Cartridge Upgrade. Where to?

[TerryO]

Having been lucky enough to purchase the recently advertised Oracle Delphi Mk iv turn table that was for sale on here I am now considering seriously what cartridge to match with it. With the limited experience I have with turntables this presents me with a challenge as while I have a reasonable understanding of what cartridges are at what price points and where they stand on the ladder of desirability I have no real experience myself in knowing how each of them sound and or how they will work with a TT like the Oracle .

 

I tend to listen mainly to Jazz, female and male vocals and occasionally records from my youth, I'm not into heavy rock or similar anymore.

 

I can purchase a reasonably low hour DV XX2, which after reading some reviews most either love or hate, for what is a reasonable price. So I do have a option at present for a pretty nice cart but I do wonder what else might be out there and what the collective wisdom of SNA members would recommend for this grand old turntable, the table came with a SME V tone arm and my current phono stage is a Lehman Black Cube SE2.

I do very much like the combination of the Denon DP60L and Hana SH cart that I am presently listening to, maybe my expectations are unrealistic but I would hope that the Delphi would take the listening experience to a much higher level when matched with a more top end level cart.

 

I have seen some pretty nice low hour middle to high end carts advertised on here for around the $1.5K to $2k mark previously and on the brand new side there are again some really nice carts selling new for around the same money. 

 

As strange as this might sound I am of the opinion that a turntable like the Oracle Delphi deserves as nice a cartridge as one can afford or as is in my case probably can't afford.

 

Gentlemen your thoughts and recommendations would be appreciated

 

cheers Terry

Edited April 6, 2018 by TerryO

[Janjuggler]

Hi,

 

My personal choice in that price range is the Benz Micro Glider, a great performer for the price, I have tried more expensive cartridges and keep coming back to it for the tremendous all around sound it has....

 

JJ

[mloutfie]

so your budget is around $1.5K to $2k? I really like Lyra delos you can get from ebay for around $2k but wait for 10% ebay discount which pops up every few months 

[Wimbo]

That Lyra sounds the way to go mate. Really, not many cartridges you can't put on a SME5.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Wimbo

[vwo60]

I have a pink triangle anniversary with an SME 5 arm fitted with a Benz Micro Gull Wing SLR,  I also have a Glider,  I was so impressed with the Glider I purchased the Gull Wing when it needed re-tipping,  I cannot recommend the glider enough to you. A fantastic cartridge. http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/benz-micro-glider-sl-mc-phono-cartridge/

[t_mike]

With a set up of that calibre, the sky is the limit, as long as the cart you choose has the ideal compliance for the arm. However, I can't help thinking that your phono stage is quickly going to become the weak link in your chain.

[Batty]

Try a VdH DDT-II special.

[Bill Katz]

I’m selling a Benz Micro LP. I’ve had it since new and done 500-600 hours. Only selling it as I’ve upgraded to the LP S version.

[ophool]

For what you say you like to listen to, you could do a lot worse than this.

[Tobes]

My vote is for the Audio Technica Art-9.

Fantastic cartridge that will compete with carts at twice it's price. Around $1500 sourced locally or considerably less from the grey market sellers. 

[frankn]

How old and what condition is the SME-V?  It might be worth spending some money to return it to SME (UK) and have them refurbish/ recalibrate the arm & wiring. I did this and the result was amazing.  

[TerryO]

Thanks everyone, I actually haven't even seen the turntable in the flesh yet, it's in Sydney and I'm on the Gold Coast My plan is to pick it in about three weeks time so I have some time to get this sorted.

 

@frankn the turntable is a early to mid 90's model and as far as I know the SME arm came with it from the factory. If you don't mind me asking Roughly how much does it cost to get a arm refurbished and how long does it take?

 

There have been some very  interesting suggestions and I'm slowly checking them all out, but so far it would seam that the Lyra Delos is a popular cart as well as a number of Benz models.

I do understand that every cart wear differently and it depends on how it was used and how clean the records were etc. but if you guys were looking at secondhand cart to buy  roughly on average how many hours of usage is the point where you would start to consider not buying it?

 

... And thank you everyone for providing input, hopefully a few more will offer advice as well.

 

cheers Terry

Edited April 7, 2018 by TerryO

[Ken]

Hi Terry,

 

The Oracle Delphi IV and SME V is a really nice combo and one that I owned about 15 years ago.

