New fuse box, dedicated audio power line

[Ittaku]

On 06/06/2019 at 12:41 PM, dbastin said:

Most people in the know suggest dedicated lines be 30A (not only greater current, but greater surface area). The Audiophile grade in wall cables are typically 10AWG, which is about 30A.

When you read recommendations like this, bear in mind most are coming from countries with 110V (i.e. USA) so a 16A line at our 240V is actually more effective than these 30A lines. I had my hifi wired up with 3 separate lines just for the hifi components - each power amp has its own 20A line, and there's a 16A line for the rest of the low power components. Didn't make a snot of difference to the sound though.

[Luc]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

Didn't make a snot of difference to the sound though.

Yup. My mancave build allowed me to have separate(individual) cable runs from 8 dedicated double power points and they had rather expensive Thor points in them and all run back to a separate dedicated circuit board.

Hasn't made a jot of difference to SQ and the knowing smile from the young sparky still stays with me.

No the fridge or the vacuum cleaner starting up doesn't interfere with anything but then it never did.

 

Looks impressive though! 

[agisthos]

I wish I took a picture of the old main line feeding the whole house.

It was literally 1mm solid core wire. Both the negative and positive were burnt/fried from all the volts running through it, the insulation was gone and the raw wire exposed.

 

This sort of thing may be okay for oldies who only have the TV and kettle on at any one time.

 

But with all my computers and other gear running 24/7 there would have had a roof fire, no doubt.

 

I paid the local power utility $380 and they put in a new line stretching back all the way to the nearest junction point across the road.

[Red MacKay]

 

$380 seems really cheap.  I would have expected the local authority to have charged $2.38K!

[Guest rmpfyf]

On 06/06/2019 at 12:41 PM, dbastin said:

Hi again,

This might get a bit off topic, but may be helpful.

Most people in the know suggest dedicated lines be 30A (not only greater current, but greater surface area). The Audiophile grade in wall cables are typically 10AWG, which is about 30A.

Often people suggest 2 dedicated lines, one for analogue amps, one for digital or sources. I gather there are 2 main reasons, maximise current to amps that draw alot of current, isolate electrical noise from source leaking into amps. Theres probably other reasons like maximising stability of current, resistance etc for sources (rather than being affected by the amps). This may prompt the desire for 2 power conditioners tho (1 for each line).

I havent been able to find an Audiophile grade in wall cable that is certified to meet Australian Standards. And sparkles are not supposed to install things that are not certified. And your building insurance may be void too.

Also, I would've thought that the the circuit breaker needs to be rated no higher than the lowest rated wire in the circuit (eg. 30A wire, needs no more than 30A breaker). If something goes wrong with an appliance connected to the circuit, then the breaker will activate before the wire is overloaded, overheats and causes a fire. My guess is thats partly the intent of circuit breakers, rather than to protect appliances plugged into to the circuit (they may have fuses for that purpose).

I'm on the search for RCDs, MCBs, switches, GPOs, busbars and the like that have copper conductors and contacts (not just copper plated), as that would be better than brass conductors.

Unfortunately Australian GPOs are quite inferior to US Audiophile outlets.

I hope this is of interest.

 

Theres no such thing as an audiophile grade in wall cable. There are various types of cable you can use for the same current capability that are mains approved if you know what you’re looking for. There is treatment for radiated noise also.

 

Our GPOs have more contact area on earth than US GPOs and at lower current. Physics suggests we win. Want more contact? Go larger connectors.

 

Copper busbars exist, again a good specialist power systems contractor can refer you here. Not inexpensive though.

 

Breakers and RCBOs I’d suggest just need appropriate sizing to wire capacity if worried about conductivity. You can go large.

 

Would worry more about earthing quality beyond isolated circuits among what you can control within financial ease.

 

Happy to refer specialists via PM though be prepared to spend big.

 

@Red MacKay the breaker arrangement you suggest is likely illegal.

