Could this be best HT speaker in Australia?

[superaaaa]

Yeah I was after a very particular sound character, main reason I went with a custom speaker. 

 

Paul will remote in to do the calibration. I think we're going to try using team view. 

 

It will give me an opportunity to learn as well, which I'm looking forward to.  

[buddhamus]

Yeah I was after a very particular sound character, main reason I went with a custom speaker. 
 
Paul will remote in to do the calibration. I think we're going to try using team view. 
 
It will give me an opportunity to learn as well, which I'm looking forward to.  

I have full confidence after the calibration with Paul those things will sing and you will be very happy mate. After owning his surrounds I was impressed how good they sounded compared to my old monitor audio golds I was using for surrounds lol.

Nyal must be getting quite busy with his business in the US... more people seem to be using him more now then ever before. It's a shame he isnt taking on any international clients at the moment.

There are a few builds on AVS you should check out that he has done.... One is called The Beast Unleashed... Pretty cool stuff.... I have been following Matt who had Nyal do the theater design for him. I've been following Matt on YouTube since 2009 lol... Too see what he had then to now is quite a journey

When is the calibration gonna happen man?... Atleast do an audyssey calibration and see how she goes [emoji6]

[Guest Peter the Greek]

@superaaaa any updates? Got things calibrated yet?

[SandS]

Yes, I've been waiting....

Would still like to replace my Cat12's with DIY mains, Pauls design to go with my DIY folded horns and my 4  8" coax atmos and 4 surrounds designed by Paul. Still building the new surrounds.

[superaaaa]

Sorry for the delay guys, been busy adjusting to life with baby.

 

We did a preliminary calibration with Paul. Some improvement, but still not where I wanted. 

 

After calibration, I then re-ran Audessey and found the sound had improved (in terms of dynamics). Quite ironic, as I normally hate what Audessey does to the sound. 

I compared the FR using REW, and noticed that Audessey with the new speakers produced a curve similar to the CATs. Encouraging results.

 

I flagged this with Paul, and he said he'll produce some filters to more closely match the CATs response. 

 

I still want to experiment more with custom curves, to try and get closer to the sound character I like. Only hurdle is that while Audessey provides ability to customise curves, it's a bit finicky. I may look at getting Dirac to help with my experimentation. 

 

 

[Neilsy]

All good!

I do remember this thread now, reading back through. I did keep taps on it as I had JTR triple 12s before as mentioned...

The consulting company I'm using is SCP consulting. I'm one of their 'trial', for better word, clients in the home space. They mostly do commercial, schools, etc but are keen to get into this higher end home space.
Might be worth hitting them up though..

Did you visit the Hifi show last year in Melb and check out the Krix room?
That had 7x Cinematix across the front alone and would have given you better context as to what the 3 way, managed range sound like.
It was running via Trinnov with a stack of Elektra amps.

I think the JBL for $10k might be a good medium.
I also read over the Monoprice but beware, I queried them and their 'assignable speaker' capability is not capable of crossover network capability like you would need with say Krix Theatrix or Cinematix, so that rules that out for me.

[almikel]

any update?

a truly epic setup...just requiring final tuning from Paul?

 

cheers

Mike

[Guest Peter the Greek]

@superaaaa hey, how are you going with this? did you end up getting it calibrated to your taste?

[superaaaa]

Hi Peter, hope your keeping well. 

 

Not much progress since last update, as I ended up moving house, and the new place has no room appropriate for a theatre  

 

But we plan on demoing and re-building in 2-3 years, and a new theatre is top of the priority list 

 

I've already engaged a local mob (Home theater engineering) to do the room design for me. 

 

Regarding the speakers, I'm in 2 minds on what I'll be doing with them moving forward. Paul mentioned Eqing will be a big part of achieving my taste, and based on the experience I noted above, I can see some sense in that.

 

But I'm still struggling to see how I can achieve the cinematic sound I'm after. Part of the struggle is even describing the sound character I'm chasing. I actually haven't heard the sound character in any deomestic/showroom Ive been to . It may actually be a function of the large spaces in commercial cinemas, or the native cinema recording mix. If so, I won't be able to achieve my goals.  

 

But I'm using this time to do some experimenting. I've reached out to a few forum members who have true cinema speakers at home ( @Neilsy is one), and when covid-19 restrictions lift, I'll be paying them a visit.

