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Using Multi Subs & MSO To Get Even Bass In Room & Across Sitting Positions


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3 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Are you using clone configurations?  You can do MSO optmisation run, save it, then clone it and try something different.  That way you can always go back to previous runs.

Yea might give that a go and see where the 'fresh' vs 'semi optimised' ends up. I'm doing it across 8 seats so gets messy.

 

I might try another config for MLP only. 

 

I'm due for a re-measure of all the seats and subs as the room has had more things put in and I've put one of three port plugs into the sub. Need a few more Easter weekends.....

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Introduction The purpose of this post is to re-introduce a software tool that configures multiple subwoofers (subs) to produce smooth bass in a room and at the same time, make it even across sitt

Thats pretty close.  After reading through as much as I could find on the Kii's I took the approach (right or wrong) of trying to protect the Kii cardiod distribution while shifting some of the low fr

Each specific situation is very specifc.   I wouldn't over think it though.   I think (ala geddes, etc.) that asymetrical placement, and a higher number of sources, is the most important.

On 04/04/2021 at 9:06 PM, davewantsmoore said:

This isn't what MSO does.

 

Yes, that was my understanding too so I must have not understood you.

MSO will find what it thinks is the best combination of EQ between multiple subwoofers.

 

On 04/04/2021 at 9:06 PM, davewantsmoore said:

I was only thinking about 0 to 80.

 

80Hz is ~4m long.

 

So in a (large) 8m x 8m room....a  subwoofer in the corner of the room is only 1 wavelength distance (ie. delay) from a subwoofer in the centre of the room..

 

For 20Hz, this is one-quarter of a wavelength.

 

So for my room that is 7M X 5M with the sub-woofers at the short wall makes them about 2.5M from the closest corner.

 

80Hz 4.32M Wavelength 1.08M Quarter Wavelength

70Hz 4.94M Wavelength 1.24M Quarter Wavelength

60Hz 5.70M Wavelength 1.43M Quarter Wavelength

50Hz 6.88M Wavelength 1.72M Quarter Wavelength

40Hz 8.63M Wavelength 2.16M Quarter Wavelength

 

I have two bass traps in two of the corners although unsure how effective they are.

Placing the subs midwall was based on a hunch from the Harman article that I presume you're aware of:

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

 

Based on the above would there not be some advantage to midwall placement over corner loaded placement?

I think I can understand there are probably pros and cons.

I know I could experiment and measure different subwoofer positions but I just wanted something good overall.

Also front and back midwall on the shortwalls works well in my room and aesthetics and convenience are somewhat important too.

 

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4 hours ago, Satanica said:

Based on the above would there not be some advantage to midwall placement over corner loaded placement?

 

Each specific situation is very specifc.

 

I wouldn't over think it though.   I think (ala geddes, etc.) that asymetrical placement, and a higher number of sources, is the most important.

 

The short ansswer is ..... you want to experiment locations for each (un-EQed) woofer, that optimise the response flatness of all woofers.  (eg. locations where one is filling in the dips or peaks of another).   This isn't usually some symetrical layout that you see in a paper/book.

 

That is assuming that we don't want to run them above ~80Hz.

 

It's complicated is the long answer.

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On 04/04/2021 at 4:25 PM, Satanica said:

On another note I believe @Snoopy8 has used his subwoofers to EQ all the way up to 200Hz with no low pass filter applied (typically 80Hz or lower at 24dB\octave). I don't know why Snoop you have them working so high.

I am using a low pass filter; otherwise, sound from the subs will bleed into the mains. 

 

MSO allows you to decide what frequency range to optimise and what frequencies to apply the various PEQs.  It depends on the problem you are trying to solve. I know that there are no problems with my implementation of MSO, with actual measurements a good match for MSO curve.  But the important thing is does the system sound good?  Is the bass to taste?  And are the subs integrated?  With the Kii Three so revealing, any issue with the subs integration shows up quickly.

 

On 04/04/2021 at 4:34 PM, Satanica said:

 

I don't think this is correct as this implies it is limited to a particular optimisation strategy, it is not. Remember the documentation mentions numerous optimsation strategies. MSO really makes no recommendation at what the crossover should be or if there should be one. MSO is a general purpose tool to automatically optimise subwoofers and bass frequencies within a desired frequency range and then you can choose to apply a crossover or not. If one was to use stereo subwoofers then one could potentially run them much higher than the typical omni-directional mono subwoofer crossover (less than 80Hz) and not risk localisation issues. EDIT: I just remembered that MSO only works on mono subwoofers.

Agree, MSO is only a tool.  It has 3 optimisation options. The tutorial intro discusses various optimisation strategies and what MSO does.

 

19 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

The short ansswer is ..... you want to experiment locations for each (un-EQed) woofer, that optimise the response flatness of all woofers.  (eg. locations where one is filling in the dips or peaks of another).   This isn't usually some symetrical layout that you see in a paper/book.

Agree, more subs in asymmetrical layouts  can lead to better results.  But sadly, am WAF constrained, so MSO has been useful.

