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flamjam

JVC 7900 Good With Motion?

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I am looking at getting the JVC 7900 but wanted to know from JVC owners whether it is very good at motion handling. Judder really bothers me, so I would struggle with a projector that wasn't smooth!! Also wondering how quiet it runs. 

 

I have seen my friends Sony projector and the motion handling is sensational on it, but I am not too keen to buy a Sony projector for many other reasons.

 

Thanks

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hi flamjam i can only suggest go check out for yourself just as did with the sony.

 

I absolutely love the film like nature of the JVCs with both the previous gen and current gen I now own. I do say though I am not a fan of motion interpolation and frame insertion methods and what not and tend to turn all of these schemes off on projectors as absolutely abhor the opposite which is the Soap opera effect !  

 

I watched florida project on the jvc yesterday and that was shot on 35mm film ...looked absolutely amazing ! and that had kids running around etc. so motion i would say fine for me. ie i am fine with film judder ... though i would say a good part of how thats handled is actually back right upto the person behind the camera how they pan etc :) so i would say more to do with source than anything so make sure what ever considering you explore with a few different sources to see how handles and make sure comfortable with. 

 

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12 hours ago, flamjam said:

Judder really bothers me

"judder" is due to displaying 24fps content at 60Hz resulting in run-stop-run-stop uneven motion (3:2 pull down) which is dreadful and the JVC's have never done that.

Movies are 24fps with is not a high enough frame rate to provide smooth motion under all circumstances. Its up to directors and camera operators to avoid medium speed panning shots that make the low frame rate of movies obvious and most of the time they do.

JVC "Clear Motion Drive" is very effective at minimising the visible problems assosiated with low frame rate without making the movie look like 60fps video (soap opera effect). Its very effective, very natural looking and almost never causes visible artefacts. Seeing is believing.

 

If you have issues with JVC's motion handling you like movies to look like video.

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I see artifacts with Clear Motion Drive with my JVC X7000 in 2D so don't use it.

With 3D I don't notice artifacts and so the extra frames from Clear Motion Drive are very worthwhile IMO; it removes virtually all eyestrain for me in 3D.

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I have only found one scene in one movie where I have ever noticed any issue with CMD that I can remember, other then that VERY minor issue it works great and I won't watch without it ever. Cant remember what setting I am using.

 

Never watch 3D so I can't comment on it.

 

As far as I know Sony projectors didn't even have motion Interpolation available with 4K input. That would screw me as I have always fed the projector a 4K input no matter what video is playing.

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On 23/04/2018 at 11:02 PM, flamjam said:

I am looking at getting the JVC 7900 but wanted to know from JVC owners whether it is very good at motion handling. Judder really bothers me, so I would struggle with a projector that wasn't smooth!! Also wondering how quiet it runs. 

 

I have seen my friends Sony projector and the motion handling is sensational on it, but I am not too keen to buy a Sony projector for many other reasons.

 

Thanks

The Sony has a 2.5ms raw panel response and the JVC panels are 4ms, so the Sony has a bit better motion, thats a pretty well known fact out there. The JVC has a slightly longer pixel persistance than the Sony, so, motion resolution aside, which is around 300 lines in 24p for both machines, the JVC has very slightly inferior motion. DLP is by far the best, but they have many other issues which make it moot.

 

I went from a 4K Sony projector to mulitple E-Shift units, I am pretty sensitive to motion, I HATE CMD, but I find the natural 24p motion on the JVC just fine.

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11 hours ago, Javs said:

The Sony has a 2.5ms raw panel response and the JVC panels are 4ms, so the Sony has a bit better motion, thats a pretty well known fact out there. The JVC has a slightly longer pixel persistance than the Sony, so, motion resolution aside, which is around 300 lines in 24p for both machines, the JVC has very slightly inferior motion. DLP is by far the best, but they have many other issues which make it moot.

 

I went from a 4K Sony projector to mulitple E-Shift units, I am pretty sensitive to motion, I HATE CMD, but I find the natural 24p motion on the JVC just fine.

Thanks Javs, that's some good info. I have no interest in buying a Sony but was the motion was great on it. This was on an older 45.  I am just quite sensitive to motion and I'm glad to hear the JVC handles it well. 

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How about sport? Would watching NRL or AFL look good on it or should that be reserved for TV? Thanks.

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On 25/04/2018 at 8:31 AM, Javs said:

The Sony has a 2.5ms raw panel response and the JVC panels are 4ms, so the Sony has a bit better motion, thats a pretty well known fact out there.

Faster pixel response only makes motion smoothness worse and doesn't improve motion resolution at all because thats dominated by the sample and hold display system used by Sony and JVC.

Late model 3D capable Plasma TV's have almost 4 times the motion resolution of the projectors because they use plus width modualated refreshing drive and have very fast pixel response time, the result is TERRIBLY jittery motion with 24fps source. I can't stand viewing 24fps content on them without motion interpolation to smooth things out.

 

Without motion interpolation I never noticed any diferance between the Sony I used to own and the JVC's, both had much smoother motion then the 3D Plasma due to the inherent motion blur of sample and hold.

However, if smooth motion is your thing motion Interpolation is required for 24fps content, no if, no buts, without it you will see the inherent jitter.

 

LCD and OLED TV's also use sample and hold so have no better native motion resolution then the Sony or JVC projectors. Motion interpolation does improve motion resolution which is another reason to use it.

