JVC 4K E-shift & UHD?

[Owen]

9 hours ago, Satanica said:

Also, I question whether it actually sharpens as "PART Of the upscaling process"

No one except the developers know exactly what is happening. The luma and chroma sharpening controls in the "resize and aspect" section have no effect unless scaling is selected, so make of that what you will.

MTF correction is required when scaling images but normally the amount and type of sharpening is fixed, in FFDShow's case it's not.

 

9 hours ago, Satanica said:

I know your preferred method is good as I've seen it, but I think MadVR using NGU is better. 

One man's "better" is another man's "worse", and thats the case here. I don't give a rats how the end result is achieved or what name it is given, its the end result that matters.

 

When we have discussed this in the past it was clear to me that you like a much more aggressively sharpened look then me and MadVR certainly can provide that. However thats exactly the opposite of what I want, if I can tell the image has been sharpened its a fail. Subtlety and naturalness is everything in my book and thats where FFDShow wins hands down.

 

The only sharpening function I use in MadVR is "enhance detail", which is a high frequency booster, and only on very clean video source. I don't want the edges in the image tampered with and "LumaSharpen" is very ugly.

[Javs]

54 minutes ago, Owen said:

When we have discussed this in the past it was clear to me that you like a much more aggressively sharpened look then me and MadVR certainly can provide that. However thats exactly the opposite of what I want, if I can tell the image has been sharpened its a fail. Subtlety and naturalness is everything in my book and thats where FFDShow wins hands down.

Thats why there is also NGU Anti-Alias and NGU soft.

[Owen]

Mate, its the end result that matters and thats a combination of up scaling AND sharpening. Now MadVR's upscaling is fine but its sharpening functions leave a LOT to be desired and I consider them next to useless. 

To use FFDShow's superior sharpening that lifts MTF over a wide range of spatial frequencies FFDShow MUST do the upscaling so MadVR is not an option.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Owen

[oztheatre]

On 08/04/2018 at 1:37 PM, mdm1979 said:

 

I own a JVC 500x 4K E-shift proj and am wondering if I buy a UHD player will I be able to project UHD content?

 

Probably a stupid question but searching the web for a straight answer was a pain.

How's the pain now? any better? 

[Rogotune]

On 08/04/2018 at 11:37 AM, mdm1979 said:

 

I own a JVC 500x 4K E-shift proj and am wondering if I buy a UHD player will I be able to project UHD content?

 

Probably a stupid question but searching the web for a straight answer was a pain.

UHD is a number of things 

 

1- 4K res 

2- Wide Color Gamut (WCG)  

3-  High Dynamic Range (HDR)

4- Deep colour 10bit colour for more shades of colour

5- High Framerates

 

The early JVC series did not respond to most of these features until the new HDMI 2.0 X-x500 series ie - X-5500

Although has the 4K shift resolution (one out of 5 ULTRA features)   

 

Not sure what model you have is it the DLA-X500 ?

 

HDR and wide color is the real hero of UHD without this the benefits would be limited to just pixels.

More the merrier, but not a game changer.     

 

 

[Javs]

35 minutes ago, Owen said:

Mate, its the end result that matters and thats a combination of up scaling AND sharpening. Now MadVR's upscaling is fine but its sharpening functions leave a LOT to be desired and I consider them next to useless. 

To use FFDShow's superior sharpening that lifts MTF over a wide range of spatial frequencies FFDShow MUST do the upscaling so MadVR is not an option.

Indeed the end result is what matters. Again, I have never seen NGU bested so far any comparison I have seen, unless you are willing to show some evidence to the contrary?

 

BTW You are not supposed to use the sharpening tab functions along with NGU, Madshi made that fairly clear when NGU was released, that's part of the point of it, its actually built into the algorithm. The sharpening tabs are detrimental to NGU's results.
 

You must be the only person on the internet I know of that think MadVR's results are crap. Anyway, you are set in your ways

[Javs]

UHD is a number of things 

 

1- 4K res 

2- Wide Color Gamut (WCG)  

3-  High Dynamic Range (HDR)

4- Deep colour 10bit colour for more shades of colour

5- High Framerates

 

The early JVC series did not respond to most of these features until the new HDMI 2.0 X-x500 series ie - X-5500

Although has the 4K shift resolution (one out of 5 ULTRA features)   

 

Not sure what model you have is it the DLA-X500 ?