 

There is also a place in Perth who will be upgrading their demo room to a Trinnov Alt30/Krix MX40 soon, so will be attending the opening night and chatting to reps from both companies. I'll also make sure I attend the next Melbourne Hifi show (now in 2021) if they do another extreme Krix/Trinnov setup.

 

Hoping I can get the unique sound with the speakers I have, but if not, I'll make sure I exhaust all options before changing them. 

 

@almikel - apologies mate, I didn't get notification of your post.

 

[Guest Peter the Greek]

49 minutes ago, superaaaa said:

Part of the struggle is even describing the sound character I'm chasing. I actually haven't heard the sound character in any deomestic/showroom Ive been to .

Ah, I see. I was going to ask a while back about that. I'd be surprised if you couldn't achieve it with your new speakers.

 

Have you been able to listen to any fully treated rooms in the HAA sort of fashion? Either QuestAI or Erskine Group type rooms? There are a hand full on this forum. I'm guessing this might be the solution to your issue - making small rooms (any residential sized room) sound "big". Or is there something else you're cashing?

 

All good here with me. I've still got a stupid amount of $$ tied up in drivers sitting around in cardboard boxes.....hopefully they'll get built one day (I was hoping this year, but probably the year after next now). I have precious little time to listen to our little 2.1 system, let alone worry about anything larger.....

 

 

[superaaaa]

Yeah, life has a way of getting in the way and keeping us busy.

 

I hope you don't end up starting something, only to finish it in time to sell  

 

What made you decide to go custom route, rather than buy something commercially available?

 

The Home Theater Engineering guys have a Procella/Trinnov demo room here in Perth which I listened. Their calibrator Andrew Poole is HAA certified. That room sounded great (most people would be blown away), but that unique sound character I'm seeking wasn't there. So I don't think it's room acoustics. 

 

It's not the large scale sound that I've found missing, it feels like more to do with the sound character of the speakers themselves.  And I don't think many people would find that sound character particularly appealing; it's just something I've developed a particular bias towards and hence my journey. 

 

Maybe I'll shout the guys from hometheaterengineering to a movie (when cinemas reopen), and get their opinion. I might do the same with Paul Spencer when I head down to Melb next.

 

 

[Neilsy]

5 hours ago, superaaaa said:

But I'm still struggling to see how I can achieve the cinematic sound I'm after. Part of the struggle is even describing the sound character I'm chasing. I actually haven't heard the sound character in any deomestic/showroom Ive been to . It may actually be a function of the large spaces in commercial cinemas, or the native cinema recording mix. If so, I won't be able to achieve my goals.  

Definitely once restrictions ease heading back to the cinemas and taking note what they run will help here. Having said that, even with bias aside, Krix is Event's preferred and primary speaker supplier. So all new cinemas get Krix and 70% of their fleet is Krix. I've also seen Krix in boutique cinemas, Palace Cinemas, Cineplex and so on. 

 

Living Sound & Vision here in Brisbane also now have a Trinnov 32/24chan with MX40 set-up. They run I think LCR, subs front (from the MX40) and a 15" rear sub & I think maybe 12 other speakers covering heights, widths, surrounds.   The guys there are great... They let me play on the Trinnov set-up pane, even compare some EQ profiles & go back in for a listen.  

You'll need fully capable EQ processing if going Krix modular or Series X range, and possibly the same with other cinema-like vendors.

 

The Procella's are pretty great, and highly spoken of. Having said that, I'd room treatment is very key to a proper performance there. 

 

Possible theory of where you're 'missing' the "cinema sound"....    All cinema stuff is horn loaded - and from quite low frequencies... The procella, for example, alike many, has a bass and/or mid driver, then finally a sort of horn loaded HF.    Generally speaking, like a sub / bass driver, it's this way to inject sound into a room but the sound waves aren't too guided. 

Speaking just of the Krix (just Klipsh, some of the JBL, QSC will all be the same) they horn load the critical midrange driver. In Krix Theatrix this is as low as from 350hz and MX40 it's from 400hz. 

 

This does a couple of things:

1.  When the sound waves emit from the cone they do not just 'light up' a room, kind of like a light bulb does. Or like a sub does at low frequencies... They are channeled via a throat and is the same affect as when you shout openly versus cupping your hands. Sound waves are reflected and projected.     This results in massive efficiency and dynamics and makes them sensitive.

