MM Vs MC

[andyr]

1 hour ago, Wimbo said:

'Wimbo waits with bated breath"

 

Curious why, W?  The only reason I can think of is that you can't disagree with what I've written ... until I've written it! 

 

1 hour ago, rantan said:

 ... just a trollish demeanour

+1. 

 

Andy

 

[Wimbo]

Phono pre to me means low noise I.E. transparent and grunt. Stuff the delicate warm coloration crap. You should be able to do all that with the rest of the kit.

[nkoulban]

8 hours ago, Colin Rutter said:

Not "expensive" but quiet
There is no justification for any phono stage over $500 even that's getting into "snake oil" territory

Each to their own, you seem comfortable going for good budget gear (nothing wrong with that).  As for spending more than $500 = "snake oil" seems like an arbitrary  statement not backed by facts.  

[andyr]

5 hours ago, Wimbo said:

Phono pre to me means low noise I.E. transparent and grunt. Stuff the delicate warm coloration crap. You should be able to do all that with the rest of the kit.

Have no idea what 'grunt' is, W - in reference to a phono stage??  And to me "low noise" doesn't imply transparency.

 

I would say what is necessary is:

• low noise
• highly resolving
• excellent transient response
• extended top end
• wrt low-end roll-off ... not more than 1dB down @ 15Hz.

 

Andy

 

[Wimbo]

11 hours ago, andyr said:

Have no idea what 'grunt' is, W - in reference to a phono stage??  And to me "low noise" doesn't imply transparency.

 

I would say what is necessary is:

• low noise
• highly resolving
• excellent transient response
• extended top end
• wrt low-end roll-off ... not more than 1dB down @ 15Hz.

 

Andy

 

Glad I got your attention A. Resolving is transparency. E.G. Presence.   Agree with Transient response. One main reason I never got into CD. Grunt can be looked at as Dynamic frequency extremes.

Just like the Stanton 881S, which has these in Spades.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Wimbo

[Guest Hensa]

2 minutes ago, Wimbo said:

Glad I got your attention A. Resolving is transparency. E.G. Presence.   Agree with Transient response. One main reason I never got into CD. Grunt can be looked at as Dynamic frequency extremes.

The Stanton 881S has these is Spades.

I may have misunderstood - I thought you were talking about phono stage characteristics rather than cartridge traits?

[andyr]

4 minutes ago, Hensa said:

I may have misunderstood - I thought you were talking about phono stage characteristics rather than cartridge traits?

Haha - so did I, H.    I think perhaps W has a problem focussing on what he's writing about! 

 

Andy

 

[Wimbo]

17 minutes ago, Hensa said:

I may have misunderstood - I thought you were talking about phono stage characteristics rather than cartridge traits?

Description covers both. Not too hard to follow

Edited, just in case.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Wimbo

[Wimbo]

11 minutes ago, andyr said:

Haha - so did I, H.    I think perhaps W has a problem focussing on what he's writing about! 

 

Andy

 

Had a late night A.

[Owen Y]

(Sorry MW for digressing your thread further....)

Many folks are casually unaware that a phono-stage is arguably the toughest task in amp design.

For starters, you have a source signal in the millivolt level, requiring huge gain (100x at least, not to mention MCs which need an additional 10 - 20x gain).

RIAA EQ absorbs an additional 20dB of gain - that's 80-90dB (10,000 - 20,000x) so far .

Not to mention 'insertion losses' through the RIAA filter network/s.

Additionally, a preamp should never 'clip',  it should have generous headroom (15-20dB at least) for all possible music signal dynamics - not all phono-stages pass this test.

Nuff said methinks 

 

Cheers, Owen

Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/

Edited May 22, 2018 by Owen Y

[Guest Hensa]

5 minutes ago, Owen Y said:

Many folks are casually unaware that a phono-stage is arguably the toughest task in amp design.

I agree with all of your comments but would suggest that is actually a very small few folks rather than "many".

[cheekyboy]

1 hour ago, Hensa said:

I agree with all of your comments but would suggest that is actually a very small few folks rather than "many".

 

I agree, G, very few indeed and one particular contributor here back a page or two, who I think is absolutely clueless.

1 hour ago, Wimbo said:

Had a late night A.

 

I thought you were from Sydney, W, not Queensland.

Edited May 23, 2018 by cheekyboy

[Batty]

Working with RF and small signals in general, I am very aware of how difficult high gain and low noise can be, especially where wide bandwith and large dynamic ranges are required too.

[Owen Y]

2 hours ago, Hensa said:

I agree with all of your comments but would suggest that is actually a very small few folks rather than "many".

I was just trying to be charitable

 

Cheers, Owen

Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/

[andyr]

2 hours ago, Owen Y said:

Additionally, a preamp should never 'clip',  it should have generous headroom (15-20dB at least) for all possible music signal dynamics - not all phono-stages pass this test.

 

Very good point, Owen!!    I had forgotten that one.

