SGR Audio Owners & Discussion Thread

[Drizt]

Hi All,

I have had my subs for many many months now and I'm acutely aware of their capabilities and limitations (though few). I thought I would take the time to share my experiences. I have always lusted over a pair of TC Sounds 18" LMS-Ultra 5400 sub-woofers but at US$1800 a driver I was never going to have them at this point in my life. Research lead me to the steal of our time being the Exodus Audio Maelstrom-X sub-woofers. Granted for $1300 plus you could build your own Maelstrom-X sub-woofer if you have the contacts and know how like hsv on this forum but I didn't have the time, resources or space to DIY. So I turned to my trusted friends at SGR to build the sub-woofers to my requirements and within my budget. Knowing this I contacted Stuart with regards to my requirements and he helped come up with a design that would achieve my goals.

Stuart and I came up with a design that was relatively small given the driver size but still had the performance levels I desired. Physics determines that you can only ever realistically have two of the following three; Small, Loud & Low. So given my constraints with regards to size Low was always going to be the one that had to give way. Thankfully though the Mealstrom-X is a ridiculously capable driver and even with a small box it is still able to provide silly output even below 20Hz. Modelling my driver and box size shows that it can produce 120dB of output about 25Hz and at 20-15hz and below it can still produce 110dB which is more than most sub-woofers can achieve at their peak. This is the only down side to my small sealed sub. Granted its only a very minor downside and the only real alternatives are to go LLT which triples the box size or go with passive radiators which doubles the price.

Now possibly I made a mistake when it came to buying the amplification the first time round due to the fan noise produced by the amps. I bought the Quest 3004 pro amp that can deliver 1100W into 4ohms per channel but unfortunately I found that the fans run constantly and when the amp works pretty hard the fans produce quite a bit of noise (even after the loud scenes have finished and you enter a quiet scene). As an aside, I was unofficially told by the Quest technicians that it can actually produce almost 2000W per channel into 4ohms as is it very underrated out of the factory. Even with 9dB of boost via Audyssey on my DHC-9.9 at near reference levels I never saw the amp light up it pre-clipping lights let alone the clipping lights. Seriously, the subs and amps were well within their operating spec even with lot of EQ and near reference levels. If you can put the Quest in a different room it would seriously be the perfect amp for running a pair of these subs.

Given my unhappiness with the Quests fan noise I began to search for alternatives. My search lead me to the either the Yamaha P7000S SII (2 x 1100W @ 4ohms) or a second hand Crown K2 (2 x 800W @ 4ohms). The beauty of the K2 is that it is passively cooled which means it has no fans, which = dead quiet. But the Yamaha is also dead silent until the amp determines that it really needs to have its fans kick in. From the various reports I have read the yamaha hardly ever has to have its fans kick and for most people they never actually do. Luckily for me I found a very friendly fellow on this forum to sell me his second hand Crown K2 at a great price. And so far I have not had any problems even though the amp is only rated to 800W a channel. That said Im currently not running any EQ as my Audyssey Mic died (no idea how or why). So its possible that with EQ at the extreme low end I could run out of steam, though time will tell.

My subs are my favorite possession now, I love them For HT and HIFI I find that great subs are absolutely paramount to having a fully immersive experience. Great subs really do add that extra level or realism that makes HT and HIFI so palpable. To get the most out of your system you need subs with lots of head room so that you can add that extra level or realism by EQ'ing out any of those room anomalies.

To sum up... I LOVE MY SUBS

Here are some pics of my system.

Excuse the flash making the grills see through on my mains.

Here are the subs facing forward without their grills on.

And here are the subs facing inwards where they sound and measure the best.

My subs cost me RRP $2k per passive sub.

If you were so inclined you could buy two Behringer EP4000 subs (+ fan mod to make them much quieter) to run these subs for the same price or less than a single Yamaha P7000S SII or Quest 3004.

Theres so many options.

I'm glad I supported an Australian company to build my subs when I couldn't do it myself.

[kesa32]

Hi Dritz, What did you end up doing with the Quest 3004? , l have a ep2500 which l modded the fan on ( still have to get somthing better than the one l got ) also l had a mate at work make me a thermal switch which helps as well by turning the fan on and off rather than running constantly.

The K2's are nice , l was looking for one when l was building my IB sub , unfortunately ( as always ) it was too expensive at the time so l went the ep2500 ( has'nt missed a beat )

Your subs looks great mate , SGR make nice stuff , and l agree subs make the whole deal worthwhile ( esp movies )

cheers ken

[kdoot]

Holy jeebus. Those things make music?