2.  Directionality. As eluded to above, the sound is more directly issued as the horn is pointed/aligned/tilted to its target. The wave guide provided by the horn element also reduces invoking room nodes because the sound waves are so guided, meaning a lot more even coverage at the listening section of the room.

 

3. In cinema, the 500hz to 2.5khz range is critical. gunshots...engines revving and ripping, metal shreds, vocals. And when you have a horn loaded midrange low and behold most cinema vendors typically give that driver 350 - 2khz to handle. And because they are bi-amp and active crossovered, you simply dial the bass bin up or down in fractions of a decibel to attune basically how bassy you want the vocals to sound versus the prickle of the midrange. 

 

 

Apologies for that getting lengthy, but I hope some of what I said is also helpful. As I pursued this tone for years. 

And yes, sometimes can't help  but still tweak a little haha

[superaaaa]

Thanks for the detailed info mate.

 

I do have my suspicions that it's in the midrange, because reflecting back on the cinema sound signature I referred to, it's very evident in sudden noises - gun shots, engines, explosions. And it's not the midbass/bass.

 

In your demo, how did the MX40 compare to your Theatrix?

 

I've heard the MX30 in 3 separate demos. They didn't have the sound signature I was after. I spoke to Krix about the MX40 (particularly referencing the horn loaded midrange), but they said the voicing of the MX30 is very similar to MX40 and the Series X. 

 

BTW Is a trinnov on your horizon... 

 

[Guest Peter the Greek]

4 hours ago, superaaaa said:

feels like more to do with the sound character of the speakers themselves. 

Hmm, I suffered from this some years ago.....until Andrew Ward finished his R3 and nothing was the same ever again.....that's when I had him make me a baby pair which I'm hoping to improve again on one day......for me its all centered around the tweeter, an AMT in this instance. There are a few commercial brands using them, Quested comes to mind.  I don't think you can audition them in Australia. But then there's something pretty darn special about PHL mids.....

 

I'll put money on Procella, Krix et al not delivering on what you want. Paul uses better drivers, better crossovers, better set up, more custom etc etc

[superaaaa]

I've read great things about AMTs. There is a brand called Alcon Audio that is mentioned in AVS a fair bit. It uses ribbons with their own propriety tech. Pro audio focused, but has been used in higher end cinemas.

 

 Paul is very talented. But given I'm looking for a very specific sound character, it will be difficult for him to design/advise until I can better define it. 

[Neilsy]

5 hours ago, superaaaa said:

In your demo, how did the MX40 compare to your Theatrix?

We actually spent the course of several hours going through it.. Started with a demo of MX5 set up they had configured there and even that sounded quite cinematic for its size. Then went into another larger room with the MX40 set up and right away the 3way benefit comes immediately through - the midrange has such smoothness and establishes such body to the sound. To me it did sound quite cinematic indeed... 

To answer your question - very similar. There are some subtle differences I believe I did pick up on and have reviewed technical documents that support they are not quite like for like...  MX40 has a 6inch mid with a certain crossover parameter whereas the Theatrix has a slightly larger 6.5inch and more sensitive driver and crosses over at a different frequency range. 

Happy to elaborate further detail if curious.... 

 

Bit of a shame after 3 demos it hasn't shone through for you. Maybe it's not entirely the sound you're after...   A real question may be how well has it been set up? Did the Krix guys tune it or the shop? Being a external crossover managed set up + EQ processing things like auto room correction can potentially apply inferior adjustments compared to manually. 

 

FWIW, I'd still say you will notably recognise comparing hearing the 2way MX30 to the 3way MX40. 

 

 

[superaaaa]

The MX30 was setup by the store's proprietor, who has had training on the Trinnov. He had arranged for a US trinnov rep and I think Scott Krix to calibrate the system for opening night, but then Covid19 lockdown hit and the guys couldnt make it.

 

For the MX40 upgrade he's doing, he'll definitely have them down for setup and calibration. So for next demo, atleast there'll be no question on the system setup.

[Neilsy]

Interesting. Well those guys would know their stuff and would be squeezing the most out of it so if you're not feeling it maybe something isn't what you're after. 

If the host has a few differing target curves saved into his Trinnov profile (like they do @ LS&V) it does allow you to sample some differing settings that are preferred by different Krix calibrators.