 

Up to $600 or so is about right for a mains reticulation to point of connection from your DNSP.

Edited June 19, 2019 by rmpfyf

[dbastin]

Hi,
I'm not aware of audiophile grade in wall cable for Australia, but they do exist ...

https://www.thecableco.com/diy-cables-and-connectors/bulk-ac-cables/hidden-treasure-in-wall-ac-power-cable.html

https://www.thecableco.com/diy-cables-and-connectors/bulk-ac-cables/power-ac-in-wall-power-cord-bulk.html

http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/power_cord/pg467.html

I'd love know about anything similiar certified for use in Australia.

The base metals, plating and treatment of outlets and plugs all make a difference in my experience. Its frustrating Australia does not have audiophile grade outlets. Furutech make AU plugs.

If base metals matter in outlets it could be assumed these matter in RCDs, breakers, bus bars etc, to some degree.

It would be great to know suppliers/manufacturers of these things with copper conductors.

For interest, take a look at the lengths Shunyata and the like go to in their conditioners. Synergiatic Research even uses pure silver!

[Stump]

9 hours ago, dbastin said:

Hi,
I'm not aware of audiophile grade in wall cable for Australia, but they do exist ...

. Furutech make AU plugs.

If base metals matter in outlets it could be assumed these matter in RCDs, breakers, bus bars etc, to some degree.

 

On a previous thread taking about making up power cords with Furutech cable and plugs one member mentioned he uses the same cable to run dedicated lines from his power box..... Money can get you everything.....

[Misternavi]

On a previous thread taking about making up power cords with Furutech cable and plugs one member mentioned he uses the same cable to run dedicated lines from his power box..... Money can get you everything.....

try finding a power plug to fit on the end of that!

[Red MacKay]

16 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

@Red MacKay the breaker arrangement you suggest is likely illegal.

 

 

I  don't believe so.

 

4mmsq mains into a 40A RCD is not illegal!  If you can find somewhere in the Australian/ NZ Standards that says otherwise- please point it out.

 

The 40A RCD still has the same 30mA current trip - that has not changed from a 20A one, it's still the same 30mA.

 

And right next to the 40A RCD in the mains box is the 20A breaker.  This is the one that is important,  it is what limits the total amps that can be carried by that circuit - not the RCD.

 

What is not legal, is if I want to hang a 32A 3 pin single phase powerpoint on the wall on the end of a less than 6mmsq mains cable.  The cable must be the same rating as the biggest powerpoint recepticle.
 

The Clipsal 32A units have nice juicy round pins with lots of contact area.  If I was running a new mains cable to my music room, 6mmsq is the way I would go to have that single 32A recepticle! 

 

I believe the rules are that you can only hang one 32A PP unit per mains line too, as opposed to normal household multiple 10A recepticles.

 

The rules state that a 32A recepticle must have a switch attached.  I would then feed the mains into a single 4, 6, 8, 12 (your choice) gang box (powerboard) with 15A round recepticles, to plug 15A round pin Clipsal fittings into.  The 15A round plugs have fabulous clamping area within the plug to attach flexible cords. No other on/off switches are needed other than the 32A one on the wall.  Switches are the bottleneck that will choke the current capability of the mains into your room.

 

I believe this all fits within the rules as layed out in the AUS/NZ Standards and thus legal and fine with your insurer.

 

But we are going somewhere else here...

Edited June 20, 2019 by Red MacKay
extra words

[Martykt]

1 hour ago, Stump said:

On a previous thread taking about making up power cords with Furutech cable and plugs one member mentioned he uses the same cable to run dedicated lines from his power box..... Money can get you everything.....

Hmmmm.... might need a bigger wall....

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 hour ago, Red MacKay said:

 

I  don't believe so.

 

4mmsq mains into a 40A RCD is not illegal!  If you can find somewhere in the Australian/ NZ Standards that says otherwise- please point it out.

 

The 40A RCD still has the same 30mA current trip - that has not changed from a 20A one, it's still the same 30mA.