 

Depending on what type of sound you prefer I suggest that you are extremely careful with cartridge choice. Experiment/audition in your system if you can. The problem I found was that the SME V introduced a hardness to the upper mid range, I tried cartridges from; Dynavector, Ortofon, Audio Technica etc, all had the same / similar hardness, it was not until I went back to the likes of my collection of Supex and Goldbug - (Mr Brier) type of sounds that the hardness was tamed, in the end I used either a Koetsu Red or Black for a couple of years with excellent results.

 

I am sure that the SME V was introducing the hardness as if I changed arm it disappeared, changes included using an SME 309 which is out of the same stable as the SME V , but with no hardness. The SME 309 was also the same arm that Oracle used (known as SME 345), but I think they now supply the SME V also,  Oracle also sell a range of Cartridges but I do not know any pricing.

 

With careful selection you can achieve a world class sound with the Oracle Delphi IV and SME V combination. 

Ken

[TerryO]

Thank you Ken, when reading up about Delphi's I actually found a old thread on another forum commenting about a bloke in WA who had just brought a demo Oracle Delphi Mk iv that came with a Mk V suspension upgrade. I take it that bloke was you? 

Thank you for the heads up on cart selection, I'll obviously have to do more homework before selecting. 

 

Unfortunately I suspect that even the base Koetsu cart is more than likely beyond my budget. I'll find out next week when I'm home.

 

Believe it or not I'm actually in Perth for the next couple of days with work.

 

cheers Terry

Edited April 7, 2018 by TerryO

[Andrews_melb]

I wouldnt buy a cart over 500 hours, taking into account a bit of ‘used car salesman’ tweeking of the numbers.

 

in fairness, id say the carts for sale on here would be more acurate then ebay.

if i sell a cart, i can work it out in my head, based on weekly listens then i add 50 just to be sure. 

 

[frankn]

2 hours ago, TerryO said:

Thanks everyone, 

 

@frankn the turntable is a early to mid 90's model and as far as I know the SME arm came with it from the factory. If you don't mind me asking Roughly how much does it cost to get a arm refurbished and how long does it take?

 

 

cheers Terry

Just checked the invoice and it was UKP 450 (incl. pp). Rebuilt to new  specifications. Not ‘cheap’ but it is a great arm. I use a Lyra cartridge (Kleos) and I previously used a Delos and the sound was great. Use the SME setup alignment jig and you will be good. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by frankn
Correcting Auto correct

[Ken]

Terry,

 

Not sure if I was that guy you mention, it was about 15 years ago. I bought it with the SME V and a new top of the line Clear Audio MM Cartridge, IMO it was not a good match and sold the cartridge on.

 

If you look on line I think you can get Koetsu Black from 2juki in Hong Kong for around A$2K, I have not bought from him but I am pretty sure that SNA members have dealt with him previously.

 

Ken

[t_mike]

I second @Ken with respect to the Goldbug Mr Brier. A simply outstanding cartridge, and while vintage, many owners, past and present, regard it as the best cartridge they have ever owned. This is in comparison to modern carts worth many thousands of dollars. They are thin on the ground, but keeping an eye out may reward you greatly. Don't expect them to come cheap when one surfaces, people that own them know what they're worth. A properly rebuilt one will likely set you back about $2K. The Mrs Brier is apparently better, I'm yet to experience that delight.

[Ken]

Terry,

 

You do not have to spend in the $K2 region to do justice to your Oracle/SME combination, you could look for other than MC Cartridges such as; Grace F9E, F9L or F9R, Stanton 881S, A&R P78, all have been used by me in your combination, I realise all are difficult to find, but they are out there and would be way under your budget.

 

Also, the Decca London Gold, SME V gave me the second best results I ever had with the Gold and so easy to set up.

 

Ken 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Ken

[TerryO]

Thanks everyone for the feedback I am taking it all on board so please keep it coming, this is a fairly big purchase for me, thus the ongoing research.

In my ongoing research relating to cartridges I found this recent private members comparison of the Lyra Delos compared to the Benz Wood on the Steve Hoffman forum and for me anyway it was interesting. For those inclined to read it I'd be interested to hear what do you guys think of the OP's thoughts?

