andyr Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Paul Spencer said: That would only apply to an anechoic far field measurement on axis. With an in-room measurement we expect to see the response fall towards the top end - in fact that's also generally desirable. Even so, typically you will notice the difference between a response that is sloping down and one which is rolling off rapidly. Not quite sure I understand you, Paul? Sure I understand that in-room, a speaker that is quoted as "X to 20kHz" might slope down to be more than -3dB @ 20kHz (as the "X to 20kHz" is the result of anechoic far field measurement on axis - and we are neither listening in an anechoic chamber nor listening on axis) ... but the FR which Peter posted - with a steep drop-off from 9kHz - is not living up to the Magnepan spec of "X to 20kHz" by a long way! So is this divergence due to: the tweeter doesn't live up to Magnepan's specs? the microphone has a problem picking up above 10kHz? the amp has a problem driving HFs? or the mic is in the wrong place - like, should it be pointed towards the speaker ... or pointed down to the floor? Andy Edited June 21, 2018 by andyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdDrawerDown Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 @gonefishing999 no taps on the Cary 120S. The valve that needed to be changed was a 6SN7. After a mere 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 16 hours ago, andyr said: Not quite sure I understand you, Paul? Sure I understand that in-room, a speaker that is quoted as "X to 20kHz" might slope down to be more than -3dB @ 20kHz (as the "X to 20kHz" is the result of anechoic far field measurement on axis - and we are neither listening in an anechoic chamber nor listening on axis) ... but the FR which Peter posted - with a steep drop-off from 9kHz - is not living up to the Magnepan spec of "X to 20kHz" by a long way! So is this divergence due to: the tweeter doesn't live up to Magnepan's specs? the microphone has a problem picking up above 10kHz? the amp has a problem driving HFs? or the mic is in the wrong place - like, should it be pointed towards the speaker ... or pointed down to the floor? Andy Hard to say without seeing the setup but I'd rule out mic issues if using a suitable measurement mic. Some laptop sound cards can give you bad results, or if he is using DSP (sorry just had a quick look) there is the chance of having a low pass filter that needs to be disabled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 I thought I asked in this thread without starting a new one. On any Magnaplanar panel, has anyone successfully removed the trim on the edge to aces the crossover or to do repair works? I’ve heard that you slide it to the top or to the bottom, but unsure how to do this without using excessive force and damaging the sock... any input would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost4man Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 37 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: I thought I asked in this thread without starting a new one. On any Magnaplanar panel, has anyone successfully removed the trim on the edge to aces the crossover or to do repair works? I’ve heard that you slide it to the top or to the bottom, but unsure how to do this without using excessive force and damaging the sock... any input would be great. Yes. Just have to be gentle mate that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 18 hours ago, ghost4man said: Yes. Just have to be gentle mate that's all. What about sliding it back on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost4man Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Addicted to music said: What about sliding it back on? Mate you just have to be gentle when putting on and taking off. The key here is to not put a time limit on what you are going to do and just take as much time as is necessary. Remove any side strips. The biggest part of the job are the staples at the bottom. What I did here was use a sharp knife and pry under each staple. I did it in such a way to be able to reuse each staple without the need for a more heavy duty stapler usually assigned to furniture work. Take photos so you can mimic how the felt has been folded at the bottom. Where the XO's are is simply a case of unscrewing and sliding through the cut felt. Hope that helps. Ozzie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 @ghost4man ozzie youre a very patient person dude! i haven’t seen the XO of the 1.7 sliding out on a board! If that’s what you’re saying. Then again it’s hard to tell behind the sock! What I’m worried about is how it slips back on without damaging the sock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost4man Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 On 21/06/2018 at 9:24 PM, andyr said: Not quite sure I understand you, Paul? Sure I understand that in-room, a speaker that is quoted as "X to 20kHz" might slope down to be more than -3dB @ 20kHz (as the "X to 20kHz" is the result of anechoic far field measurement on axis - and we are neither listening in an anechoic chamber nor listening on axis) ... but the FR which Peter posted - with a steep drop-off from 9kHz - is not living up to the Magnepan spec of "X to 20kHz" by a long way! So is this divergence due to: the tweeter doesn't live up to Magnepan's specs? the microphone has a problem picking up above 10kHz? the amp has a problem driving HFs? or the mic is in the wrong place - like, should it be pointed towards the speaker ... or pointed down to the floor? Andy Andy, You raise some interesting possibilities. In answer to 1: Quite possible. These are newish tweeter drivers as you are aware so one could hardly attribute a deficiency in performance due to a physical issue. 2. Not possible. The multiple sets of graphs clearly show that this is not the case. 3. Unlikely although one cant totally exclude this. Its the case that the amplifier did deal with the TR without issue. Dealing with it is one thing. Getting it to excel is another. 