 

And right next to the 40A RCD in the mains box is the 20A breaker.  This is the one that is important,  it is what limits the total amps that can be carried by that circuit - not the RCD.

 

What is not legal, is if I want to hang a 32A 3 pin single phase powerpoint on the wall on the end of a less than 6mmsq mains cable.  The cable must be the same rating as the biggest powerpoint recepticle.
 

The Clipsal 32A units have nice juicy round pins with lots of contact area.  If I was running a new mains cable to my music room, 6mmsq is the way I would go to have that single 32A recepticle! 

 

I believe the rules are that you can only hang one 32A PP unit per mains line too, as opposed to normal household multiple 10A recepticles.

 

The rules state that a 32A recepticle must have a switch attached.  I would then feed the mains into a single 4, 6, 8, 12 (your choice) gang box (powerboard) with 15A round recepticles, to plug 15A round pin Clipsal fittings into.  The 15A round plugs have fabulous clamping area within the plug to attach flexible cords. No other on/off switches are needed other than the 32A one on the wall.  Switches are the bottleneck that will choke the current capability of the mains into your room.

 

I believe this all fits within the rules as layed out in the AUS/NZ Standards and thus legal and fine with your insurer.

 

But we are going somewhere else here...

 

Wire capacity must be matched to breaker capacity, not the earth leakage current, and sub circuit sizes cannot exceed their parent circuit's capacity - a 40A breaker downstream of a 20A RCBO is not permissible.

[Guest rmpfyf]

12 hours ago, dbastin said:

Hi,
I'm not aware of audiophile grade in wall cable for Australia, but they do exist ...

https://www.thecableco.com/diy-cables-and-connectors/bulk-ac-cables/hidden-treasure-in-wall-ac-power-cable.html

https://www.thecableco.com/diy-cables-and-connectors/bulk-ac-cables/power-ac-in-wall-power-cord-bulk.html

http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/power_cord/pg467.html

I'd love know about anything similiar certified for use in Australia.

The base metals, plating and treatment of outlets and plugs all make a difference in my experience. Its frustrating Australia does not have audiophile grade outlets. Furutech make AU plugs.

If base metals matter in outlets it could be assumed these matter in RCDs, breakers, bus bars etc, to some degree.

It would be great to know suppliers/manufacturers of these things with copper conductors.

For interest, take a look at the lengths Shunyata and the like go to in their conditioners. Synergiatic Research even uses pure silver!

 

Would suggest a focus on achieving an outcome and not a product solution. If your outcome is getting 'audiophile' cable into a wall then no, and there are a ton of reasons what you've linked shouldn't work here - most on safety and procedural grounds which have a lot of merit. Australia makes no apologies for having safer mains reticulation standards than the US

 

If you want an audiophile-grade outcome then yes, much is possible.

 

For instance, a 10AWG  cable as per one of those links is a ~2.5mm diameter conductor. If we're comparing the net conductivity of a e.g. silver 2.5mm (at IACS 105% conductivity) vs a 6mm bog-standard copper cable from any electrical cabling stockist... the 6mm cable is going to absolutely smash it. At much less cost. Run 16mm if you want! 25mm earths! All is possible. 

 

Want to insulate against RFI? Braided sleeve, completely legal. Want to protect against magnetic interference? Mu metal channel, also completely legal (both if done correctly). The measurable performance of these outcomes (to electrical termination - what you might hear is another, downstream matter) will match or exceed any 'audiophile' solution. 

 

Want more contact on any connectors? Larger plugs and sockets, there is nothing requiring usual 10A GPOs. 

 

It goes on and on. This logic is applicable to any part of your reticulation. 

 

What is an audiophile-grade outlet? What does it do? Break that down - or find someone that will - and there are be solutions. 

 

If you're serious about solutions there are people I can pass on that are not inexpensive but absolutely do this sort of work and the outcomes are proper. Engineered. Measured. Compliant. They're power systems specialists. 