 

Lyra Delos v Benz Micro Wood SL Comparison

"I figured I'd post this for anyone who might be considering either of the two carts in the title. I had first purchased the Benz Woody. I put between 300 and 400 hours on it. Once I started ripping vinyl though, the cart had a bit of haze to the upper end. I'm not sure that it was rolled off as much as it was just darker sounding. So I did some research and ended up buying a Lyra Delos right about Christmas time (2016). It was on my Classic 1 for maybe 80 - 100 hours. Last Saturday, I got a bug up my butt and decided to switch back to the Woody. Remembering about where the top of the cartridge aligned to the headshell, it took about an hour to setup. So I listened to a lot of music Saturday and Sunday through the Benz. Here is my direct comparison:
Delos loading: 100 ohms resistance; 200 pf capacitance; 60dB gain
Woody loading: 1000 ohms resistance; 200 pf capacitance; 60dB gain
Bass: Benz is far superior. It's not only lower, but kicks much harder. It also has that sort of "warmth" to it that I don't find on digital music. Organic? I don't know how to explain it...
Midbass: Benz again. It's more present and has that warmth again. Stronger lower bass guitar notes and deeper tomtomimpact.
Midrange: Benz by far. The things I have been missing with the Lyra are back. Vocals carry far off to the sides. Cymbals (decay, not impact) have longer decay and again, explode off to the deep sides of the soundstage. Much more space around everything. All instruments have more air around them.
Treble: This is a tough one. On one hand, I like the Delos. Snare cracks really hit you square in the chest and right between the eyes. Stuart Copeland's are a great example on Synchronicity. Spirits In The Material World almost makes me blink every time he smacks that snare. But cymbals are a bit too overwhelming with the Delos. They are too high pitched for my liking. Realistic? Yes. But I always preferred Zildjian Ks personally. Which is why I like the Benz sound for cymbals. They're darker but still have fantastic impact. But snare drums lose some attack with the Benz. I love a tightly tuned snare of less than 5" depth. The attack should be high pitched and cutting. A bit is lost with the Benz, although it's still pleasant.
Vocals: Benz... By far. They have a touch of warmth to them and far less sibilant than with the Delos. Some whistling resonance occurs with the Delos and the blame could be partially on my metal armtube. I have a 3D coming in next week and I'll mount the Delos on that to see if that singing/resonance is eliminated or at least minimized. For digitizing, the Delos is the clear winner. It's much clearer and not as 'hazy'. But on my playback system, the Benz far excels the Delos. The Delos is a bit too bright through my Krell and Legacy speakers. The Benz loves more volume and never reaches that point where treble takes more control.
Imaging: Benz. I'm hearing things again that I haven't heard with the Delos. Also, the soundstage has been extended about 2' further out on each side. Little nuances are picked up by the Benz that the Delos missed or it was too subtle to bring attention. MJ's Thriller has some killer vocals way off to the sides like they're whispering in your ears. The Benz picks up these small details and brings them out more prominently. This made me smile as I looked to the left and right at times thinking someone/something was in my listening room. The Benz also portrays things like duets in the center but off enough to know they're singing right next to each other instead of on top of each other.
In fairness, I never set my Benz at 1000 ohms resistance. I tried up to 660 previously. I think it's fantastic right where it is now.
Anyway, that's my in-depth review of the two carts as they compare in my system. Looking forward to seeing how the 3D arm changes the tone of the Delos. But I'm glad I gave the Benz another shot. I don't remember it sounding this damn good."

Here is the link to the full thread including replies for those interested. I actually found the whole thread to be good reading.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/lyra-delos-vs-benz-micro-wood-sl-comparison.661162/

Cheers Terry

Edited April 10, 2018 by TerryO

[Guest]

On 08/04/2018 at 8:10 PM, Ken said:

Terry,

 

You do not have to spend in the $K2 region to do justice to your Oracle/SME combination, you could look for other than MC Cartridges such as; Grace F9E, F9L or F9R, Stanton 881S, A&R P78, all have been used by me in your combination, I realise all are difficult to find, but they are out there and would be way under your budget.

 

Also, the Decca London Gold, SME V gave me the second best results I ever had with the Gold and so easy to set up.

 

Ken 

 

27 minutes ago, TerryO said:

In my ongoing research relating to cartridges I found this recent private members comparison of the Lyra Delos compared to the Benz Wood on the Steve Hoffman forum and for me anyway it was interesting. For those inclined to read it I'd be interested to hear what do you guys think of the OP's thoughts?

 