 

Sport is 50fps in OZ and doesn't really need any help from motion interpolation as far as motion smoothness is concerned, but MI does help motion resolution so can be beneficial.

Edited by Owen

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The new X-x900 models especially X7900 and 9900 

are super smooth and the clear motion features help not hinder (like older models) 

 

Ive watch Ultra BD, Apple HDR, BD, PS4, Netlifx 1080P and ist very rare to have and judder like effect at all. 

 

We had an Epson TW9300 for 2 weeks and it was freakishly bad.  

Guess we are spoiled with the X7/9 performance.  

 

The JVC LTD20 was the same but with the most stunning black depth Ive seen. 

No more of those about....

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So a stupid question I guess.. why can't they make films with a higher frame rate give 24 frames was never good enough?

They've more or less left this major flaw up to the display device manufacturers to address instead which seems a little pointless.

Have noticed a distinct ringing around images with the JVC MI turned on, the low setting is better than the high setting which should not even be an option. What is really ideal? 200hz?

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13 minutes ago, oztheatre said:

So a stupid question I guess.. why can't they make films with a higher frame rate give 24 frames was never good enough?

hi oz, can watch billy lyn that was shot 120hz and made it to uhd as 24 /60

 

as per article below, they reckon for a good part its the high frame rate that killed the movie... along with a lot of other aspects. movie making is all about a creation of 'A' reality I guess rather than the reality. 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2017/02/22/billy-lynns-long-halftime-walk-ultra-hd-blu-ray-review-when-great-picture-quality-goes-bad/#5b842077599c

 

pure eye candy though :D 

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So a stupid question I guess.. why can't they make films with a higher frame rate give 24 frames was never good enough?
They've more or less left this major flaw up to the display device manufacturers to address instead which seems a little pointless.
Have noticed a distinct ringing around images with the JVC MI turned on, the low setting is better than the high setting which should not even be an option. What is really ideal? 200hz?
You shouldn't really be using FI at all. Most directors and cinematographers I know, and I know a fair few don't like HFR video for much the same reason some of us purists don't like it. It kills the immersion, looks unnatural and fake and departs from the artistic look that they have come to love.

So I wouldn't call it a flaw at all. Its all part of the artform.

The other reason you shouldn't use FI is you are then breaking all director intent such as the carefully considered shutter speed/angle decisions used during filming as that can be very fluid through a film to enhance certain scenes In a particular way.

Try watching Saving Private Ryan and Gladiator with FI, it would be totally horrible and completely unlike what either director intended. Both those movies have very dynamic and often changing use of shutter angles to give a desired affect. All thrown out the window with FI.

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6 minutes ago, Javs said:

Try watching Saving Private Ryan

am really looking forward to Saving private ryan on UHD. all reviews showing it as a stunner re release they have done. this was original film source 35mm and no intention here to watch it with any frame interpolation or anything like it, scenes indeed like the beach scene were done at shutter speed very much with intent. infact for veterans watching it is this aspect brought home most the realities of situations like it. I think have captured an important part here. the "look" film makers trying to achieve.

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am really looking forward to Saving private ryan on UHD. all reviews showing it as a stunner re release they have done. this was original film source 35mm and no intention here to watch it with any frame interpolation or anything like it, scenes indeed like the beach scene were done at shutter speed very much with intent. infact for veterans watching it is this aspect brought home most the realities of situations like it. I think have captured an important part here. the "look" film makers trying to achieve.
I just got done watching it tonight actually and yep the shutter angles are very easy to spot if you are we sensitive to it.

Its a stunning remaster.

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16 minutes ago, Javs said:

I just got done watching it tonight actually and yep the shutter angles are very easy to spot if you are we sensitive to it.

Its a stunning remaster.

I've got gladiator coming in uhd as well. and am thinking things like the dream sequence and action scenes probably wont look right with any sort of frame interpolation.

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I've got gladiator coming in uhd as well. and am thinking things like the dream sequence and action scenes probably wont look right with any sort of frame interpolation.
Yep and a big one to look out for in Gladiator is the small fight in the opening battle with the huge Germanian barbarian.

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With regard to "Saving Private Ryan", we need to consider what Steven Spielberg was attempting to achieve by using a sort duration camera shutter to capture the action scenes, the aim was to increase motion resolution and clarity so that explosions and the like where less of a blur.

Film projected in a cinema has very high motion resolution due to the blanking period (shutter closed period) between each frame of film. Digital projectors, especially LCoS based projectors like the JVC's and Sony's, don't have a blanking period between frames because they are sample and hold displays which simply update the pixels in the image that have changed from one frame to the next, there is no black out period between frames as there is with a film projector and that limits motion resolution to about 300 lines.

 

So the extra motion resolution that was gained by a short duration shutter in the camera is mostly lost due to the projectors inherent motion blur, or more correctly the eyes motion blur when viewing sample and hold displays.

By using a good motion interpolation system we can more than double motion resolution and regain most of the clarity in the explosions and fast action that the director was trying to convey.

 

There is more to motion interpolation than motion smoothness and some systems allow motion clarity and motion smoothness to be individually adjusted for optimal results. The notion that MI is inherently flawed and should never be used is rather odd and counter productive from home cinema applications IMHO.

 

https://cinemashock.org/2012/07/30/45-degree-shutter-in-saving-private-ryan/

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I have recently tested sony vw270 (295) and JVC 7900 side by side. With the motion smoothness set to min my perception is that JVC creates considerably stronger soap opera effect for 24hz signal, which is unacceptable for me.

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