 

HDR and wide color is the real hero of UHD without this the benefits would be limited to just pixels.

More the merrier, but not a game changer.     

 

 

E-Shift actually made a bit of a quantum leap in resolving power with the X5000/X7000/X9000 series too when they moved to E-Shift 4. I actually find it sharper and superior to E-Shift 5 too.

 

MadVR's HDR tone mapping is now becoming excellent and you can use the Arve curves with it to produce stellar HDR image on any display now, so with older models if you really want to view the new format you totally can.

 

I have been a big part of that process to help Madshi improve it over at AVS, you can follow that thread here:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector.html

 

 

[betty boop]

9 minutes ago, ThoseCinemaguys said:

The early JVC series did not respond to most of these features until the new HDMI 2.0 X-x500 series ie - X-5500

Just one little correction it was Xx000 series that brought these with the new e-shift for uhd, The 18gbps hdmi chipset necessary, Wcg, and HDR

 

as a note the X5x00 series haven’t quite covered dci-p3 colour space or had quite the output abd contrast capability that x7x00 and x9x00 have had but still the base model makes fir an astounding item to tackle new uhd sourced media via disc and streaming we are lucky to have these days 

[betty boop]

3 minutes ago, Javs said:

E-Shift actually made a bit of a quantum leap in resolving power with the X5500/X7500/X9500 series too when they moved to E-Shift 4. I actually find it sharper and superior to E-Shift 5 too.

They moved  to eshift 4 with the x5000/7000/9000 series

 

But yes have read reports of eshift 5 of the x5900,x7900,x9900 not quite upto snuff of previous units

[Javs]

They moved  to eshift 4 with the x5000/7000/9000 series
 
But yes have read reports of eshift 5 of the x5900,x7900,x9900 not quite upto snuff of previous units [emoji4]

Sorry yes that's actually what I meant to say, the op has an x500.

I've had a x7000, x9500(current) and two x9900's. My 9500 is the cream of the crop.

[TP1]

On 9/5/2018 at 6:46 PM, Owen said:

You are doing an apples to oranges comparison mate. You CANNOT compare content that has been mastered differently and come to the conclusion that the colour diferances you are seeing are due to WCG, thats ridiculous.

WRONG  - it was the same material displayed with and without WCG

 

On 9/5/2018 at 6:46 PM, Owen said:

As for the resolution thing, I can see a difference with real 4K Bluray compared to 1080 Bluray if I just send 1080 Bluray direct to the projector and rely on its rather ordinary processing, however when I use external PC based upscaling and clever sharpening with 1080 Bluray I really cant tell if Im viewing 4K or 1080, and thats with real 4K titles like Lucy

Irrelevant -  this is a discussion about universal video formats used around the world,  not  about modification to only one of the formats.  And there is no guarantee that it would not  look worse for many viewers.

 

On 11/5/2018 at 2:08 PM, Owen said:

 

I just can't reliably tell 4K from 2K. Any "difference" that insignificant I could not care less about and don't, I gave up pixel peeping years ago.

If its not brocken it doesn't need fixing, and 1080 Bluray is definitely not broken as far as I am concerned. It will provide 98% of my movie viewing for the foreseeable future because thats where the content I want to view is.

 

The differences between  2k and 4k on  a native 4k projector are so bleeding obvious and significant,  they even hit the most casual observers straight away.   There is nothing subtle about it.    An older JVC projector  will give one of the worst 4k pictures possible compared to native 4k and other newer PJ's.  

[jeffpr]

19 hours ago, Javs said:

E-Shift actually made a bit of a quantum leap in resolving power with the X5000/X7000/X9000 series too when they moved to E-Shift 4. I actually find it sharper and superior to E-Shift 5 too.

 

MadVR's HDR tone mapping is now becoming excellent and you can use the Arve curves with it to produce stellar HDR image on any display now, so with older models if you really want to view the new format you totally can.

