Do You Suffer From APE?

[Tassie Devil]

I penned this wisdom some months ago and it is finally printed in the Stereophile letters in the May issue.  It is the prognosis of a sufferer who has experienced over 6 decades of audio confusion.  Here it is for your comment:

 

A.P.E. - “Audio Placebo Effect”.

Symptoms: Delight at the improved sound with a new/different toy in the audio chain.

Cure:  About the only proven cure is a depleted bank balance which hinders further toy purchase.

It is often a genuine placebo effect because the sound is not necessarily any better, it is just different.  There has been no progress forward, but, although only sideways, is still regarded as a positive achievement.  Such illusions are keeping the audio industry alive and audio scribes in employment looking for even more ways of confusing an engrossed audio fraternity on how to further chase audio moonbeams.  

All this is possible because all audio components and recordings are imperfect to a greater or lesser degree so do impose a different signature on the resultant sound.  Those with extreme APE addiction, compound the problem by mixing/matching components in an effort to achieve something called synergy. Various meaningful (??) descriptions like “Ying” and “Yang” are often used as a means of describing the indescribable.

Bottom line is there is absolutely no such thing as “Absolute Sound”.  The sound heard in an auditorium is anything but absolute and varies from one seating position to another.  And a different group of musicians playing exactly the same music in that same hall will sound different. As a corollary, the placement of recording microphones, how they are mixed etc means there can be no “absolute” replication of the sound of the music in the auditorium.  That absolute simply does not exist!

So what are audiophiles chasing?  I guess the aim is to put together a set of components which reproduce recorded music to their liking and in turn, audio engineers attempt to create audio files which help achieve that.  But there again is the rub.  What one listener or engineer likes will not necessarily appeal to another because of 2 important personal variables – (1) genetics which affects brain structure as well as ear canal etc shape and function and (2) environmental exposure to music which influencers which types and natures of music that are appealing. In some situations that exposure can actually damage the delicate ear mechanism.

Enjoying music is very subjective and thus very personal.  So, don’t worry if you suffer from APE and can afford the toys.  It is a great journey and, as a nice side benefit, there is a lot of pleasure to be had from listening to reproduced music.  Go to it, I do get such enjoyment, despite being an APE sufferer myself!

[MusicOne]

With all of those 'absolutes', one can only say....absolutely! There, I said it.

 

@Tassie Devil  Excellent article, John.

[wen]

hello John, placebo seemed to hold different meaning for me, but i looked up an old(1968) collins dictionary, placebo - 'opening antiphon of the vespers for the dead, medicine given to humor, rather than cure, the patient. You are absolutly spot on

[Wimbo]

I don't care about absolute sound, coloration, room measurements and anything else that goes with audiophiliea. Presence is all I'm after and I don't really worry about it 100%. As long as I have a reason to play LP's and like them.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Wimbo

[wen]

30 minutes ago, Wimbo said:

I don't care about absolute sound, coloration, room measurements and anything else that goes with audiophiliea. Presence is all I'm after and I don't really worry about it 100%. As long as I have a reason to play LP's and like them.

the music

[audiofeline]

It's the law of diminishing returns.  When building hifi systems, the upgrades from more modest equipment will give noticeable improvements, and great joy to the owner.  As the quality and expense of the equipment increases, the quality improvement diminishes, but the audiophile is still chasing the thrill of those early upgrades which delivered so much.  So the hardware that delivered negligible improvement is considered to not be as good, and it's replaced by something that is hoped will deliver more.  But at a particular point nothing more can be obtained, only slight differences, as there is nothing which is "perfect" reproduction (there are too many variables with acoustic/recording room variation, recording variations, etc).

[LogicprObe]

 

No.

 

I suffer from LFT.

[Kaynin]

1 hour ago, LogicprObe said:

 

No.

 

I suffer from LFT.

 

Left Foot Tinea?

[LogicprObe]

5 hours ago, Kaynin said:

 

Left Foot Tinea?

No.

