MM Vs MC

[Batty]

3 hours ago, Hensa said:

 

I run a DDT-II Special on the Denon DP60 and rate it very highly indeed. Probably my favourite $1K'ish cart. Likes a very low mass arm but boy does it sing!

I had it on an RB250, but the trough and outrigger on the Rock seems to do away with arm/cart matching.

I also run a V15 III/jico neo-sas SS on a GH228 unipivot fitted to a modded PD264.

 

VdH DDT-II special available for $1399 from VAF according to Google.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Batty
Extra info

[Guest Hensa]

14 minutes ago, Batty said:

I had it on an RB250, but the trough and outrigger on the Rock seems to do away with arm/cart matching.

I also run a V15 III/jico neo-sas SS on a GH228 unipivot fitted to a modded PD264.

 

VdH DDT-II special available for $1399 from VAF according to Google.

The arm damping trough would certainly negate the need for a low mass arm to a large extent. When I bought the DDT-II, it cost me just $900 from Europe.

[08Boss302]

Interesting thread this one, I am a relative newbie so please go easy on the below..

Growing up I only had the 3in1 type of systems but that was reletive to my age and the times. After a long digital hiatus I took more interest in analog some years ago and got a newer table which came with an OM10 - basic i know

 

Recently I upgraded the table and after lengthy research and also discussions with HiFi shops I decided on a Garrott Bros Optim FGS Moving Iron cartridge.   I am not really confident in set up so I had the shop do it,  I was explained this cart needed its tail up and preferred a certain rake etc and at that point I figured it far easier to pay up and get the azimuth and everything all done via a store that had the utilities and skill to do this.  I find the Moving Iron to be a very nice listen, its definately musical, provides ME with the dynamics and wide soundstage that I was looking/hoping for.  I do concurr that turntable/tonearm/preamp/speakers/room & that X factor Synergy play some part in this.  Sit me at a mates house who is wrapped with his system and I may not see the fuss - vice versa. 

On a separate table I also have a Nagaoka MP110, this is MM and I have to say for the money it is a lot of fun to listen to.  I gave the set up a go on this and there is no sibilence etc to my ears so right not I am pleased with my efforts. It could also be the MP110 is a simple cart to set up??   I would be keen in time to move up the MM tree in the Nagaoka range or the AT Range.

 

More recently I am interested in MC and options in that arena.  I have read alot of good stuff about a number of carts, one imparticular that is at price point that works for me is the AT ART 9. Some lengthy forum threads on other sites read favourably, but its unusual for anyone to spend $$$ and not see a positive somewhere in it so I would only let my ears be the judge after I have thrown down the money.  This would be my first intro to MC. At this time it would also mean a step-up/elevator to my Graham Slee preamp which I cannot afford to do both - tax time is coming though!!!

 

All the above said, I will say that i find the Moving Iron very very nice, and it does beat the Nagaoka but is also 8x its price so i'd expect it to be better.  Is it better than the top end of MM like the 2M Black?  I guess that would depend on how you like your music presented to you!?

I am not in a position to state MM/MI over MC as I dont own both yet BUT I can say the MI is another option that seems pretty easy to work with once set up with a preamp etc.  It might be an alternative or middle ground between the two other options?

 

 

On a side note, I will be looking more into that deer hide mat though, has anyone else tried it?

sound change?

do you need to reset VTA etc?

 

cheers,

[PKay]

36 minutes ago, 08Boss302 said:

On a side note, I will be looking more into that deer hide mat though, has anyone else tried it?

sound change?

do you need to reset VTA etc?

 

cheers,

I recently bought the Les Davis slip mat from Len Wallis at $165 it is a bit pricey but I have been very impressed with the results. http://www.lenwallisaudio.com/products/accessories/tweaks/33-1-3d-record-slipmat

 

I will write up a review when I get some time.  The mat is 1mm thick so a small VTA adjustment was beneficial with my TT.

[mwhouston]

1 hour ago, 08Boss302 said:

Interesting thread this one, I am a relative newbie so please go easy on the below..

Growing up I only had the 3in1 type of systems but that was reletive to my age and the times. After a long digital hiatus I took more interest in analog some years ago and got a newer table which came with an OM10 - basic i know

 

Recently I upgraded the table and after lengthy research and also discussions with HiFi shops I decided on a Garrott Bros Optim FGS Moving Iron cartridge.   I am not really confident in set up so I had the shop do it,  I was explained this cart needed its tail up and preferred a certain rake etc and at that point I figured it far easier to pay up and get the azimuth and everything all done via a store that had the utilities and skill to do this.  I find the Moving Iron to be a very nice listen, its definately musical, provides ME with the dynamics and wide soundstage that I was looking/hoping for.  I do concurr that turntable/tonearm/preamp/speakers/room & that X factor Synergy play some part in this.  Sit me at a mates house who is wrapped with his system and I may not see the fuss - vice versa. 