 

I have been a big part of that process to help Madshi improve it over at AVS, you can follow that thread here:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector.html

 

 

So if I was looking at a x5900 to buy would I be better looking for a 5500 for 4k .2k and streaming

[betty boop]

9 minutes ago, jeffpr said:

So if I was looking at a x5900 to buy would I be better looking for a 5500 for 4k .2k and streaming

the x5500 if a bargain, id grab instead, or even an older x7000 as that gets you same light engine as top of line x9000 (just without the hand picked parts) but would still get you a step up in contrast, with its dual iris better control of output for HDR and better coverage of dci-p3 colour space for WCG. only thing the older Xx000 miss out on is gaming mode and they arent as plug and play but theres plenty of us running the original xx000 and plenty help around if want so once setup it will be just a case of push of a button for switching between 2k blu-ray or uhd blu-ray/streaming. 

[Owen]

On 12/05/2018 at 6:48 PM, ThoseCinemaguys said:

UHD is a number of things 

 

1- 4K res 

2- Wide Color Gamut (WCG)  

3-  High Dynamic Range (HDR)

4- Deep colour 10bit colour for more shades of colour

5- High Framerates

 

The early JVC series did not respond to most of these features until the new HDMI 2.0

4K, Wide Gamut Colour, HDR, 10bit ALL work just fine over a HDMI 1.4 connection, you just need external hardware to get around artificial HDCP limitations.

High frame rate needs an 18Gbps connection but since moves are 24fps higher frame rate is only important for games, assuming you have a device that can do gaming at 60fps.

 

On 12/05/2018 at 6:48 PM, ThoseCinemaguys said:

HDR and wide color is the real hero of UHD without this the benefits would be limited to just pixels.

Projectors are SDR display devices and cannot do HDR, all we can have is HDR re mapped to SDR brightness levels.

Projectors don't go bright enough to properly reproduce wide gamut colours that are by their very nature BRIGHT.

[Owen]

On 12/05/2018 at 6:50 PM, Javs said:

Again, I have never seen NGU bested so far any comparison I have seen, unless you are willing to show some evidence to the contrary?

I'm surprised you don't do your own evaluations mate. The only "evidence" that matters is what you see on your projector and only you can set that up.

 

On 12/05/2018 at 6:50 PM, Javs said:

You must be the only person on the internet I know of that think MadVR's results are crap.

I never used the word "crap", I said the sharpening functions are next to useless.

 

On 12/05/2018 at 6:50 PM, Javs said:

BTW You are not supposed to use the sharpening tab functions along with NGU,

The problem is sharpening is required IMHO, where and how do you suggest it be applied?

 

On 12/05/2018 at 6:50 PM, Javs said:

Anyway, you are set in your ways 

I sure am. I don't just believe what people on the net say, I try the available options and use what works best for me.

[Owen]

On 12/05/2018 at 11:33 PM, Tasso said:

WRONG  - it was the same material displayed with and without WCG

News flash mate, the 1080 and 4K Netflix streams come from different masters and use a different compression system and very different data rates so they are not comparable at all, unless you consider an apples to oranges comparison valid.

On top of that the 1080 steam is horribly over compressed and the colour sucks.

 

On 12/05/2018 at 11:33 PM, Tasso said:

Irrelevant -  this is a discussion about universal video formats used around the world,  not  about modification to only one of the formats.

It seems you have not been paying attention mate. 

 

On 12/05/2018 at 11:33 PM, Tasso said:

The differences between  2k and 4k on  a native 4k projector are so bleeding obvious and significant,  they even hit the most casual observers straight away.

With you simplistic comparison methods no doubt. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Owen

[Kazz]

1 hour ago, Owen said:

High frame rate needs an 18Gbps connection but since moves are 24fps higher frame rate is only important for games, 

Not 100% accurate, there is at least one movie on 4K blu that is 60fps.

[Owen]

Yes I'm aware of "Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk", but one rather ordinary movie out of the thousands of movies that have been released is hardly significant.

[Kazz]

I didn't say it was a significant number, just putting it out there that not all movies are 24fps.

[Owen]

The Hobbit was 48fps, but I'm pretty sure thats not a supported frame rate on 4K disk and I'm not aware of any digital display that supports it either. 

[TP1]

9 hours ago, Owen said:

News flash mate, the 1080 and 4K Netflix streams come from different masters and use a different compression system and very different data rates so they are not comparable at all, unless you consider an apples to oranges comparison valid.

On top of that the 1080 steam is horribly over compressed and the colour sucks.

 

Wrong again! - I saw  Bt2020 cut in and out while receiving a 4k signal.  It is clear you have a lot to learn.