 

Andy

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by andyr

[Colin Rutter]

Each to their own, you seem comfortable going for good budget gear (nothing wrong with that).  As for spending more than $500 = "snake oil" seems like an arbitrary  statement not backed by facts.  

Actually I build my own
Not arbitrary I have decades of designing and building amps
Tubes SE and push pull, ultra linear, solid state class A, etc.
Most of what is on this site is uninformed rubbish
The only way to fully assess a component is ABX
If you don't believe that you're off with the pixies

[rantan]

22 minutes ago, Colin Rutter said:

Actually I build my own
Not arbitrary I have decades of designing and building amps
Tubes SE and push pull, ultra linear, solid state class A, etc.
Most of what is on this site is uninformed rubbish
The only way to fully assess a component is ABX
If you don't believe that you're off with the pixies

Once a troll always a troll.

 

It's fun for you and that's fine......but don''t let your ego dictate what is true and real.

[wolster]

41 minutes ago, Colin Rutter said:

Actually I build my own
Not arbitrary I have decades of designing and building amps
Tubes SE and push pull, ultra linear, solid state class A, etc.
Most of what is on this site is uninformed rubbish
The only way to fully assess a component is ABX
If you don't believe that you're off with the pixies

@Colin Rutter

While your experience is very welcome here, please respect the opinions of others, even if you disagree, as per our guidelines.

[andyr]

1 hour ago, Colin Rutter said:

Actually I build my own
Not arbitrary I have decades of designing and building amps
Tubes SE and push pull, ultra linear, solid state class A, etc.

 

You have built only amps ... or a phono stage?  They have very different characteristics.

 

And if you have built phono stages then, for a sell price of $500 ... you must be using very cheap parts.    The output caps I use in mine would (at the ratio for manufacturing of 5x cost-of-parts  =  sell price) by themselves count for a cost of $1,250.

 

1 hour ago, Colin Rutter said:

The only way to fully assess a component is ABX

 

What's "ABX"?

 

37 minutes ago, rantan said:

Once a troll always a troll.

 

Absoloootely! 

 

Andy

 

[t_mike]

 

47 minutes ago, andyr said:

What's "ABX"?

ABX is the correct way to double blind test, and troll or no troll, with this I have to agree with the poster.

[mwhouston]

Somehow I got dropped from a thread I started and was following.  I have read the last few days worth and agree a $500 commercial phono stage may work OK but would not compete with far more expensive commercial gear. "Commercial gear" is the key words here. A number of members have one of my Mimic variants which sell for far less than $500. But I don't need the commercial mark-up pricing so many others have had to endure. You could argue my gear doesn't live up to the multi-thousand dollar commercial units and you may well be right. But for what I charge many, many are extremely happy with the performance. 

 

I think there has has been more said and written about A/B testing than the results it has produced if any meaningful results at all. I don't A/B test but enjoy the chararcter of each piece of gear I make (I don't make CD players or TTs but do make everything else). Of course if there is anything chronically  wrong with a piece of my DIY gear it is obvious and the gear is removed or corrected but not tested or compared with other gear, commercial or otherwise. Living with gear for long periods is far better testing and confirmation. And don't forget all audio gear is a compromise and carries distortions. Choose the distortion you like best and enjoy it.

 

To to be continued..

[mwhouston]

Talking inexpensive phono stages my latest battery powered "Mimic Carbon II" variants used 1/4W Carbon film resistors and polycarbonate and MKT caps. I think they sound better than the metal film versions. You should (not could) argue more expensive parts = better sound but it doesn't always follow. 

 

The latest recipient of a Mimic Carbon II (Friday) noted his more expensive phono stages had more air. I don't doubt it but what this Mimic does is give you a tube phono stage for the cost of a SS kit. Musicly flow (rhythm, pace and drive all moving together) is more evident in the new Mimics and more enjoyable to me. The music just sounds right and balanced. 

 

I just love my Garrott K3 and the Mimic Carbons seem to pass on all these underrated, shockingly inexpensive carts can deliver. To me it feels like every piece of gear is working together and the distortion profile (as in earlier post) is one which is pleasing to me.

 

I could stop listening to music and spend a wasted day A/Bing and confuse and frustrate myself listening to gear (like so many others) or put another vinyl delight on and top-up the Whisky glass. You know which one I'm going for. 

[Owen Y]

IMHO don't kill MW's thread by getting sucked into an ABX debate, a dead horse that been flogged all over the net many times.

(The human brain is neither reliable, accurate or comparable from person to person.

I'm with MW on this, long term listening is the only way to assess an audio device.)

 

Cheers, Owen

Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/

[andyr]

2 hours ago, Owen Y said:

I'm with MW on this, long term listening is the only way to assess an audio device.)

 

Cheers, Owen

Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/

+1 

 

Andy

 

[Wimbo]

5 hours ago, andyr said:

+1 

 

Andy

 

+1