4. I agree it could be. Mic positioning is always problematic especially in a non perfect set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost4man Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 It has come to our attention that one of our flat panel members has an amplifier that leaves the Magtech in its wake. What mythical beast is this. It is alleged it is a valve amplify as well. Something of a cryptic message has appeared from @Pointsource with this offering: I am running a Freya into either a Magtech or my glorious Jadia Defy DA7. @djb has also heard the pre and we both think it is punching way way above the price point. Care to comment gentleman on this unicorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdDrawerDown Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 But shirley it's the power amps which make the difference and is the reason to buy the sanders and amps of that ilk Not a pre-amp, as any preamp will do? Intriguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, ThirdDrawerDown said: But shirley it's the power amps which make the difference and is the reason to buy the sanders and amps of that ilk Not a pre-amp, as any preamp will do? Intriguing. Shirley, here! You're being disingenuous, Murray - the preamp feeding a power amp makes a difference to its sound ... as do the cables connecting the two! However, yes, the essential thing is ... does the amp have enough balls to control the drivers well. If it does then a preamp won't turn a harsh-sounding ss amp (like a Bryston, say) into an amp which sounds like a Jadis ... but it will improve the way the ss amp sounds. Andy Edited July 24, 2018 by andyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost4man Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, andyr said: Shirley, here! You're being disingenuous, Murray - the preamp feeding a power amp makes a difference to its sound ... as do the cables connecting the two! However, yes, the essential thing is ... does the amp have enough balls to control the drivers well. If it does then a preamp won't turn a harsh-sounding ss amp (like a Bryston, say) into an amp which sounds like a Jadis ... but it will improve the way the amp sounds. Andy Andy My curiosity Andy extends to the suggestions that the Jadis smokes the Magtech to the extent that the Jadis sounds a whole lot better. Edited July 24, 2018 by ghost4man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdDrawerDown Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 My mistake. I thought that a preamp was the subject of curiosity. Grasshopper has much to learn. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Point source Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 1 hour ago, ghost4man said: It has come to our attention that one of our flat panel members has an amplifier that leaves the Magtech in its wake. What mythical beast is this. It is alleged it is a valve amplify as well. Something of a cryptic message has appeared from @Pointsource with this offering: I am running a Freya into either a Magtech or my glorious Jadia Defy DA7. @djb has also heard the pre and we both think it is punching way way above the price point. Care to comment gentleman on this unicorn Nope Unicorn is alive and well and SMOKES Magtech by a margin that is noticeable to Golden Eared Mortals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost4man Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 1 minute ago, Point source said: Nope Unicorn is alive and well and SMOKES Magtech by a margin that is noticeable to Golden Eared Mortals. Details my friend, details. Photos would be welcomed. Capitalising the smoke has one even more intrigued. Its a big call to smoke a Sanders hence the interest. And I believe your honest appraisal as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 Tubes will always sound better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost4man Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 1 minute ago, Addicted to music said: Tubes will always sound better... Look thats true but this amp is driving three panels per side and smoking a sanders and thats on Brian's maggies which have a true ribbon as well. And smoking a Sanders along the way. Thats no easy feat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdDrawerDown Posted July 24, 2018 Author Share Posted July 24, 2018 I think I got lost on "djb has heard the pre ..." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 1 hour ago, andyr said: but it will improve change the way the ss amp sounds. There we go...fixed that for ya... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 1 hour ago, ghost4man said: My curiosity Andy extends to the suggestions that the Jadis smokes the Magtech to the extent that the Jadis sounds a whole lot better. I must admit, Ozzie, that I'm curious too!. But specs don't tell all - sometimes you have to listen ... and I haven't heard Brian's Jadis! 14 minutes ago, Rob181 said: There we go...fixed that for ya... You changed the word I wrote - "improves" - to "changes". IME, Rob, a good tube preamp in front of a good ss amp will always sound better than a good ss preamp in front of the same ss amp. With one proviso - that the Zout of the tube preamp must be low enough not to cause a problem with the Zin of the ss power amp. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, andyr said: You changed the word I wrote - "improves" - to "changes". Yep...I did...'cause "improves" is an opinion... The sound can (& usually does) change with a tube pre... Whether the is an improvement or otherwise is up to each listener to decide... I own a tube Pre...I spent a couple of years researching impedance matching... Then bought a SS power amp to partner it...due to circumstances beyond my control... I am yet to hear them together...but they got some very tough competition... From my SS combo that I have heard together & it will take some beating... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 8 minutes ago, Rob181 said: Yep...I did...'cause "improves" is an opinion... The sound can (& usually does) change with a tube pre... Whether the is an improvement or otherwise is up to each listener to decide... Absoloootely true! 8 minutes ago, Rob181 said: I own a tube Pre...I spent a couple of years researching impedance matching... Then bought a SS power amp to partner it...due to circumstances beyond my control... I am yet to hear them together...but they got some very tough competition... From my SS combo that I have heard together & it will take some beating... Apart from hearing friends' systems when they've bought tube preamps to use with their ss power amps, my comment is based on my own experience with Hugh Dean's 'hybrid' AKSA GK-1 and GK-2 preamps. By 'hybrid' I mean it's an ss preamp with a unity-gain, tube output buffer stage. So it has 2 outputs: coming from the tube, and bypassing the tube, coming from the ss stage. If you use the tube output into your power amp, you get a bit of that "beauticious tube, holographic loveliness". Not as much as a real tube stage - but more so than what the ss stage delivers. But if you feed your power amp (in a normal stereo, passive-speaker setup) with the 'sub output' - which bypasses the tube buffer - you get better bass leading-edge definition ... but the highs don't sound as delightful! So in my 4-way active system, I used the: tube output to feed the mids & ribbons, and ss output to feed the bass panels & the subs ... thus getting the best of both worlds. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonefishing999 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 The best preamp is none at all . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djb Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Zout should not cause a problem with the Zin of the ss power amp. Andy TDD and I suspect others understand the Yin and the Yang of this but the metaphysical nature of Zin as it interacts with Zout might require a deeper explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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