Spoiler

Low ****wit Tolerance

 

[PeteD]

Ah yes - this thread resonates strongly with me because I'm currently grappling with the decision to upgrade my DAC - an outlay of more than $2,000. Fortunately, the vendor of the product I am most interested in has kindly offered to allow me to test a Loaner unit in my own environment. I think most would agree that this is the only way to fully ascertain any improvements in SQ and the degree of same.

 

To compare my current DAC with the new one I plan to set up a playlist of songs that have "problems" - songs that sound harsh or exhibit "wall of sound" qualities where the separate instruments are not well defined, as well as a few that already sound totally awesome on my system. I might even get someone to help by swapping units when I am not in the room so it's a proper "blind" test.

[TerryO]

Having only been back into Hifi for just over a year after a 25 plus year absence I have found myself repeatedly in this position you describe about mixing and matching while looking for that ever elusive synergy. 

 

I have after a few false starts taken a different approach, all be it a potentially even more expensive one, I have started to go down the path of putting together a system that is big on detail and accuracy which is better suited to some genres of music and certain listening moods. At the same time I am putting together a system that is more euphoric and coloured, but is marvelous for a shared relaxing evening with a couple of big glasses of red with the better half while listening to (insert name) of your favourite female vocalist. 

 

In my brief time and experience of Hifi, for me anyway, I have not been able to put together one system that delivers on everything. Who knows this extravagance could end up with three or four quite different systems yet, I hope not though.

 

Anyway what ever direction any of us go in is fine as long as we are enjoying the trip, after all we all are searching for those elusive moon beams you speak about, but for me two different systems has taken me much closer to achieving that most highly sought after synergy than trying to achieve it all in one.

 

cheers Terry

Edited April 21, 2018 by TerryO

[audiofeline]

44 minutes ago, PeteD said:

...To compare my current DAC with the new one I plan to set up a playlist of songs that have "problems" - songs that sound harsh or exhibit "wall of sound" qualities where the separate instruments are not well defined, as well as a few that already sound totally awesome on my system...

Always remember in your auditioning that the "problems" in some of your songs can be in the recording and/or mastering, so may never sound good. 

 

[you are probably aware of this anyway!]

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by audiofeline

[PeteD]

6 minutes ago, audiofeline said:

Always remember in your auditioning that the "problems" in some of your songs can be in the recording and/or mastering, so may never sound good. 

 

[you are probably aware of this anyway!]

 

Yes indeed, I remember the first CD I bought way back when they were the next big thing. After years of listening to Vinyl, I hated the sound of that first CD (Phil Collins: No Jacket Required) - it was very harsh compared to the Vinyl equivalent. And yes again - it was all about the mastering process in the studio. It took a few years for the recording industry to come to terms with what they needed to do to make CDs sound good.

[Tassie Devil]

30 minutes ago, PeteD said:

Yes indeed, I remember the first CD I bought way back when they were the next big thing. After years of listening to Vinyl, I hated the sound of that first CD (Phil Collins: No Jacket Required) - it was very harsh compared to the Vinyl equivalent. And yes again - it was all about the mastering process in the studio. It took a few years for the recording industry to come to terms with what they needed to do to make CDs sound good.

I'm not denying there are distortions in some recordings BUT my experience is that they are less than I once thought.  I have in mind one piano CD, purchased a long time ago, that I posted  negatively about on a forum but have since found it to be fine.

 

Apologies for getting on my hobby horse, but I blame this situation on faulty DACs, and they had me hating digital for a decade or more.  Not that all reproduction is now perfect, but via the LKS DA-004 it is the best I've ever experienced.  As I said in the first post of the thread, there is no absolute sound,  so we should just seek sound reproduction we find satisfying.  But curse the urge to make it better as this often is not the result of large dollar expenditure.

[PeteD]

22 minutes ago, Tassie Devil said:

Apologies for getting on my hobby horse, but I blame this situation on faulty DACs, and they had me hating digital for a decade or more.  

 

If the Phil Collins CD sounded harsh compared to other CDs (played on the same Phillips CD Player) from bands such as Ry Cooder and Donald Fagan, which were incredibly smooth, then I'm suggesting that the DAC was not at fault. Just plain old expertise (or lack thereof) in the Mastering process is more likely the cause.