On a separate table I also have a Nagaoka MP110, this is MM and I have to say for the money it is a lot of fun to listen to.  I gave the set up a go on this and there is no sibilence etc to my ears so right not I am pleased with my efforts. It could also be the MP110 is a simple cart to set up??   I would be keen in time to move up the MM tree in the Nagaoka range or the AT Range.

 

More recently I am interested in MC and options in that arena.  I have read alot of good stuff about a number of carts, one imparticular that is at price point that works for me is the AT ART 9. Some lengthy forum threads on other sites read favourably, but its unusual for anyone to spend $$$ and not see a positive somewhere in it so I would only let my ears be the judge after I have thrown down the money.  This would be my first intro to MC. At this time it would also mean a step-up/elevator to my Graham Slee preamp which I cannot afford to do both - tax time is coming though!!!

 

All the above said, I will say that i find the Moving Iron very very nice, and it does beat the Nagaoka but is also 8x its price so i'd expect it to be better.  Is it better than the top end of MM like the 2M Black?  I guess that would depend on how you like your music presented to you!?

I am not in a position to state MM/MI over MC as I dont own both yet BUT I can say the MI is another option that seems pretty easy to work with once set up with a preamp etc.  It might be an alternative or middle ground between the two other options?

 

 

On a side note, I will be looking more into that deer hide mat though, has anyone else tried it?

sound change?

do you need to reset VTA etc?

 

cheers,

Glad to see you at not scared to try different carts. A posting to the mat is up but troll the 'net for others. I'm using deer on my two TTs and like it. But???

[Bookaboo]

Ive been experimenting with various cartridges and recently got a hold of an empire MC cartridge that outshines most I have, but its more of a preference than an outright beating. IMO the 2M Blue is a great allrounder and as good as most setups will require. If you wish for a thicker, more analogue sound the Shures are just the ticket, I have the V15MKIV which is just great but polar opposite of the Empire. The 2M Blue falls somewhere in the middle of these two schools and thats why I reckon its a great reference point of where to start and find your way from there. Kind of like a Sennheiser HD600 in headphone terms. The Garrott P77 is probably my favourite cartridge MM or MC as it is kind of a mix of both with the tonality of the 2M blue but much more dynamic and detail but the Empire is just as good just a different flavour. 

[mwhouston]

Well one thing is for sure we all have plenty of choice. Also we don't have to spend $1000s to get a good sound. We can all work within budgetary limits.

[mwhouston]

Has anyone listened to any of the Hana(s)? They seem inexpensive and a wide range. 

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/i/292485587993?chn=ps&dispItem=1&ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F705-139619-5960-0%2F2%3Fmpre%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com.au%252Fi%252F292485587993%253Fchn%253Dps%2526dispItem%253D1%26itemid%3D292485587993%26targetid%3D91828839217%26device%3Dt%26adtype%3Dpla%26googleloc%3D9071500%26poi%3D%26campaignid%3D184043497%26adgroupid%3D8467825417%26rlsatarget%3Dpla-91828839217%26abcId%3D%26merchantid%3D7364522%26gclid%3DCj0KCQjw5LbWBRDCARIsALAbcOfLcGK5Tul598JSd4Z9d7DDbDuLhU4sRR5ptr-nG5wJYIdwH0BB0D8aAhgWEALw_wcB%26srcrot%3D705-139619-5960-0%26rvr_id%3D1496693569012

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by mwhouston

[Guest Hensa]

18 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

Has anyone listened to any of the Hana(s)? They seem inexpensive and a wide range.

 

The Hana MC carts are excellent sounding, particularly the S variants which are a little better balanced with more space and detail than the E models. Fairly neutral without being lean and a clean top end. Not the deepest bass but always well controlled. Krispy Audio has them at a better price than your link:

 

http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/brands/Hana.html

 

[mwhouston]

1 hour ago, Hensa said:

 

The Hana MC carts are excellent sounding, particularly the S variants which are a little better balanced with more space and detail than the E models. Fairly neutral without being lean and a clean top end. Not the deepest bass but always well controlled. Krispy Audio has them at a better price than your link:

 

http://www.krispyaudio.com.au/brands/Hana.html

 

Which do,you have, if any?

[Guest Hensa]

Just now, mwhouston said:

Which do,you have, if any?

Mine have been sold. I have owned and run the EL, SL and SH.