 

9 hours ago, Owen said:

With you simplistic comparison methods no doubt. 

Don't be a tosser.  You had previously made some valid points about the difficulties in achieving good HDR performance from projectors but  that has turned into a complete bagging of the entire UHD format  and anyone who disagrees with you.  Look around you, you are on your own.  While your convince yourself that your convoluted solution  is just as good - like a bloke I knew who thought his modified Holden ute was as good as a stock Porsche -  you also pretend to, or otherwise misrepresent the differences in resolution and colour depth. I don't think for a minute you are being genuine about this,  just argumentative.  

 

Your projector is hopelessly inadequate for the task at hand which really makes your comments about 2 and 4k simply baseless diatribe. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Tasso

[Owen]

17 hours ago, Tasso said:

Wrong again! - I saw  Bt2020 cut in and out while receiving a 4k signal.  It is clear you have a lot to learn.

I'm always leaning mate, when we stop leaning we are efectivly dead.

As for BT2020 cutting in and out what do you think is going on there? Could it be that the display was having trouble identifying the video content and didn't not know what mode to use?

Now, if the display used a Rec.709 colour mode to display content delivered in a BT2020 colour space ALL the colours will be wrong even if both BT2020 and Rec.709 colour modes are perfectly calibrated to the standards. The display gamut MUST match the video gamut to get accurate colour. 

Since you don't calibrated your displays, as far as I am aware, both Rec.709 and BT2020 modes are not likely to be accurate to begin with and will almost certainly look "different" to one another even when the video is encoded to look identical. A simple display calibration mismatch.

 

Now when your projector switches from Rec.709 colour space to BT2020 the colour filter needs to drop into the light path and that will do two things. The light output will drop about 40% on your Z1 and the colour calibration settings need to change a lot because the filter blocks parts of the red and green spectrum which changes colour balance very significantly.

If you are displaying BT2020 video without the colour filter in place, which can be done on an X series and likely on the Z1 as well, you don't have wide gamut capability to begin with, plus the gamut of the video will not match the gamut of the display resulting in inaccurate colour.

 

So, there is a lot more going on then you seem to realise mate, we cant just turn wide gamut on and off when viewing wide gamut video and assume that the defence we see are due to wide gamut V's non wide gamut, there are a heap of variables at play that make a valid comparison impossible. 

 

17 hours ago, Tasso said:

Don't be a tosser.

Come on mate, keep it civil.

 

17 hours ago, Tasso said:

Your projector is hopelessly inadequate for the task at hand which really makes your comments about 2 and 4k simply baseless diatribe. 

What is the task at hand?

I don't judge the "resolution" of video on a projector I do that on a PC monitor 1:1 mapped and at a viewing distance that gives about the same viewing angle as what I have with the projector, about 40 degrees. I also don't get worked up about "differences" I can only reliably see in a side by side comparison. If I can't just put a movie on and say, yep, thats 4K for sure, I don't care if it is or isn't.

The PC monitor is in the same room as the projector and I can view both images together at a comparable viewing angle. Now the PC monitor has way more potential "resolution" than an E-Shift projector but I don't actually notice any loss when viewing movie content via the projector so its a non issue. I'm far more concerned with image contrast and the limitations of the original movie source, which is the big limitation most of the time and 4K doesn't fix that. If only all movies had the image quaility of the top 5%.

 

Now others may have better eyesight then me, use a significantly wider viewing angle then me and or get all excited about "differences" that I could not care less about. By the same token there are plenty of people with worse eyesight, or who use a smaller viewing angle to whom resolution should be far less of an issue.

 

All too many people get all worked up about 4K "resolution" but put them in front of a projector screen displaying high quality 2K content properly processed and they will not know its not 4K. In fact, people who are not used to projectors are staggered at how clear and sharp the images are at such a large size. They see details in the picture that they where never aware of when viewing on a TV and jump to the concussion that what they are seeing must be 4K.

 

I seem to remember I asked you at what distance you viewed your 150" screen from, did you ever reply?

[MrC]

oh dear ... I see that the discussion has degenerated.  Pity.

[TP1]

3 hours ago, Owen said:

Now when your projector switches from Rec.709 colour space to BT2020 the colour filter needs to drop into the light path and that will do two things. The light output will drop about 40% on your Z1 and the colour calibration settings need to change a lot because the filter blocks parts of the red and green spectrum which changes colour balance very significantly.