[rocky500]

I am after a emotional connect to the music. An escape to get lost in the music for my listening sessions.

When my system is not right (which has happened a lot over the years) I do not get drawn into the music as much.

Thats when I tend to look at upgrades to see if I can make my listening sessions better. Sometimes it could be as little as couple of % better but that can make all the difference. 

 

Just visited a local @Chanh (thanks Chanh for the pleasure) to listen to his system and it was something else. All I wanted to do was listen to more music. I could see myself getting lost in that room for many many hours every day.

It just sounded so right and the system just disappeared and was left with just the music. It moved me more than my system ever has. Just awesome.

 

Some say Music listening at its best can be like taking great drugs. Can be a nice escape without the side effects ........ except maybe on the wallet.

 

[MattyW]

On 15/04/2018 at 10:55 PM, audiofeline said:

It's the law of diminishing returns.  When building hifi systems, the upgrades from more modest equipment will give noticeable improvements, and great joy to the owner.  As the quality and expense of the equipment increases, the quality improvement diminishes, but the audiophile is still chasing the thrill of those early upgrades which delivered so much.  So the hardware that delivered negligible improvement is considered to not be as good, and it's replaced by something that is hoped will deliver more.  But at a particular point nothing more can be obtained, only slight differences, as there is nothing which is "perfect" reproduction (there are too many variables with acoustic/recording room variation, recording variations, etc).

Mmmm, for me I simply start assembling another system around the house with a different approach to the last. 5 systems and counting. Only 3 have reached that point where I can't be bothered upgrading further and I love all 3. My main is the best performer, as it should be. I'm well and truly done upgrading though. Sounds incredible as it is. 

[wen]

I have listened to many systems over the years , some far better, others?, when i got back home and listened to mine, it made me understand better where i was at on my own journey

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

On 16/04/2018 at 11:44 AM, rocky500 said:

I am after a emotional connect to the music. An escape to get lost in the music for my listening sessions.

When my system is not right (which has happened a lot over the years) I do not get drawn into the music as much.

Thats when I tend to look at upgrades to see if I can make my listening sessions better. Sometimes it could be as little as couple of % better but that can make all the difference. 

 

Just visited a local @Chanh (thanks Chanh for the pleasure) to listen to his system and it was something else. All I wanted to do was listen to more music. I could see myself getting lost in that room for many many hours every day.

It just sounded so right and the system just disappeared and was left with just the music. It moved me more than my system ever has. Just awesome.

 

Some say Music listening at its best can be like taking great drugs. Can be a nice escape without the side effects ........ except maybe on the wallet.

 

Very well said, that emotional connect and losing your self in the music is why is why I do it. Even with my modest system/s I have felt it and strangely sometimes it comes out of the blue without changing anything. I'll listen to a song one day and it gives me nothing, the next day it's like WOW where did that come from?

 

volume, time of day, how many beers Ive had, who's in the room will also contribute!

[Tassie Devil]

9 hours ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Very well said, that emotional connect and losing your self in the music is why is why I do it. Even with my modest system/s I have felt it and strangely sometimes it comes out of the blue without changing anything. I'll listen to a song one day and it gives me nothing, the next day it's like WOW where did that come from?

 

volume, time of day, how many beers Ive had, who's in the room will also contribute!

All too true.  Our moods are variable due to a large number of factors, some in our control, others not.  What we enjoy one day we might not enjoy the next.  Enjoyment of music and its reproduction via a system is very subjective so opinions are personal and should not be extrapolated generally.  And this makes arriving at a satisfactory system very challenging when one cannot audition before buying and can only process the opinion of others as a guide.

[jeromelang]

This article, or essay - a very sad indictment of ownself's listening abilities...

Edited April 19, 2018 by jeromelang

[Kurti]

Totally good article!

Made me think of all these double blind tests with wines and beers.

Some University did double blind tests with amps and dacs, evaluated by self declared audiophiles.