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10 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

I am using a low pass filter; otherwise, sound from the subs will bleed into the mains. 

 

MSO allows you to decide what frequency range to optimise and what frequencies to apply the various PEQs.  It depends on the problem you are trying to solve. I know that there are no problems with my implementation of MSO, with actual measurements a good match for MSO curve.  But the important thing is does the system sound good?  Is the bass to taste?  And are the subs integrated?  With the Kii Three so revealing, any issue with the subs integration shows up quickly.

 

I might be wrong or confused but I don't think you have a low pass filter applied to your subwoofers.

Unless I'm mistaken where "MSO allows you to decide what frequency range to optimise and what frequencies to apply the various PEQs" simply dictates the  correction range that is applied to them.

Perhaps @davewantsmoore can chime in.

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1 minute ago, Satanica said:

I might be wrong or confused but I don't think you do have a low pass filter.

image.png.5f0892773bd0a8544800de5484cf59c9.png

Currently running this MSO config. 

 

2 minutes ago, Satanica said:

Unless I'm mistaken where "MSO allows you to decide what frequency range to optimise and what frequencies to apply the various PEQs" simply dictates its correction range.

Can you point me to the documentation which says this. 

 

You can choose not to use LPF within MSO, add it manually in DSP.  Or you can add LPF, set it manually and exclude from optimisation.  Or add a LPF and let MSO optimise.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

image.png.5f0892773bd0a8544800de5484cf59c9.png

Currently running this MSO config.

 

Great, what is the frequency?

Lets say it is 80Hz and if so then how is EQ being applied all the way up 200Hz without EQ applied to your mains?

Unless I'm mistaken you've stated your Mains are not being EQ'd, correct?

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11 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Can you point me to the documentation which says this. 

 

You can choose not to use LPF within MSO, add it manually in DSP.  Or you can add LPF, set it manually and exclude from optimisation.  Or add a LPF and let MSO optimise.

 

OK, it appears to me now that I had that part wrong but the above questions still apply.

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21 minutes ago, Satanica said:

Great, what is the frequency?

Lets say it is 80Hz and if so then how is EQ being applied all the way up 200Hz without EQ applied to your mains?

Unless I'm mistaken you've stated your Mains are not being EQ'd, correct?

Currently choosing to use 130 Hz, solving issue below that.  MSO has freedom to go below. And PEQS are applied below that.  I am actively listening for sub integration problems and I am measuring the results.

 

If you are more comfortable with using 80 Hz, then use that; MSO can only solve issues below 80 Hz. 

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39 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Currently choosing to use 130 Hz, solving issue below that.  MSO has freedom to go below. And PEQS are applied below that.  I am actively listening for sub integration problems and I am measuring the results.

 

If you are more comfortable with using 80 Hz, then use that; MSO can only solve issues below 80 Hz. 

 

Righto, is that both subs or just the L (Left)?

Is MSO choosing or was that you?

 

So at 130Hz at 24dB\Octave the subwoofers will already be 6b down.

I don't have something to simulate with in front of me but I don't think you'll have much EQ potential above 125Hz and of course won't be able to EQ the Left and Right channels independently.

 

At the moment I think you'll have little to no EQ applied above about 125Hz and will have two mono subwoofers that are being crossed over at frequencies far higher than is typical.
You might not have noticeable localisation issues if your two subwoofers are somewhat symmetrically laid out as that would place those frequencies centre between them anyway rather than to one side, I think.

I have to mention again I think some of the KII THREE cardioid will be overridden by the subwoofers working higher than 50Hz.

From memory @gibbo9000 has his subwoofer low passed and hi KII THREE's high passed at 50Hz.

In my case yes I would not feel comfortable with my subwoofers crossed over any higher than 80Hz; I think it would be a bit overkill anyway as my mains have two 10inch drivers each.

 

It seems like MSO could also EQ your mains and therefore you could be getting EQ higher up in frequency range but of course as discussed you'd need to forego DSD.

Like many things in audio its all about compromises and obviously DSD is high on your list.

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27 minutes ago, Satanica said:

Righto, is that both subs or just the L (Left)?

Is MSO choosing or was that you?

 

So at 130Hz at 24dB\Octave the subwoofers will already be 6b down.

I don't have something to simulate with in front of me but I don't think you'll have much EQ potential above 125Hz and of course won't be able to EQ the Left and Right channels independently.

 

At the moment I think you'll have little to no EQ applied above about 125Hz and will have two mono subwoofers that are being crossed over at frequencies far higher than is typical.
You might not have noticeable localisation issues if your two subwoofers are somewhat symmetrically laid out as that would place those frequencies centre between them anyway rather than to one side, I think.

Have LPF for both subs, and letting MSO choose for me.  Often, but not always, MSO maxes out.  I could of course play with different LPF values and see what MSO does.  Have no issues bove 125 Hz.  My left sub is not on the speaker plane, skewed left.  Because of that, I pay close attention to it.