 

i.e. the guy at the store was qualified on Trinnov and he liked his target curve whereas one of the Krix integrators also provided another. 

 

And I guess that's the thing with processors and speakers like this, in that it's not plug & play; it's completely able to be played with and tuned to taste. 

 

Word of warning though.... It's addictive!

 

[buddhamus]

On 09/05/2020 at 12:15 PM, superaaaa said:

The MX30 was setup by the store's proprietor, who has had training on the Trinnov. He had arranged for a US trinnov rep and I think Scott Krix to calibrate the system for opening night, but then Covid19 lockdown hit and the guys couldnt make it.

 

For the MX40 upgrade he's doing, he'll definitely have them down for setup and calibration. So for next demo, atleast there'll be no question on the system setup.

This sound signature you speak of.... Did you have this same sound signature in the Catalysts mate?.

 

If your ever down in Melbourne. I have the same Cat12cs....... In a fully treated room running quest and RPG acoustics. 

 

Ive heard the MX40 and other models they have....While good! 

 

I still feel my Catalysts sound better. That's my own opinion.......not sure if this is due to the active dsp in the Catalysts. 

 

Sound is very objective to people though.

[superaaaa]

On 12/11/2020 at 3:19 PM, buddhamus said:

This sound signature you speak of.... Did you have this same sound signature in the Catalysts mate?.

 

If your ever down in Melbourne. I have the same Cat12cs....... In a fully treated room running quest and RPG acoustics. 

 

Ive heard the MX40 and other models they have....While good! 

 

I still feel my Catalysts sound better. That's my own opinion.......not sure if this is due to the active dsp in the Catalysts. 

 

Sound is very objective to people though.

 

Hey mate, hope you've been keeping safe in Melbourne these last few weeks. 

 

I have all my family and a lot of friends there, so know how difficult it's been for Melbournians. 

 

The CATs had some of the sound signature I was after, but not quite enough to keep me satisfied.

 

The closest I've heard to what I want in a demo/domestic environment is a ProAudio tech system driven by a Trinnov processor (and calibrated by someone who was flown from overseas).  I was looking at purchasing it, but the pricing on the ProAudio tech is crazy. 

 

The speakers Paul built me are modelled on the ProAudio tech I heard.

 

100%, sound is very subjective. And what you hear has is based on a lot of factors; speakers, room, calibration. I haven't quite worked out what part I need to address to get what I want.

 

I stumbled across a thread by someone in Perth who has Lenard Opals (I believe these are built in Victoria). It has elements of a JBL cinema speaker, so I'm meeting up with the owner for a listen over the weekend. 

 

When Covid situation relaxes somewhat, I also plan to go across to Queensland and bug @Neilsy for a demo of his Krix cinema speakers   

 

 

[Neilsy]

Working on a new amp stack too, @superaaaa 

 

Just two more that are stuck in customs then I will have pro QSC Cinema processor/monitor and amps. Lot more juice than Emotiva or Elektra 200w/channel stuff. 

[Guest Peter the Greek]

17 hours ago, Neilsy said:

then I will have pro QSC Cinema processor/monitor and amps.

 

I'm amazed QSC's amps aren't more popular....probably an Australia thing. The DCA's are class A/B, have tones of power, cheap

[Neilsy]

On 01/12/2020 at 1:01 PM, Peter the Greek said:

 

I'm amazed QSC's amps aren't more popular....probably an Australia thing. The DCA's are class A/B, have tones of power, cheap

Not super cheap though... I got a quote from the Aus reseller and they're quite high, particularly models like the 3022.  . .  Myself and another guy here in Aus are ditching our Emo range and bought all second hand DCAs from UK, USA..   way cheaper. Just a step down and slight change in the US model to accommodate our power and all good.

[Guest Peter the Greek]

2 hours ago, Neilsy said:

 Just a step down and slight change in the US model to accommodate our power and all good.

 

I thought they were universal? How much was the 3022?

 

This is obviously really old now.....but back in my day (back when the dollar was $1.03....:

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Peter the Greek

[superaaaa]

Nice @Neilsy! 

 

I periodically consider getting a QSC 110f, based on feedback on AVS. Seen some overseas pricing, but not sure what the local pricing would be. 

 

@Peter the Greek I think the price premium is the only real deterrent on the QSC amps. More expensive than Crowns and Behringer's. But with the price premium your also getting a more reliable and robust product.