 

But if you want to be able to say the wire in your wall is made by audiophile brand x, then no. 

[Red MacKay]

5 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Wire capacity must be matched to breaker capacity, not the earth leakage current, and sub circuit sizes cannot exceed their parent circuit's capacity - a 40A breaker downstream of a 20A RCBO is not permissible.

It's not a sub circuit, it's the same circuit!  Again, I disagree.

 

The AUS/NZ Standards are open for many interpretations.  Very little in it is black or white.  And that is what this is, your interpretation is different to mine.

 

My sparky is and industrial sparky and not just a house wirejerker.  He was happy that it complied within the rules, but struggled that we wasted 2 DIN spots when he felt it was unneccessary.  We had a 24 DIN spot board - it was not a problem.

[Guest rmpfyf]

46 minutes ago, Red MacKay said:

It's not a sub circuit, it's the same circuit!  Again, I disagree.

 

The AUS/NZ Standards are open for many interpretations.  Very little in it is black or white.  And that is what this is, your interpretation is different to mine.

 

My sparky is and industrial sparky and not just a house wirejerker.  He was happy that it complied within the rules, but struggled that we wasted 2 DIN spots when he felt it was unneccessary.  We had a 24 DIN spot board - it was not a problem.

 

My sparkies are also industrial sparkies. 24 pole boards are small

 

Would suggest most will view that as a sub, even if it doesn't sit in a sub board. 

 

If you want to play by the letter of the law the suitable breaker for a 4mm wire depends on a number of factors - distance, size of earth... there's a bunch of de-rating factors.

 

You've got a circuit within your MSB where the maximum safe current determined at installation is ambiguous - you know that there's a 40A RCBO on a wire rated to 20A and duly protected, but the next person in your home? 'That's a 40A circuit, we'll do a takeoff from that'?

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the intent and those 40A parts cost a packet now if you can even find them (can't imagine they were cheap back then either), and I think that stuff like this (getting your reticulation right) anyone should do before investing in power regenerator whatever. 

 

Circuits should have single protections per type is the intent of the law, and same type protections (particularly current) should diminish from supply point to appliance providing clear delineation of what went wrong where  - I'd personally not commission a board done differently without extreme justification.

Edited June 20, 2019 by rmpfyf

[Red MacKay]

24 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

My sparkies are also industrial sparkies. 24 pole boards are small

 

Would suggest most will view that as a sub, even if it doesn't sit in a sub board.

 

24 slots in a 13sq home is not insignificant.

 

And yes, it is actually a sub board, fed from the main 3 phase board 5 mtrs away.

 

24 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

If you want to play by the letter of the law the suitable breaker for a 4mm wire depends on a number of factors - distance, size of earth... there's a bunch of de-rating factors.

Totally agree.

 

24 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

You've got a circuit within your MSB where the maximum safe current determined at installation is ambiguous - you know that there's a 40A RCBO on a wire rated to 20A and duly protected, but the next person in your home? 'That's a 40A circuit, we'll do a takeoff from that'?

OK, I see your point.  But what dill would do that without tracing it first?  And the RCD is between the MCB and the GPO, so if they hooked anything with a large current draw, it would trip the MCB immediately anyway.

 

24 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

Circuits should have single protections per type is the intent of the law, and same type protections (particularly current) should diminish from supply point to appliance providing clear delineation of what went wrong where  - I'd personally not commission a board done differently without extreme justification.

Yep, but I don't want a throttle on current capacity, when I have just spent good money on everything else for a dedicated line to my music room!  The contact area on a 20A contactor on a Clipsal 56 Series switch is miniscule compared to the same 56 Series 32A.  That is the exception here for my extreme justification.

 

YMMV and that is fine.  That poor OP must be wondering why he ever asked the question...

I say to him, "hang in there."

Edited June 20, 2019 by Red MacKay
typo

[Guest rmpfyf]

2 hours ago, Red MacKay said:

24 slots in a 13sq home is not insignificant.