[MattyW]

7 hours ago, Bookaboo said:

Ive been experimenting with various cartridges and recently got a hold of an empire MC cartridge that outshines most I have, but its more of a preference than an outright beating. IMO the 2M Blue is a great allrounder and as good as most setups will require. If you wish for a thicker, more analogue sound the Shures are just the ticket, I have the V15MKIV which is just great but polar opposite of the Empire. The 2M Blue falls somewhere in the middle of these two schools and thats why I reckon its a great reference point of where to start and find your way from there. Kind of like a Sennheiser HD600 in headphone terms. The Garrott P77 is probably my favourite cartridge MM or MC as it is kind of a mix of both with the tonality of the 2M blue but much more dynamic and detail but the Empire is just as good just a different flavour. 

Is it the Empire MC5 made by Ernst Benz? I've lusted over those ever since I read about them 5 years or so back

Edited April 12, 2018 by MattyW

[dwbasement]

The Hana is a great cart for its money but I found it not suitable for full range speakers or speakers short on bass. I have had the SL on my full range setup but unfortunately just can't get enough bass to my liking otherwise, very nice vocal and clean sound. As a reference, It is better than 2m black I had before if you want to compare with a MM cart IMO.

 

 

 

 

[mwhouston]

1 hour ago, dwbasement said:

The Hana is a great cart for its money but I found it not suitable for full range speakers or speakers short on bass. I have had the SL on my full range setup but unfortunately just can't get enough bass to my liking otherwise, very nice vocal and clean sound. As a reference, It is better than 2m black I had before if you want to compare with a MM cart IMO.

 

 

 

 

I'm all for full range speakers but what about adding a subby or two. I'm having built right now some box for Markaudio 12P 8" drivers. I know the bass is not going to be super deep and if I feel the whole build doesn't work I'll put other drivers in the box. 

[mwhouston]

Thanks for your comments about the Hana.

[dwbasement]

I'm all for full range speakers but what about adding a subby or two. I'm having built right now some box for Markaudio 12P 8" drivers. I know the bass is not going to be super deep and if I feel the whole build doesn't work I'll put other drivers in the box. 

I have 8 inch too, not to my liking with the Hana. And I am not a bass person...

[Colin Rutter]

MC carts are expensive and require a good (read expensive) phono front end.  The results can be truly incredible though.  I have found that a well set up MM that has a something more than a basic elliptical stylus can give you excellent results without the expense and hassle.  Of course not all MCs and MMs are created equal and when you oerlay personal preferences and equipment variations it gets very complex indeed.  I love my AT OC9/II running through blue Cinemag transformers and a Les Box modified Yaquin all valve phono, it sounds impactful, goes deep and has an incredible high end together with an ability to render music in an holographic 3D space.  I also have an AT95 MM with a finer LP Gear elliptical stylus, potted in a wooden body that sounds much better than its modest price point suggest.

Not "expensive" but quiet
There is no justification for any phono stage over $500 even that's getting into "snake oil" territory

[cheekyboy]

17 minutes ago, Colin Rutter said:

Not "expensive" but quiet
There is no justification for any phono stage over $500 even that's getting into "snake oil" territory

 

It may well be a case of diminishing returns for dollars spent, but there is plenty of justification for spending more than $500.00 on a phono stage. With all due respect, saying that spending $500.00 or more on a phono stage is 'snake oil' is just being deliberately provocative.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[Batty]

$500 doesn't go far these days. My DIY MM phono stage cost over $300 in parts.

[andyr]

56 minutes ago, Colin Rutter said:

Not "expensive" but quiet
There is no justification for any phono stage over $500 even that's getting into "snake oil" territory

 

You would appear not to have had the pleasure of listening to any top end phono stages, CR. 

 

Andy

 

[Wimbo]

15 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

You would appear not to have had the pleasure of listening to any top end phono stages, CR. 

 

Andy

 

'Wimbo waits with bated breath"

[t_mike]

1 hour ago, Colin Rutter said:

Not "expensive" but quiet
There is no justification for any phono stage over $500 even that's getting into "snake oil" territory

This comment sounds like reverse snake oil.

[rantan]

2 minutes ago, t_mike said:

This comment sounds like reverse snake oil.

+1

 

 Actually, it reads like a steaming pile of opinionated crap, not supported with any factual information, just a trollish demeanour

[sir sanders zingmore]

I would have thought that a phono stage would be possibly harder to get right than many other bits of hifi gear.

You are taking a miniscule signal and applying a massive gain to it (as well as an EQ curve). That sounds like quite an easy thing to mess up 

[t_mike]

Let's put it this way, phones are made in the millions by robots churning them out in short order. By comparison ALL hifi gear is bespoke. $500 gets you a very average phone.