 

31 minutes ago, Satanica said:

I have to mention again I think some of the KII THREE cardioid will be overridden by the subwoofers working higher than 50Hz.

From memory @gibbo9000 has his subwoofer low passed and hi KII THREE's high passed at 50Hz.

My next project is looking at doing this.  I cannot hear any impact MSO with subs, have on sound stage, details. I can instantly mute, unmute the subs through my music player and have not heard any differences.  Does not mean that cardiod pattern has not been affected, just not audible.

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1 minute ago, Snoopy8 said:

My next project is looking at doing this.  I cannot hear any impact MSO with subs, have on sound stage, details. I can instantly mute, unmute the subs through my music player and have not heard any differences.  Does not mean that cardiod pattern has not been affected, just not audible.

 

For sure, its very easy to overstate how audible if at all artifacts can be.

 

Anyway I think this is a good discussion.

I guess I'm just of the mind that the improvement in my system might be subtle at best; I don't know.

If I were to use it it would be round 1 of correction on my two subwoofers working range (<80Hz) before running Dirac Live over the entire frequency range and from what I gather that would get a tick of approval.

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5 hours ago, Satanica said:

Lets say it is 80Hz and if so then how is EQ being applied all the way up 200Hz without EQ applied to your mains?

 

Send full range signal to subwoofer (measure subwoofer response)

Correct subwoofer(s) response to be "flat" up to 200Hz (or whatever Hz you like)

Add lowpass filter at 80Hz (or whatever Hz you like).

Add complimentary high-pass filter to mains (maybe, optional, but let's keep it simple)

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3 hours ago, Satanica said:

Anyway I think this is a good discussion.

I guess I'm just of the mind that the improvement in my system might be subtle at best; I don't know.

If I were to use it it would be round 1 of correction on my two subwoofers working range (<80Hz) before running Dirac Live over the entire frequency range and from what I gather that would get a tick of approval.

 

  1. Position subwoofers so their un-EQed combined response is flattest
  2. EQ subwoofers (individually) so their combined response is flattest (MSO can help optimise this) .... You should do this at least to an octave above their intended cutoff.
  3. Level matching with mains / Add LPF to subwoofer
  4. Should now have a "flat" response for subs + mains, including through XO region
  5. EQ combined mains/subs, to both correct errors, and to "taste" .... something like Dirac is great.

 

In step 1 and 2... if there is to be significant overlap with subs and mains...... then the "combined response" should be of all bass sources, ie. subs and mains.

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5 hours ago, Satanica said:

From memory @gibbo9000 has his subwoofer low passed and hi KII THREE's high passed at 50Hz.

Thats pretty close.  After reading through as much as I could find on the Kii's I took the approach (right or wrong) of trying to protect the Kii cardiod distribution while shifting some of the low frequency load from Kii to Sub to free up the Kii's bottom end SPL limit.  Free from the @Snoopy8 constraint of protecting DSD, it was easy to use the miniDSP for preset x-overs at 30, 50 and 80 Hz using LPF for sub and matching HPF for Kii's.  For normal listening I use 30Hz with a Dirac curve that just irons out the bottom end bumps (below 200Hz).  For a louder, heavier bass fix I use 50Hz with 2db boost below 200Hz, or 80Hz with 4db!  And (as is now obvious to me!), if I use the 30, 50 or 80Hz x-overs with my standard Dirac target curve they all sound the same - which is Dirac doing its job!

 

I did play a little using putting the HPF on Kii's themselves and LPF on Sub as @Snoopy8 is contemplating, but found it harder to set a 'zero gain' x-over and ultimately took the convenient path of using miniDSP. 

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1 hour ago, gibbo9000 said:

Thats pretty close.  After reading through as much as I could find on the Kii's I took the approach (right or wrong) of trying to protect the Kii cardiod distribution while shifting some of the low frequency load from Kii to Sub to free up the Kii's bottom end SPL limit.  Free from the @Snoopy8 constraint of protecting DSD, it was easy to use the miniDSP for preset x-overs at 30, 50 and 80 Hz using LPF for sub and matching HPF for Kii's.  For normal listening I use 30Hz with a Dirac curve that just irons out the bottom end bumps (below 200Hz).  For a louder, heavier bass fix I use 50Hz with 2db boost below 200Hz, or 80Hz with 4db!  And (as is now obvious to me!), if I use the 30, 50 or 80Hz x-overs with my standard Dirac target curve they all sound the same - which is Dirac doing its job!

Thank you.  Your SHD adventure was one the reasons why I started my own bass integration journey.  That particular DSD requirement caused much angst and I was tempted a number of time to go for a SHD Studio or maybe a Anti-Mode X4, both of which would have been much easier to implement.  My final solution looked relatively simple now, but it required finding new ways to do things.

 

Dirac delivers excellent results, without requiring detailed DSP knowledge.  That is its strength. 