 

Working on a home presently with a 96-pole main board and multiple subs. Quite impressive. 

 

Seeing more and more 'average' homes with larger boards to accommodate all sorts of stuff.

 

2 hours ago, Red MacKay said:

OK, I see your point.  But what dill would do that without tracing it first?  And the RCD is between the MCB and the GPO, so if they hooked anything with a large current draw, it would trip the MCB immediately anyway.

 

Never underestimate the capacity of garden variety light and power dills to not trace a circuit  

 

2 hours ago, Red MacKay said:

Yep, but I don't want a throttle on current capacity, when I have just spent good money on everything else for a dedicated line to my music room!  The contact area on a 20A contactor on a Clipsal 56 Series switch is miniscule compared to the same 56 Series 32A.  That is the exception here for my extreme justification.

 

Sure, though (I'm thinking I've misunderstood something here) the current upstream is effectively regulated nonetheless, with a smaller contact on your 20A breaker, 10A rated GPOs, etc...

[blonk]

20 hours ago, Red MacKay said:

Yep, but I don't want a throttle on current capacity, when I have just spent good money on everything else for a dedicated line to my music room!  The contact area on a 20A contactor on a Clipsal 56 Series switch is miniscule compared to the same 56 Series 32A.  That is the exception here for my extreme justification.

I'm not sure I understand your logic. If I understand correctly, you have a 25A circuit breaker, feeding a 40A circuit breaker? If this is the case, the maximum current is still limited by the 25A breaker, as all current flowing through the 40 will also flow through the 25?

 

Blonk

[Red MacKay]

16 minutes ago, blonk said:

I'm not sure I understand your logic. If I understand correctly, you have a 25A circuit breaker, feeding a 40A circuit breaker? If this is the case, the maximum current is still limited by the 25A breaker, as all current flowing through the 40 will also flow through the 25?

 

My thinking here is that you always have losses.  Losses when they are in series like here, result is less current capability.  The 40A pads have less chance of losing current than a 25A one and less chance to get hot as there is more area of contact to transfer the current and also disapate any resultant heat in the contacts.

[dbastin]

#rmpfyf

Sorry, more getting a bit off the core topic here.

The outcome I'd like is good sound quality. I dont have much time to research and experiment with various means to that end, I'd rather be enjoying music more.

I assume the likes of Audience has done alot of research and experimenting to arrive at a desirable sound quality outcome. If you've heard their other cables, they are excellent, so I imagine they wouldn't give the Auduence brand to anything that wasnt excellent.

And I noticed Robert Harley uses Audience in wall cable. And someone in his position could probably have whatever he wants.

I'm not sure if more current capability, shielding and the like equates better sound quality.

That's experience the audiophile companies, with considerbly more resources than me, have gained to arrive at their solutions.

In outlets is the use of very high purity copper base metals, enlarged conductors, plating, polishing, cryo treatment, high contact pressure, and more bespoke treatments like Synergistic Research Quanum Tunnelling, Furutech NCF, graphene ... it goes on. All that is interesting, but just means to the outcome.

I've used 15A AU GPO, the base Shunyata SR Z1 outlet, Furutech GTX, Synergistic Research Black, and step has been a considerable improvement.

Unfortunately Australia doesn't have ready made solutions like these for audiophile outcomes.

I'd like to hear from people who have arrived at that outcome without necessarily using audiophile brand parts.

Ideally, a tried and tested recommendation could be made available to SNAers to adopt and enjoy.

[MLXXX]

On 08/06/2019 at 3:27 PM, Ittaku said:

Most people in the know suggest dedicated lines be 30A (not only greater current, but greater surface area). The Audiophile grade in wall cables are typically 10AWG, which is about 30A.

 

When you read recommendations like this, bear in mind most are coming from countries with 110V (i.e. USA) so a 16A line at our 240V is actually more effective than these 30A lines. I had my hifi wired up with 3 separate lines just for the hifi components - each power amp has its own 20A line, and there's a 16A line for the rest of the low power components. Didn't make a snot of difference to the sound though.