Lyra Delos v Benz Micro Wood SL Comparison

"I figured I'd post this for anyone who might be considering either of the two carts in the title. I had first purchased the Benz Woody. I put between 300 and 400 hours on it. Once I started ripping vinyl though, the cart had a bit of haze to the upper end. I'm not sure that it was rolled off as much as it was just darker sounding. So I did some research and ended up buying a Lyra Delos right about Christmas time (2016). It was on my Classic 1 for maybe 80 - 100 hours. Last Saturday, I got a bug up my butt and decided to switch back to the Woody. Remembering about where the top of the cartridge aligned to the headshell, it took about an hour to setup. So I listened to a lot of music Saturday and Sunday through the Benz. Here is my direct comparison:
Delos loading: 100 ohms resistance; 200 pf capacitance; 60dB gain
Woody loading: 1000 ohms resistance; 200 pf capacitance; 60dB gain
Bass: Benz is far superior. It's not only lower, but kicks much harder. It also has that sort of "warmth" to it that I don't find on digital music. Organic? I don't know how to explain it...
Midbass: Benz again. It's more present and has that warmth again. Stronger lower bass guitar notes and deeper tomtomimpact.
Midrange: Benz by far. The things I have been missing with the Lyra are back. Vocals carry far off to the sides. Cymbals (decay, not impact) have longer decay and again, explode off to the deep sides of the soundstage. Much more space around everything. All instruments have more air around them.
Treble: This is a tough one. On one hand, I like the Delos. Snare cracks really hit you square in the chest and right between the eyes. Stuart Copeland's are a great example on Synchronicity. Spirits In The Material World almost makes me blink every time he smacks that snare. But cymbals are a bit too overwhelming with the Delos. They are too high pitched for my liking. Realistic? Yes. But I always preferred Zildjian Ks personally. Which is why I like the Benz sound for cymbals. They're darker but still have fantastic impact. But snare drums lose some attack with the Benz. I love a tightly tuned snare of less than 5" depth. The attack should be high pitched and cutting. A bit is lost with the Benz, although it's still pleasant.
Vocals: Benz... By far. They have a touch of warmth to them and far less sibilant than with the Delos. Some whistling resonance occurs with the Delos and the blame could be partially on my metal armtube. I have a 3D coming in next week and I'll mount the Delos on that to see if that singing/resonance is eliminated or at least minimized. For digitizing, the Delos is the clear winner. It's much clearer and not as 'hazy'. But on my playback system, the Benz far excels the Delos. The Delos is a bit too bright through my Krell and Legacy speakers. The Benz loves more volume and never reaches that point where treble takes more control.
Imaging: Benz. I'm hearing things again that I haven't heard with the Delos. Also, the soundstage has been extended about 2' further out on each side. Little nuances are picked up by the Benz that the Delos missed or it was too subtle to bring attention. MJ's Thriller has some killer vocals way off to the sides like they're whispering in your ears. The Benz picks up these small details and brings them out more prominently. This made me smile as I looked to the left and right at times thinking someone/something was in my listening room. The Benz also portrays things like duets in the center but off enough to know they're singing right next to each other instead of on top of each other.
In fairness, I never set my Benz at 1000 ohms resistance. I tried up to 660 previously. I think it's fantastic right where it is now.
Anyway, that's my in-depth review of the two carts as they compare in my system. Looking forward to seeing how the 3D arm changes the tone of the Delos. But I'm glad I gave the Benz another shot. I don't remember it sounding this damn good."

Here is the link to the full thread including replies for those interested. I actually found the whole thread to be good reading.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/lyra-delos-vs-benz-micro-wood-sl-comparison.661162/

Cheers Terry

In my setup the Stanton 881S is soundly trounced by the Benz Wood SL. My arm is medium to high mass though and I have to employ the fluid damping and a super lightweight headshell to get the Stanton to track properly, so the comparison may be invalid against the SME.

[Guest Runaway]

I have never tried Benz Wood MC, only the MM version which is quite different.  But have tried the Benz Gullwing and Lyra Delos, Lyra Kleos on Well Tempered Classic and Once Analog.  I now have the Delos as a staple on all of my TT (WT, OA, LP12).  The Gullwing is a very refined catridge, good with all types of music while the Delos (at about 1/2 the price of the Gullwing) is a more exciting cartridge.   The music literally jumps out at you with the Delos while the Gullwing demands that you sit back, have a nice cup of tea or red wine, and pay attention.  I find the Delos satisfy most of my needs whether I am sitting down or moving about.  I am sure there are nicer carts to be discovered but I stopped worrying about it after getting the Delos and just enjoy the music.  Really depends on your taste.  And the rest of your system.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Runaway
Typo

[Guest Hensa]

1 hour ago, Runaway said:

I have never tried Benz Wood MC, only the MM version which is quite different. 

 

I wasn't even aware that Benz did an MM cartridge. I have a Benz Wood L2 (the version that preceded the SL) and it is a wonderful cartridge which I'd describe similarly to how you've described the Gullwing. Majors on smoothness and refinement and the hint of warmth makes it a very easy listen. I've not heard a Delos in my own system so can't give a fair comparison though its sonic signature from hearing it in other systems is definitely different to the Benz line. There is no added warmth with the Delos which majors more on speed and detail. Which one a listener prefers will be as much down to preferred sonic signature as it will be to the cartridges' respective capabilities. My preferences steer me to the Benz side of the line.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Hensa

[Guest Runaway]

2 hours ago, Hensa said:

 

I wasn't even aware that Benz did an MM cartridge.