[Drizt]

Indeed they do. The music is very much more enjoyable with them than without them. I've had a few people over now to hear the system in various configurations; Joz, Chickenism, mr-happy-pants, Rippingdragon, chipy2k (+wife) and a couple others. So perhaps they could give their assessment of the subs with regards to their fine 2ch capabilities. Im currently not using any EQ in the system, but when I have its been that extra bit better in the bass that makes it worthwhile.

Holy jeebus. Those things make music?

[Drizt]

Hi Dritz, What did you end up doing with the Quest 3004?

I ended up selling it to a fellow forum member.

l have a ep2500 which l modded the fan on ( still have to get somthing better than the one l got ) also l had a mate at work make me a thermal switch which helps as well by turning the fan on and off rather than running constantly.

hsv on the DTV forum says his are silent after doing the fan mod.

The K2's are nice , l was looking for one when l was building my IB sub , unfortunately ( as always ) it was too expensive at the time so l went the ep2500 ( has'nt missed a beat )

K2's were very expensive when they first came out, and they rarely come up second hand. I just got lucky.

Your subs looks great mate , SGR make nice stuff , and l agree subs make the whole deal worthwhile ( esp movies ), cheers ken

Thank you very much for the compliments mate

[Drizt]

Anyone else received theirs yet?

Any pics / thoughts ?

[Grumpy]

Nice room, but i thought you mentioned that the subs were a "small box". Holy crap they look HUGE.

[Drizt]

Nice room, but i thought you mentioned that the subs were a "small box". Holy crap they look HUGE.

Thanks for the compliments Grumpy. You get used to the size very very quickly

[Gee Emm]

I have heard these subs

They are very impressive

I liked them a lot!

[jeffpr]

is that 2000 for 1 speaker + 1 enclosure + 1 amp?

[Kevin]

I distinctly remember your first posts on Audioenz asking about Osborn Interludes - you have come some way since then. I think that I have bought ahhhh ... nothing in that time.

Looking great Drizt and good to see you posting again.

Kevin

[Jenski]

Thanks for the compliments mate. It sure has been a steep journey. Surely you have bought something? I spose you started with lots lots more than most, how many systems do you have again ?

Edit: Sorry. Forgot to log Jen out and I didn't check.

I distinctly remember your first posts on Audioenz asking about Osborn Interludes - you have come some way since then. I think that I have bought ahhhh ... nothing in that time.

Looking great Drizt and good to see you posting again.

Kevin

[Drizt]

Thats RRP $2k for the Driver + box with its stanless steel feet and protector disks if you need them like I do for floorboards. Of course SGR can custom the sub to your own requirements so prices can change depending on what you require.

is that 2000 for 1 speaker + 1 enclosure + 1 amp?

[tricka]

Very nice mate. Congratulations: I bet it sounds awesome: I agree - mo'bass is a good thing.

[Drizt]

Very nice mate. Congratulations: I bet it sounds awesome: I agree - mo'bass is a good thing.

Thanks mate, we are very pleased with it. Still want to build up the HT side of it more, but time and money....

[vic]

Hi Drizt,

How much better is the TC 18 inch LMS 5400 ultra than the Maelstrom x,used in your subs ie db level increase,overload margin etc.

Like yourself diy is not really an option for me,so when I upgrade my subs(a while away,upgrading other things 1st), I will look at sgr etc building something for me.Having spent 30k plus in subs,your sgr will no doubt,would best 2,or even 4 subs I have.(we live and learn).Looking at giant size,400l to 1000l,as long as it can fit thru the doors.I will get advice etc on best size to match driver etc.Having 110db plus at 10hz is the goal at listening position.Thinking 2,2x18 unless just 2 ,18inch can do this.The quaser array,diy cost was approx 60k US,for 20 subs.3k for each sub(sounds cheap per unit).He used expensive materials,wood granite etc so no doubt,it could be built much cheaper for maybe a silght loss in sound quality?

Oz made subs,and DIY subs makes sense, with the retail $ on imported subs and their lack of db,s below 25hz.I know which I will be choosing next time.

Cheers Victor.

[Drizt]

Realistically the LMS-Ultra costs three times as much as the Maelstrom-X drivers, and in reality there are no where near three times as good. There are some out there that would say that a single 21" Maelstrom-X is better than a single LMS-Ultra.

For you I would suggest two sealed 300L single driver 21" Maelstrom-X subwoofers which would still be cheaper than one LMS-Ultra driver.

Another option would be to get LLT (Large Low Tuned) 18" Maelstrom-X subwoofers which would more than fulfil your requirements.

Talk to Stuart, he can run you through the various models.

[Kevin]

I guess you are right with respect to gear and joining forums - our systems were pretty much sorted by the time audio forums were really getting going.