The results were all over the place with lower cost amps and dacs indistinguishable from the very expensive ones.

[SmokinJoe]

On 16/04/2018 at 8:58 AM, PeteD said:

To compare my current DAC with the new one I plan to set up a playlist of songs that have "problems" - songs that sound harsh or exhibit "wall of sound" qualities where the separate instruments are not well defined, as well as a few that already sound totally awesome on my system.

Which "problems" songs will you use?

[PeteD]

7 hours ago, SmokinJoe said:

Which "problems" songs will you use?

Good question. Some of the Foo Fighter's stuff comes to mind and also a couple of songs on Noel Gallagher's High Flying Birds album. I'll have to spend some time going through the library in an effort to putting together an eclectic playlist. Some songs will have great bass and kick drum whereas others will showcase higher end instruments such as snare, cymbal and lead guitar. Then, of course, there are voice and acoustic strings etc.

 

To be honest I'm still wondering why I'm even considering upgrading because I'm very happy with the overall quality of my system. As previously stated, there will need to be a significant improvement to justify the expense. The Yamaha A-S1100 amp packs a nice clean punch and the Pro-9TL Transmission Line speakers have been praised by many including a couple of sound engineers - I'm definitely not considering replacing them any time soon.

 

Ok, so unlike a few guys on this forum I haven't spent $50,000 or more on my system but I am also convinced that some of the high priced gear out there is not worth the money. There is a good deal of snake oil flowing around the Hi-Fi industry which only makes the whole process of evaluation more difficult. I will continue to keep in mind the importance of testing prospective gear in my own environment as well as factoring in the expert opinions of contributors to this forum.

   

[Frameperfect]

"Delight at the improved sound with a new/different toy in the audio chain.

Cure:  About the only proven cure is a depleted bank balance which hinders further toy purchase."

 

Kind of. I don't recall if it was in my introduction thread, or it was my first thread on SNA, but a member warned me to not go chasing the dragon. To buy a moderate amplifier and speakers and just enjoy.

 

DACs I've owned - Onboard - Firefly - Klein Dac - Schiit Bitfrost - Schiit Gungnir Multibit - Cambridge Dacmagic. I honestly can't say I can perceive a meaningful difference, between the Gungnir, the Klein and the Dacmagic. And in the same way, the difference power treatment makes, I'm convinced you get a very small change, but like the Dacs, the perceived difference, if any, is not worth the price tag.

 

Amplifiers - Still have my first purchase. I did come very close to buying 3 different amps, but forced myself not to each time, and now that I look back on it, with a lot more experience in other systems and products, I'm very pleased I stayed with my amplifier. 

 

Speakers - 4 changes. I think speakers are something you can change, and be really be happy with the results. I had Neumann actives that blew my mind and got me into caring about audio. I sold them to buy hifi because I was done with the flat response. Next was some Osbournes which I really disliked and promptly resold. Next was the VA Haydns paired to a Focal Electra Subwoofer. The store screwed me on the subwoofer (they had swapped out the amplifier from a different Focal subwoofer). This was fortuitous as I rarely wanted the sub on in the first place, I thought it was too much bass. I used the money to buy VA Beethoven's. I still have the bass turned down on the amplifier because the room I'm in just can't handle what these floor standers puts out. To be honest, the sound is the same as the Haydn's, just bigger.

 

Do I want to move up the ladder to the VA Concerts? Absolutely. Am I tempted to switch into a Focal bookshelf / sub pairing; I'd be lying to say no. Will I? Probably not. I think speakers are the hardest second hand equipment to move. I think its a pain in the ass getting them sold. And I also think your room limitations are 1/3 of good sound, packing bigger speakers or a sub into the wrong room is a step back.

 

So, kind of. At the end of the day the music sounds excellent. Desire to switch, 'upgrade', 'sidegrade' is always there. But if the music sounds excellent then why do I have this desire to switch? And that's enough of a point to keep me somewhat disciplined. 

 

Oh and that's 2 channel. When it comes to headphones I'm guilty as sin haha.