 

1 hour ago, gibbo9000 said:

I did play a little using putting the HPF on Kii's themselves and LPF on Sub as @Snoopy8 is contemplating, but found it harder to set a 'zero gain' x-over and ultimately took the convenient path of using miniDSP. 

Was thinking of a combination of lowering the boundary setting and apply the tone control to the Kii or apply the LP filter.  I will let MSO determine the XO for the subs. 

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@Snoopy8 Is your target setup for stereo?

 

Have you tried the multiple satellite measurement optimisation?

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5 minutes ago, WasM said:

@Snoopy8 Is your target setup for stereo?

 

Have you tried the multiple satellite measurement optimisation?

I use it for stereo with dual subs. Also using dual subs in MSO subs only config for HT.

 

Sorry, have not done multi satellites, was developed in the past 12 months when I was away from MSO.

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14 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Dirac delivers excellent results, without requiring detailed DSP knowledge.

 

I don't really agree. Unless I'm mistaken you've only used it in a surround setup.

 

In a 2ch setup with the miniDSP SHD there is no subwoofer object(s) but rather just two speakers so you really have to do the following:

 

1. Decide crossover points and slopes of subwoofers and mains and set in SHD.

2. Decide gain values and set in SHD (probably with REW).

3. Potentially time align subwoofers to mains (probably with REW) and in @gibbo9000's case a seperate miniDSP unit is needed to provide the appropriate "time wastage" for the KII THREE's (90 milliseconds?).

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/acoustic-measurements/292-rew-timing-ht

Set in SHD.

 

All of the above are done independetly before even using Dirac.

 

4. Decide polarity of subwoofers and set in SHD based on intitial measurements (probably with Dirac).

5. Use Dirac to measure one or more positions.

6. Experiment with Dirac room curves for best subjective results.

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3 hours ago, Satanica said:

 

I don't really agree. Unless I'm mistaken you've only used it in a surround setup.

 

In a 2ch setup with the miniDSP SHD there is no subwoofer object(s) but rather just two speakers so you really have to do the following:

 

1. Decide crossover points and slopes of subwoofers and mains and set in SHD.

2. Decide gain values and set in SHD (probably with REW).

3. Potentially time align subwoofers to mains (probably with REW) and in @gibbo9000's case a seperate miniDSP unit is needed to provide the appropriate "time wastage" for the KII THREE's (90 milliseconds?).

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/acoustic-measurements/292-rew-timing-ht

Set in SHD.

 

All of the above are done independetly before even using Dirac.

 

4. Decide polarity of subwoofers and set in SHD based on intitial measurements (probably with Dirac).

5. Use Dirac to measure one or more positions.

6. Experiment with Dirac room curves for best subjective results.

Your process is complicated because you chose to do it with the SHD in all its complexity.

 

For most people, it is a matter of setting the box, connect the speakers & subs and then follow the Dirac process and it is done. Setting up Dirac with an AVR for HT or in the NAD C658 for stereo is no different. Yes, you can tweak the target curves, but that is optional and does not need understanding of DSP.

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2 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Your process is complicated because you chose to do it with the SHD in all its complexity.

 

For most people, it is a matter of setting the box, connect the speakers & subs and then follow the Dirac process and it is done. Setting up Dirac with an AVR for HT or in the NAD C658 for stereo is no different. Yes, you can tweak the target curves, but that is optional and does not need understanding of DSP.

 

I've simply done the miniDSP way virtually to the letter as per the documentation. I don't consider it trivial. 

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1 minute ago, Satanica said:

I've simply done the miniDSP way virtually to the letter as per the documentation. I don't consider it trivial. 

The miniDP SHD was designed for people like you who need and desire the functionality and know some DSP. Thus their processes reflect that and I agree it is not trivial.

 

But the SHD can also be used simply by connecting the speakers & subs and running Dirac.  It is in one way, a waste of the SHD capabilities, but the results may be enough to satisfy many people....

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@Satanica, @gibbo9000 , have some new information.

 

Added a high pass filter to the Kii at 80 Hz, and remeasured everything and re-ran MSO.  However, the Kii with high pass filter + Subs affected the SQ.  The high pass filter reduced the dynamics, sound stage.  I may experiment with other filters at different cutoff frequency but right now, this particular approach is not looking good.

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16 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

@Satanica, @gibbo9000 , have some new information.

 

Added a high pass filter to the Kii at 80 Hz, and remeasured everything and re-ran MSO.  However, the Kii with high pass filter + Subs affected the SQ.  The high pass filter reduced the dynamics, sound stage.  I may experiment with other filters at different cutoff frequency but right now, this particular approach is not looking good.

 

Interesting but I'm not that surprised by this. If memory serves me right you have a 13 inch and a 12 inch SVS sealed subwoofer so your overall sound could have been benefitting from the Kii's lending a hand down low. 

 

My first thoughts of experimentation was for you to set an 80Hz low pass filter for your subs most importantly and perhaps a high pass to the Kii's at 50Hz. But there are so many combinations it is mind boggling. This got me thinking does anyone know what the BXT module addition does presumably with a settings change or upload to lighten the load to the main modules? I'm quite interested to know and whatever the change perhaps this could be somewhat replicated with subwoofers. 