It has been interesting watching your systems developm with the level of information and opinion you can access vie the internet - quite different to when we bought our first system in 1987. I guess that a lot of the reason that nothing has been purchased in the last few years is that there are plenty of other demands on the finances and it is also pretty expensive to make a substantial improvement. Easy to make changes but not so easy to genuinely improve the overall experience.

You are right about your steep journey - I suspect you may well pause for some time now.

Kevin

Thanks for the compliments mate. It sure has been a steep journey. Surely you have bought something? I spose you started with lots lots more than most, how many systems do you have again ?

Edit: Sorry. Forgot to log Jen out and I didn't check.

[Mika75]

I have always lusted over a pair of TC Sounds 18" LMS-Ultra 5400 sub-woofers but at US$1800 a driver I was never going to have them at this point in my life.

Yes the TC Sounds are very expensive and are undisputedly the best drivers in the world... but they also build drivers for SoundSplinter, the RL-p18 utilises the same Linear Motor technology for just $420.00 US compared to the Exodus Audio Maelstrom at $451.00

It seems we just don't have the right Importer...yet

[Drizt]

Your right, I won't be changing much other than adding to the existing kit. Got my HT kit to build upon

I guess you are right with respect to gear and joining forums - our systems were pretty much sorted by the time audio forums were really getting going.

It has been interesting watching your systems developm with the level of information and opinion you can access vie the internet - quite different to when we bought our first system in 1987. I guess that a lot of the reason that nothing has been purchased in the last few years is that there are plenty of other demands on the finances and it is also pretty expensive to make a substantial improvement. Easy to make changes but not so easy to genuinely improve the overall experience.

You are right about your steep journey - I suspect you may well pause for some time now.

Kevin

[Guest JohnA]

i really do need to get around to listen to these and your complete setup. Also good excuse to give you your jacket back.

[Drizt]

Your welcome to come over mate any time, just give me a buzz.

Its not a traditional hifi setup like yours (Your setup in your room is just devine) and theres no vinyl so not sure if its going to be your cup of coffee. But it will be good to catch up anyways.

i really do need to get around to listen to these and your complete setup. Also good excuse to give you your jacket back.

[Drizt]

Vic,

Just following up on your questions somewhat further...

Here is some links to lonelyraven's 425L sealed 21" Maelstrom-X DIY sub (details / pics / FR graphs etc.)

Frequency response graph

Some pictures of his sub in the raw to give you some idea of the sheer size of the thing

Ill gather some more info with regards to some LLT designs which would produce more of the below 20Hz content and get back to you.

Realistically the LMS-Ultra costs three times as much as the Maelstrom-X drivers, and in reality there are no where near three times as good. There are some out there that would say that a single 21" Maelstrom-X is better than a single LMS-Ultra.

For you I would suggest two sealed 300L single driver 21" Maelstrom-X subwoofers which would still be cheaper than one LMS-Ultra driver.

Another option would be to get LLT (Large Low Tuned) 18" Maelstrom-X subwoofers which would more than fulfil your requirements.

Talk to Stuart, he can run you through the various models.

[Guest Peter the Greek]

Nice subs - did you consider the Danley DTS10, they're doing a DIY kit ATM. about US$1k, not sure about freight

No EQ? DSP? I dont see the point in multiple subs if you're not going the whole hog.....or were you just after massive SPL?

Edited May 23, 2010 by Peter the Greek

[Drizt]

@#$# dammit.... I just lost the post I had typed up... so this one will be shorter

I did consider it but decided that the Maelstrom-X's were exactly what I wanted. Also the fact that I could have them built to my custom requirements made a compelling argument for me going that way.

The only reason I'm not using EQ right now is because the Audyssey mic died, no idea on how or why. I will be purchasing the audyssey pro kit so I will report back with some REW measurements after I have had time to play with it.

Before the Audyssey mic died I was able to verify with REW sweeps that I had flat response from 15-100Hz, which is very nice indeed

Here is a REW plot of the subs facing forward vs. subs facing the HT unit (like in the pictures from the first post)

With the subs facing the HT unit there were a few peaks, but these were easily pulled down via EQ to get a flat response. Boosting the very bottom end resulted in flat to 15Hz. Even though it required quite a bit of EQ, the subs and amps are more than capable with handling it, so no worries on that front.

Its better to find the naturally flattest response in the room by moving the subs around than to just plonk the subs down and hope that EQ can fix whatever room anomolies are thrown your way. In fact I have a thread on DTV regarding this very topic -> The Importance Of Subwoofer Placement Before Eq..., Measurements make it so much easier!