 

On 08/06/2019 at 4:48 PM, Luc said:

Yup. My mancave build allowed me to have separate(individual) cable runs from 8 dedicated double power points and they had rather expensive Thor points in them and all run back to a separate dedicated circuit board.

Hasn't made a jot of difference to SQ and the knowing smile from the young sparky still stays with me.

No the fridge or the vacuum cleaner starting up doesn't interfere with anything but then it never did.

 

Looks impressive though! 

@Ittaku & @Luc, thanks for your honest reports.

 

There'd be a strong temptation after going to the trouble and expense of dedicated power circuits in a residence for audiophile gear to assume it had made an audible difference, and to tell other people it had.

[Lochawe]

Does anyone have experience with this in-wall AC cable from GigaWatt?

I have heard very positive reports but wonder if others have also used this in their dedicated circuits?

http://vi.vipr.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemDescV4&item=272330572683&t=1481279914000&tid=21210&category=61395&seller=avcorp_pl&excSoj=1&excTrk=1&lsite=212&ittenable=false&domain=ebay.ie&descgauge=1&cspheader=1&oneClk=1&secureDesc=0

http://www.gigawatt.eu/produkt/in-wall-cable-gigawatt-lc-y-3x4-mk3/

[Red MacKay]

I am not familiar with this product at all.

 

But thanks for the info Chris, I will check it out.

[Lochawe]

It is available in your neck of the woods Red : )

Not cheap but in scheme of things....

[dbastin]

There's now a new model, and breaker ...

http://www.gigawatt.eu/products/accessories-2-2/

I read this quote from the Gigawatt owner in a posituve feedback review ...

"Another novelty in our offer is a circuit breaker that is manufactured for us by Carling. It complements our "installation offer", that already included in-wall LC-Y cable. And the latter is also considered by many almost a "cult" product today. Krzysztof Pajor, who designed from grounds up our new listening room, installed once our LC-Y cable for quite wealthy customer, who had few separate power systems, some based on LC-Y and some on top Furukawa cable. Imagine Krzysztof's surprise when, after the comparison between these two cables, customer informed him that in his opinion Furukawa performed "slightly better". To realize what that means one has to know the price of Furukawa cable, that is roughly 10 times more expensive than our LC-Y!"

Incidentally, Shunyata also use Carling breakers. There are Carling breakers available in Australia, but for maritime purposes.

Edited June 22, 2019 by dbastin

[Lochawe]

40 minutes ago, dbastin said:

There's now a new model, and breaker ...

http://www.gigawatt.eu/products/accessories-2-2/

I read this quote from the Gigawatt owner in a posituve feedback review ...

"Another novelty in our offer is a circuit breaker that is manufactured for us by Carling. It complements our "installation offer", that already included in-wall LC-Y cable. And the latter is also considered by many almost a "cult" product today. Krzysztof Pajor, who designed from grounds up our new listening room, installed once our LC-Y cable for quite wealthy customer, who had few separate power systems, some based on LC-Y and some on top Furukawa cable. Imagine Krzysztof's surprise when, after the comparison between these two cables, customer informed him that in his opinion Furukawa performed "slightly better". To realize what that means one has to know the price of Furukawa cable, that is roughly 10 times more expensive than our LC-Y!"

Incidentally, Shunyata also use Carling breakers. There are Carling breakers available in Australia, but for maritime purposes.

Thanks for update.  Very familiar with Carling magnetic circuit breakers...

I wonder if these EU certified Carling CB on GigaWatt's website confirm to AUS standards??

http://www.gigawatt.eu/produkt/g-c20a-power-grid-overcurrent-protection-switch/

 

It is actually 12 months ago to the day that I received quotes on the previous GigaWatt cable from their Australian distributor so no shock it has been superceded (I only hope with a better product)...