 

My system comprises a couple of large SVS ported subwoofers and I don't feel like they need the extra effort from my mains below 80Hz but I do wonder if they could help as extra low bass sources ala Geddes style <shrug>. 

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3 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

The high pass filter reduced the dynamics, sound stage.

Interesting - not sure I have seen, but where are your subs positioned?  Along with the Kii's facing forward, or somewhere else?  Kii noted in one of the discussions that they prefer x-over at 30Hz and with subs facing forward alongside Kii's so they notionally contribute to the Cardiod distribution and don;t drive refelections off rear/side walls etc.  (not sure that stands up in practice - but is what they suggested)

 

3 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

The miniDP SHD was designed for people like you who need and desire the functionality and know some DSP.

At risk of getting off topic, the SHD Studio is, as picked up here, multiple devices in one.  Powerful DSP, Digital Preamp and Dirac Live processor with overlay of 4 pairs of DSP Presets matched to Dirac optimisations.  Can be used in 'simple' mode with Dirac Standard curve alone and will be fine for most (but there are exceptions - and I was one - turned the Kii's overly bright).  The further you dig the more flexibility / options, and the greater measurement and setting management discipline required.

 

But this thread is about MSO and what it can add.  Interested to hear how the experimenting goes between the Kii's full bandwidth and Subs just filling gaps, versus HPF for Kii's and sub doing work below that.  

 

 

 

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I found this interesting regarding the KII's from: https://www.hifinews.com/content/kii-audio-three-bxt-loudspeaker

 

 

"Working In Unison
There is no crossover as such between the THREE and BXT. Rather, the BXT supplements the THREE below 250Hz, mimicking its behaviour while dividing the LF output among a larger number of drive units. As with the THREE, the THREE BXT radiates omnidirectionally up to 50Hz before transitioning to cardioid radiation above 80Hz. This is maintained up to 1kHz, at which point the directivity becomes dominated by that of the tweeter. It's this surrendering of DSP directivity control at HF which makes the THREE so much less complex than the BeoLab 90.

The benefit of cardioid directivity is simple – it radiates 4.8dB less energy into the room for the same on-axis SPL than an omnidirectional radiation pattern, which means you hear more of the loudspeaker and less of the room. Arguably as important as the constrained radiation angle is that it's essentially constant from 80Hz to 1kHz, which means that – over this frequency range at least – early reflections from room boundaries will have the same spectral content as the direct sound, which makes it easier for us to recognise them as reflections and fuse them with the speaker's forward output."

 

 

So from what I can gather between about 50Hz to 80Hz there is a transition zone and not becoming a true cardioid until about 80Hz.

To me this makes sense as frequencies between 50Hz to about 80Hz are still omni-directional and are seemingly only somewhat controllable with the side woofers.

So this to me confirms that a subwoofer crossover at about 80Hz (or lower) should have minimal to no noticeable damage to the radiation properties of the KII's.

 

So this is what I'd be tempted to try:

50Hz High Pass to KII's and allow MSO to EQ them as far as comfortable (200-300Hz?)

80Hz Low Pass to Subwoofers and obviously allow MSO to EQ them.

Mulitple target curves using MSO (i.e. Flat, Bass Boost 1dB, Bass Boost 2dB, Bass Boost 3dB or whatever).

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18 hours ago, Satanica said:

Interesting but I'm not that surprised by this. If memory serves me right you have a 13 inch and a 12 inch SVS sealed subwoofer so your overall sound could have been benefitting from the Kii's lending a hand down low. 

 

My first thoughts of experimentation was for you to set an 80Hz low pass filter for your subs most importantly and perhaps a high pass to the Kii's at 50Hz. But there are so many combinations it is mind boggling.

I think the Kii filter that is causing the SQ problem.  I did try a number of filters and measured them and selected what I thought was a relatively tame filter.  It was very time consuming to play with filters and then combine with MSO filters, so abandoning this way..

 

15 hours ago, gibbo9000 said:

Interesting - not sure I have seen, but where are your subs positioned?  Along with the Kii's facing forward, or somewhere else?  Kii noted in one of the discussions that they prefer x-over at 30Hz and with subs facing forward alongside Kii's so they notionally contribute to the Cardiod distribution and don;t drive refelections off rear/side walls etc.  (not sure that stands up in practice - but is what they suggested)

According to this review, the side and rear woofers are working in tandem to provide the cardiod pattern from 50 to 250 Hz.  Hence, not surprised that Kii suggested placing the subs on the same plane and facing forward. 

 

One of my subs off the speaker plane and to the left of the left speaker.  😢   However, I managed get them to play nicely after tweaking MSO, but this was time consuming to get things just right. 

-----

Back to basics....