 

Wrong yet again! - please stop assuming things.  I have a Sony VPL-VW760ES and there is ZERO  light loss when changing from  BT 709 to BT 2020.   

3 hours ago, Owen said:

I seem to remember I asked you at what distance you viewed your 150" screen from, did you ever reply?

 

I dont have a 150" screen and I don't recall you asking me about seating distance.  

3 hours ago, Owen said:

All too many people get all worked up about 4K "resolution" but put them in front of a projector screen displaying high quality 2K content properly processed and they will not know its not 4K.

A couple of issues here. Firstly , there are those who  process their  4K signals and attest to improved image quality with their projectors.   If you are looking for which format can give the best PQ,  you need to optimise both.  Secondly, your PJ is not ideal to decide such things,  as you must know. It is important for observers to understand this  in the context of your statements.

[Owen]

20 hours ago, Tasso said:

Wrong yet again! - please stop assuming things.  I have a Sony VPL-VW760ES and there is ZERO  light loss when changing from  BT 709 to BT 2020.   

And how is that relevant mate. It doesn't matter what display you have, projector, TV, whatever. There is NO WAY to simply switch off wide gamut when viewing wide gamut encoded video without seriously affecting colour accuracy and SATURATION.

When you where viewing so called "4K" Netflix and originally saw a wide gamut encoded image displayed in Rec.709 mode the colours where inaccurate AND UNDER SATURATED, so when the display worked out what was need and switched to wide gamut mode colour saturation went back to normal rather than deliberately under saturated due to the wrong display gamut being used. For some reason you assumed that what you saw was the difference between normal Rec.709 colour and wide gamut colour when thats not the case at all. It was an apples to banana's comparison that was meaningless.

Rec.709 encoded video must be displayed in Rec.709 and video BT2020 encoded video must be displayed in BT2020. This makes accurate comparisons next to impossible because the content comes from different masters and the display calibration will also be different . 

 

20 hours ago, Tasso said:

I dont have a 150" screen and I don't recall you asking me about seating distance.  

Sorry, I have mixed you up with another forum member. However, I note that you still chose not to divulge what screen size and viewing distance you are using, why is that?

 

20 hours ago, Tasso said:

A couple of issues here. Firstly , there are those who  process their  4K signals and attest to improved image quality with their projectors.   If you are looking for which format can give the best PQ,  you need to optimise both.

True and I do process 4K video, it doesn't need much in the way of sharpening but gamma needs quite a bit of work for projector use.

 

Look, 4K Bluray is without a shadow of a doubt THE best quality movie source the consumer has ever had access to, no question about it, BUT I'm underwhelmed at the magnitude of the improvement over good old 1080 Bluray when its processed well and displayed via a projector.

Keep in mind that I am not resolution obsessed like some so the potential improvement in "resolution" for some movies is not a big deal for me, especially since very few of the movies I want to view are available in 4K or are likely to be. Of those few probably half where never 4K to begin with.

As I said, before the biggest problems I see are due to shortcomings in the original move source that cannot be magically fixed by more pixels, WCG or HDR.

 

20 hours ago, Tasso said:

Secondly, your PJ is not ideal to decide such things,  as you must know. It is important for observers to understand this  in the context of your statements.

That's right I have an E-Shift JVC, however I don't need a "true" 4K projector to work out what level of display resolution is appropriate for my needs. The only times I feel resolution and or sharpness (seperate issues) is lacking is when the video resolution and or sharpness are compromised, as many movies are. A "true" 4K projector can't do anything to correct video source issues.

 

I have no interest in any of the current "true" 4K projectors because of their poor contrast and black performance, which to me is THE most import factor by far and it affects everything I view, not just a handful of 4K Blurays. I wont go near a Sony unless it can be proved that the contrast degradation over time issue is completely resolved, as that is an absolute deal breaker as far as I am concerned.

 

P.S. Sony projectors apply sharpening all the time, even when the user thinks its turned off, so everything you view is being sharpened by RC, like it or not. Its a good trick and sucks most people in.

At least with the JVC's I have owned, sharpening off in the menu is actually off, and thats the way I set it. All scaling and sharpening is done externally for a much better result.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Owen