My mistake - it was a Clearaudio Wood MM cart.

[Gryffles]

5 hours ago, TerryO said:

Thanks everyone for the feedback I am taking it all on board so please keep it coming, this is a fairly big purchase for me, thus the ongoing research.

In my ongoing research relating to cartridges I found this recent private members comparison of the Lyra Delos compared to the Benz Wood on the Steve Hoffman forum and for me anyway it was interesting. For those inclined to read it I'd be interested to hear what do you guys think of the OP's thoughts?

 

Lyra Delos v Benz Micro Wood SL Comparison

"I figured I'd post this for anyone who might be considering either of the two carts in the title. I had first purchased the Benz Woody. I put between 300 and 400 hours on it. Once I started ripping vinyl though, the cart had a bit of haze to the upper end. I'm not sure that it was rolled off as much as it was just darker sounding. So I did some research and ended up buying a Lyra Delos right about Christmas time (2016). It was on my Classic 1 for maybe 80 - 100 hours. Last Saturday, I got a bug up my butt and decided to switch back to the Woody. Remembering about where the top of the cartridge aligned to the headshell, it took about an hour to setup. So I listened to a lot of music Saturday and Sunday through the Benz. Here is my direct comparison:
Delos loading: 100 ohms resistance; 200 pf capacitance; 60dB gain
Woody loading: 1000 ohms resistance; 200 pf capacitance; 60dB gain
Bass: Benz is far superior. It's not only lower, but kicks much harder. It also has that sort of "warmth" to it that I don't find on digital music. Organic? I don't know how to explain it...
Midbass: Benz again. It's more present and has that warmth again. Stronger lower bass guitar notes and deeper tomtomimpact.
Midrange: Benz by far. The things I have been missing with the Lyra are back. Vocals carry far off to the sides. Cymbals (decay, not impact) have longer decay and again, explode off to the deep sides of the soundstage. Much more space around everything. All instruments have more air around them.
Treble: This is a tough one. On one hand, I like the Delos. Snare cracks really hit you square in the chest and right between the eyes. Stuart Copeland's are a great example on Synchronicity. Spirits In The Material World almost makes me blink every time he smacks that snare. But cymbals are a bit too overwhelming with the Delos. They are too high pitched for my liking. Realistic? Yes. But I always preferred Zildjian Ks personally. Which is why I like the Benz sound for cymbals. They're darker but still have fantastic impact. But snare drums lose some attack with the Benz. I love a tightly tuned snare of less than 5" depth. The attack should be high pitched and cutting. A bit is lost with the Benz, although it's still pleasant.
Vocals: Benz... By far. They have a touch of warmth to them and far less sibilant than with the Delos. Some whistling resonance occurs with the Delos and the blame could be partially on my metal armtube. I have a 3D coming in next week and I'll mount the Delos on that to see if that singing/resonance is eliminated or at least minimized. For digitizing, the Delos is the clear winner. It's much clearer and not as 'hazy'. But on my playback system, the Benz far excels the Delos. The Delos is a bit too bright through my Krell and Legacy speakers. The Benz loves more volume and never reaches that point where treble takes more control.
Imaging: Benz. I'm hearing things again that I haven't heard with the Delos. Also, the soundstage has been extended about 2' further out on each side. Little nuances are picked up by the Benz that the Delos missed or it was too subtle to bring attention. MJ's Thriller has some killer vocals way off to the sides like they're whispering in your ears. The Benz picks up these small details and brings them out more prominently. This made me smile as I looked to the left and right at times thinking someone/something was in my listening room. The Benz also portrays things like duets in the center but off enough to know they're singing right next to each other instead of on top of each other.
In fairness, I never set my Benz at 1000 ohms resistance. I tried up to 660 previously. I think it's fantastic right where it is now.
Anyway, that's my in-depth review of the two carts as they compare in my system. Looking forward to seeing how the 3D arm changes the tone of the Delos. But I'm glad I gave the Benz another shot. I don't remember it sounding this damn good."

Here is the link to the full thread including replies for those interested. I actually found the whole thread to be good reading.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/lyra-delos-vs-benz-micro-wood-sl-comparison.661162/

Cheers Terry

Good to remember that the Benz Wood SL are the best examples of the Glider with a wood body.

Ive owned 3 Benz Wood but would probably head for a Glider if going Benz