 

My objective is to integrate dual subs with the Kii and at the same time, minimise the impact on the cardiod pattern.  I know that using a 50 Hz LPF in MSO  had no impact on the bass.  After some systematic change and test, found that 70 to 90 Hz LPF wil give the bass I wanted.  So next step is fine tuning.

 

21 minutes ago, Satanica said:

So from what I can gather between about 50Hz to 80Hz there is a transition zone and not becoming a true cardioid until about 80Hz.

To me this makes sense as frequencies between 50Hz to about 80Hz are still omni-directional and are seemingly only somewhat controllable with the side woofers.

So this to me confirms that a subwoofer crossover at about 80Hz (or lower) should have minimal to no noticeable damage to the radiation properties of the KII's.

 

So this is what I'd be tempted to try:

50Hz High Pass to KII's and allow MSO to EQ them as far as comfortable (200-300Hz?)

80Hz Low Pass to Subwoofers and obviously allow MSO to EQ them.

Mulitple target curves using MSO (i.e. Flat, Bass Boost 1dB, Bass Boost 2dB, Bass Boost 3dB or whatever).

Thank you.  I was writing the above when you posted this.  It confirms that I am now on the right track.  And I do not need to play with any high pass filters. 

 

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      Item Condition: As described below Shipping Options: Shipping is available at agreed cost. Suburb or Town: Bulleen State: VIC Payment Method: Paypal, EFT Reason for selling: latest finds  
      Elton John – Live in Australia with the MSO
      1987 Australian OG 2LP black vinyl in gatefold
      (832 470-1)
      VG++/VG++
      This concert was the last to feature Elton's legendary stage costumes, which he had featured in his shows since the early 1970s.
      It was also his last show before undergoing throat surgery in January 1987.
      Despite being completely successful, the surgery prevented Elton from singing at all for several months and from touring for 18 months, AND, also permanently reduced his range from tenor to baritone - some notes were never again within his reach, like they were here.
      14 fantastic songs with Elton at his outrageous peak.
      Cover is really nice and clean, light white too, front, back and inside.
      hint of ring press on front and back is the worst I can find.
      The 'wrinkling' you might see towards the bottom front and back is just the reflection of the new Blake sleeve, and the album is much brighter than the photos show.
      Two awesome discs with barely a mark between them.
      Really, as New.
       

       
       

      ______________________________________________________________________________________________
       
      Delivery Methods:  NO PICKUPS SORRY - mail only.
      Bank transfers, or PayPal (Friends & Family only, no notes) are both welcome.
       
      STUFF YOU NEED TO KNOW:
              Once sold, a donation to SNA of 5% of items total will follow.
              Any title here gets a brand new inner and/or outer quality Blake sleeve as needed before shipping.
              I try and ship 3-4 days a week.

      THE SMALL PRINT:
             I fully guarantee everything I offer  - if you don't like any item for whatever reason, return it at my expense for a full refund, no questions asked (verified 30 day+ active Forum members only thanks)..
             Original contents are stored inside the cover.
      I try to ship all records themselves outside the cover, so any postal damage is minimised.
             I use mostly s/hand pre-made cardboard mailers for all orders, and these virtually guarantee safe arrival of your record (they are also MUCH faster to pack).
             Combined postage to anywhere in Australia at cost (or close enough) and is EXTRA (ie. not included in prices). 
            ABSOLUTELY NO LOCAL PICKUPS - don't ask - it's not going to happen.
      Complain to me loudly if anything goes wrong (although it barely ever does) - and it'll be fixed, in your favour.
    • By vintageguy
      Item Condition: Very Good Shipping Options: Pickup available and you can audition.,Shipping is available at agreed cost. Suburb or Town: Victoria Park State: WA Payment Method: Paypal, EFT, Cash on Pickup Reason for selling: Too Much Gear, Wife has Put Her Foot Down Further information:
      SOLD

      Pair of Cerwin Vega E-715
      Large Floor Standing Speakers
      Made in USA
      200 watt 3 way
      15" Bass
      5 " mid
      2 " Tweeter
      These are excellent Bass Slam speakers, and dont need a sub.
      come with grill covers.
      can deliver at buyers expence.
      pickup mullaloo or queens Park (perth)
       
      Photos:
       
      PLEASE READ
      If you are advertising multiple items, you must post one bulk price only, or post seperate ads for each item If you include any reference to pricing whatsoever in this section (excluding RRP), your ad will not be approved If you don't include photographs of the actual item being sold, your ad will not be approved








    • By Maddoggtannan
      Item Condition: Used, pretty good Shipping Options: Pickup available but audition is not available.,Shipping is available at agreed cost. Suburb or Town: Ascot Vale State: Victoria Payment Method: Cash, pay Id, PayPal Reason for selling: NLR Further information: no longer needed as I have enough bass out of current speaker set up. 12 inch aluminum driver. Lovely warm tight bass. Included power cable. Would rather pick up over shipping. Make me an offer if you want it. Cover isn't is as good of condition as the rest of it. Check pictures 
       
      Photos:
       
      PLEASE READ
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    • By Rolland
      Hi everyone, back again with another subwoofer review, a couple of months ago I decided to change out my Krix Seismix 3 MK7 with the model up, which is the Tektonix to see if there was any differences or improvements to see if it can be called an upgrade. So here's my review;
       
      Features:
       
      As far as I'm concerned its not typical for a manufacturer to use the same enclosure from one model to create a higher model, this is the case for the Tektonix where it uses the exact enclosure that the Seismix 3 MK7, as well as this the Tektonix uses what appears to be the same driver unit as the Seismix 3 MK7, so far then things don't look significantly different until we talk about the amplifier. The amplifier fitted to the Tektonix is the major difference on this unit, where the Seismix 3 MK7 uses a 350 watt rms amplifier, the Tektonix uses Krix's KDSA 450 watt rms amplifier which is also found on the bigger units such as; the Volcanix, Volcanix Slim and Cyclonix (powered). I really like that the Tektonix like the bigger units has the LCD display on the front which makes things a lot easier when it comes to making adjustments especially if you don't like to keep moving your sub to make those adjustments, speaking of adjustments the Tektonix has quite a fair amount of it including; level, crossover, auto sense or 12v trigger option, auto sense sensitivity, Q adjust, set-up lock to stop unwanted adjustment. On the back of the Tektonix amplifier we have; 12v trigger input, rca sub inputs L and R ( L is for Mono LFE connection in this case), High Level inputs and IEC power input with switch. 
       
      Set-up:
       
      I have recently during my time with the Tektonix have made some changes to my home theatre system, so as far as sources go the AV receiver I'm using with my theatre system is my recenlty bought Yamaha RX-V2085 (RX-A2080 equivilent) with the Sony UBP-X700 4K blu-ray player and a Marantz CD5005 (which I recently for $50 and repaired). As for speakers, I'm using a pair of (also recently bought) Fyne Audio F302's as my fronts, Polk Signature S30 as my centre and 2 pairs of Polk signature S10's for surround and Dolby Atmos/DTS-X effects. I left the level on the Tektonix at '-20' with the crossover at 'LFE' and because I was using 12v trigger I set the option from 'auto sense' to '12v trigger', I left the 'Q' on default which is '0.9' and phase was set for my area as '180' and that was all that was done on the unit itself, on the AVR I had my front speakers and subwoofer level set at '-6' with the centre at '-4' and surround set at '-5' with the heights set at '-2', crossovers on the AVR were set to '80Hz' for the Front three speakers and for the other speakers were set at '90Hz'. The Tektonix was positioned between my front left and my centre speaker with a couple of inches away from my wall.
       
      Performance:
       
      I started my listening test with some music to see how musical the Tektonix, so I played Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb" and noted straight away that this sub can easily do music, bass notes were flowing nicely with every beat sounding clear and tight with the right amount of punch that was not over exaggerated or boomy, I then played "Peaceful Easy Feeling" live by the Eagles and like playing Pink Floyd the Tektonix really did an amazing job of blending in with my front speakers and not standing out from them, but at the same time it gave the music that really nice realistic dimension to the sound, kick drums and bass guitar notes sounded seperated and very well defined, after the Eagles I played more wide range of music content and every time the Tektonix proved to be a great sub for music, staying tuneful and controlled even at high volumes without me having a second thought about the sound. As for movies I played a lot of movies such as; "Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker", "Aquaman", "Tron: Legacy" and "Avengers: Infinity War", to be honest I was really suprised because the Tektonix performed so well, it didn't just put out deep bass effects, on top of all that, every crash, thud, boom and crunch had great realism, dimension and dynamics to the sound and the Tektonix can go really loud if it has to, I have to say I am blown away to see a sub such as this do what it does especially given that it is not the size of some really big subs (svs) that I know of. The funny thing about the Tektonix is that even with all that power and performance in a smaller enclosure, I never once detected any port noise which is generally typical of many ported subs which shows that the engineering behind the Tektonix is fantastic.
       
      Comparison: 
       
      Krix Tektonix price for comparison: (RRP $1745) 
       
      Krix Seismix 3 Mk7 (RRP $1295): a lot of people that I know of have asked me if the Tektonix is any different from the Seismix 3 MK7 mainly because they both have the same cabinet and the short answer is yes there are some difference in terms of sound, firstly especially for movies where you get a lot of LFE, while the Seismix 3 MK7 has some good depth, the Tektonix takes it to another level where it sounds even deeper with a greater sense of scale, but at the same time it sounds a bit more realistic and dynamics are a bit better too, while for music while both subs sound quite close, the Tektonix adds a bit more definition and sounds a little bit wider in the frequency spectrum to me than the Seismix 3 MK7 especially when listening to content with pipe organs. The Seismix 3 MK7 is still an excellent subwoofer within it's price range especially when compared to many subs around the same price, but obviously because the Tektonix is above the Seismix 3 MK7 in terms of product and price range, there really should be some differences anyway or else in my personal opinion it's not worth the upgrade.
       
      Klipsch SPL-120 (RRP $1999) : I got the chance to hear this subwoofer and its an ok subwoofer, it goes loud and it goes quite deep, but its not very musical so I would not recommended it for many cases where you are listening to music with a sub, the Tektonix is very superior in every way compared to the SPL-120 for music and even for movies while the SPL-120 is very loud and dynamic, but it doesn't sound as cinematic as the Tektonix does.
       
      SVS PB-2000 (RRP $1750) : I do like svs subwoofers especially given the price to performance ratio, so how does the PB-2000 compare to the Tektonix, well the PB-2000 surely goes deeper than the Tektonix and because the PB-2000 has a bigger driver, it can also go louder and it sounds quite cinematic, however when it comes to realism I feel the Tektonix gives more of it and is more cinematic while at the same time keeping a big scale sound and when it comes to music, the PB-2000 is pretty good, but can sound a bit slow and slightly boomy with certain music content, whereas the Tektonix sounds quicker and more tuneful and of course if size matters the PB-2000 is way bigger than the Tektonix, the SB-2000 and even the Volcanix.
       
      Richter Thor 10.6 (RRP $1699): I have always had a liking towards Richter subwoofers, but the 10.6 definitely gives the Tektonix a run for its money and all I can say is that both subs do extremely well in both music and movies, in fact its a hard to pick one over the other for there performance, but if you do value features then they do differ in that area, the Thor 10.6 has dsp control for music, home theatre and merlin mode. whereas the Tektonix doesn't and all the controls on the Thor 10.6 are on the back of the unit, whereas the Tektonix has control on an LCD display on the front of the unit. The Richter Thor 10.6 unlike the Tektonix has an XLR balance input and XLR balance pass-through along with the usual RCA and high level inputs.
       
      Conclusion:
       
      Overall I have to say that I really like the Krix Tektonix, it does everything that a good subwoofer should do and given the size of this unit, it will fit in many places, while putting out excellent bass sound for movies, music and even gaming content, now of course I had the Seismix 3 MK7 prior to the Tektonix and would I say that this is an upgrade? It sure is, In fact I liked the Tektonix so much that I actually purchased a second unit because well, how can you go wrong with that.
       

       
       
    • By Rori
      Item Condition: 8.5/10 Shipping Options: Pickup available but audition is not available.,Pickup available and you can audition.,Shipping is included in price. Suburb or Town: Emerald State: Victoria Payment Method: Cash, EFT, Paypal Reason for selling: NLR Further information: 
      2 years old, purchased from Big Picture People Narre Warren.
      Plenty of reviews online about this subwoofer. It has 2 x 12" drivers opposing each other to cancel out vibrations. The outcome is clear, low distortion and clean bass.
      The customization for best in room response from the amp is second to none with low pass filtering, phase alignment, gain and when measuring with the PBK kit (supplied) can give close to perfectly flat frequency response.
      This sub looks amazing especially in piano gloss black. Can ship however it does weigh 65kg's... I have all boxes and accessories for it.
      See specs and pics below.
       
      Specs: 
      BalancedForce 212
      System Frequency Response 18–120 Hz ±3dB; Anechoic through LFE effects input 20–120 Hz ±3dB; 
      Low Pass Filter Frequencies 30 - 80Hz 
      Phase 0°, 90°, 180°, 270° 0°
      25Hz Level Control ±10dB at 25Hz ±10dB at 25Hz
      Power Control On, Auto (12V Trigger), Off On, Auto (12V Trigger), Off
      Room Correction Perfect Bass Kit (PBK) Ready (Sold Separately)
      Woofers Two 12" (30.5cm) cast-basket, highexcursion, aluminum cone with extended throw driver assembly, sealed non-resonant asymmetrical chamber format 
      Amplifiers 2 x 850 watts
      (3,400 watts peak system total) 850 watts
      (1,700 watts peak)
      Inputs RCA: Left, Right and LFE.
      XLR: Left, Right and LFE.
      Speaker Level: Left and Right banana jacks.
      12V Trigger: 3.5mm
      Mini USB (for PBK)
      USB (for crossover & firmware updates) RCA: Left, Right and LFE.
      XLR: Left, Right and LFE.
      Speaker Level: Left and Right banana jacks.
      12V Trigger: 3.5mm
      Mini USB (for PBK)
      USB (for crossover & firmware updates)
      Output (RCA) Multi Out (for multi-sub connection) Multi Out (for multi-sub connection)
      Input Impedance RCA: 10,000 Ohms
      XLR: 15,000 Ohms per phase
      Speaker Level: 10,000 Ohms per phase (20,000 Ohms red to black)
      Power Draw Typical: 250 Watts
      Idle: 30 Watts Typical: 125 Watts
      Idle: 15 Watts
      Weight 140lbs. (63.5kg) each 96lbs. (43.5kg) each

      Overall Dimensions
      HxWxD  ( 57.4cm x 57.4cm x 58.2cm)
      Photos: Advertisements without photos of the actual item will not be approved.








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