hugo_wilco Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Well it’s been nearly a decade of pure analog playback and its time to dip my toe in the water with SUT. I have recently reinstalled my Denon 103r. I had forgotten how musical and communicative this cartridge is and thought I might try a SUT. Would love over to hear members experiences particularly (but not exclusively) with Jensen SUTs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereonut Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Although I don't have a 103/R any longer, my old Shindo/Triad SUT was a terrific match, also matched well with my Soundsmith 103/R cart. SN 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal beat Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 I have both these Denon SUT's designed for the 103. They sound good Denon AU-300LC And Denon AU-320 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graceman Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 ..and I use the Denon AU-310 which also sounds good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryffles Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 I have the Denon AU340 which is nice. Uses Tamura TKS83 transformers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugo_wilco Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 Thanks for the posts guys. Just trying to work out how much gain is need. It’s only .25mv output. Right now I’m using the Goldnote ph-10 (awesome phononstage BTW) at 68db gain. Would be using the SUT with a tube MM phono with about 40db gain so I’m thinking I need a 1:30 SUT???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanArn Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 A SUT with a 1:10 step up ratio would be sufficient providing the impedances suit the cartridge load and at the same time, the lowest noise range impedance match requirement of the valve pre-amp. There was a Philips EG 9000 SUT which is a versatile, high quality item, available in the Wanted to Sell section, some time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graceman Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) Not sure you would find a good match with 1:30 gain. That would drop the loading below 100 ohms which is below the recommended minimum. A 1:20 would be more like it. I have tried 1:16 which gives about 180 ohms but prefer the 1:10 (470 ohms) as a better match in my system. My valve phono only has 44db gain. Edited April 14, 2018 by Graceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugo_wilco Posted April 14, 2018 Author Share Posted April 14, 2018 27 minutes ago, Graceman said: Not sure you would find a good match with 1:30 gain. That would drop the loading below 100 ohms which is below the recommended minimum. A 1:20 would be more like it. I have tried 1:16 which gives about 180 ohms but prefer the 1:10 (470 ohms) as a better match in my system. My valve phono only has 44db gain. Isn’t that only a total of 54db in your system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graceman Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 (edited) A 1:10 ratio gives 20db of gain, a 1:20 will give 26db and a 1:30 about 30db gain. It's personal taste I guess. Edited April 14, 2018 by Graceman correction to 1:10 gain! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kensell21 Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 I’ve been thinking going to a 103 with my next cartridge replacement I’ve heard good reports of the Auditorium A23 SUT which is the one I’ll consider when the time comes. Not sure what price range your looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 On 4/13/2018 at 5:24 PM, hugo_wilco said: Thanks for the posts guys. Just trying to work out how much gain is need. It’s only .25mv output. Right now I’m using the Goldnote ph-10 (awesome phononstage BTW) at 68db gain. Would be using the SUT with a tube MM phono with about 40db gain so I’m thinking I need a 1:30 SUT???? For a 0.25mV LOMC ... why not try a headamp rather than a SUT? You can then load the cart directly with the res value of your choice, rather than having to take into account the "coil ratio squared" factor of a SUT. Andy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Katz Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 For a 0.25mV LOMC ... why not try a headamp rather than a SUT? [emoji4] You can then load the cart directly with the res value of your choice, rather than having to take into account the "coil ratio squared" factor of a SUT. Andy Dean, If want to see or hear the head amp Andy is talking about, you can come by and listen to it if you have time. The flexibility of the head amp l like, is I can load it to the genre of music I’m listening to. I was using a SUT with my Benz LP but I wanted the flexibility of more loading options. I couldn’t be happier! Bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugo_wilco Posted April 16, 2018 Author Share Posted April 16, 2018 Thanks Bill. PM sent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Analysis said: Dean, If want to see or hear the head amp Andy is talking about, you can come by and listen to it if you have time. The flexibility of the head amp l like, is I can load it to the genre of music I’m listening to. I was using a SUT with my Benz LP but I wanted the flexibility of more loading options. I couldn’t be happier! Bill Thanks, Bill. 41 minutes ago, hugo_wilco said: Thanks Bill. PM sent The gain of the 'Paris' headamp has a dB range which is set by certain resistor values to cope with different cart outputs. For a 0.25mV LOMC output, I suggest a x20 gain is required (to deliver 5mV which is the default for an MM phono stage input which has 40B gain). Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchlim Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) Ok base on my calculation, the Denon DL103R output after the x of SUT x10 = 2.4 mv x15 = 3.5 mv x20 = 4.5 mv x30 = 5.9 mv x40 = 6.8 mv with my Bob SUT, it is prefect with x30 or x20 Edited April 17, 2018 by mitchlim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchlim Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 https://www.bobsdevices.com/Moving-Coil-Step-Up-Transformers/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magical Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 You should try comparing a 103 to a modern design ortofon or (if you can afford it) a van den hul and you'll never go back. I think the Denon got its rep as it was used to by pros which dosn't actually mean it sounds good, it's very robust where others are delicate (is the clearaudios which I've tried). Luckily ive be fortunate to compare literally dozens of cartridges as a ex retailer of some if the best, snd the denon dosnt rate on sound. Even an old Kisiki beats the hell out of it. Ifor fun I scope cantilevers to check them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm0 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 On 2018-04-13 at 5:24 PM, hugo_wilco said: ...Just trying to work out how much gain is need. It’s only .25mv output...... Sorry that I come to the party so late. I don't think there is a clear answer based on my experience. It is easy to work out the numbers on the stepped up output and load seen by the cartridge. But the general accepted wisdom may not give the best sound. Let me share my recent surprised experience after spinning vinyl for decades. In the past, I first picked the step up ratio to observe the phono input limit (set by accepted wisdom) of 10 mV and then proceed to adjust the loading. (Of course, there are a lot of debate about the pros and cons of the latter.) Lately I read about the SUT from Bobs Devices that only offers 40x step up ratio, a departure from his previous switchable 20x/40x. I then revisited the spec of the Shelter SUT 411. Its step up ratio is 32db (=40x) while my Shelter 901 cartridge has an output of 0.5 mV. That makes a phono input of 20 mV, which is well beyond the aforementioned 10 mV limit. (Note: my preamp phono has an exceptional high overload limit of 200mV!!) That made me think: "Have I been wrong all these years following traditional wisdom?" The only way to find out is trial. Immediate effects: more solid bass, smoother strings, airier vocals and more musical all around. I have stuck with it since. Needless to say, the load changed from 117 to under 30 ohms. I had tried both when I was using 20x, but definitely 40x is a marked improvement. Perhaps one more point I should stress. No switching. Hard wire your turn ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts