TWO WAY SPEAKERS ARE REALLY NOT VERY GOOD.

[TerryO]

Yesterday I picked up our PrimaLuna amp from Mike after he had upgraded the Caps. Before loading it up he plugged it into his current system which is a new pair of ML5 References that were being delivered today, the rest of his system was one of Clay's Grob DACs and the source was a server of some sort.

 

What did the music sound like through his two way speakers?

 

I played several different artists, mainly jazz, which I usually listen too now, which sounded excellent as the tubes warmed up. Then I asked Mike to put on Tin Pan Alley, I know it's easy to exaggerate about a topic one feels passionate about so I always try to measure my comments when it comes to HiFi, but on this occassion after listening to Tin Pan Alley through Mikes speakers I stood up and what blurted out of my mouth  was 'that is as close as I have ever come to a religious experience with music.' 

 

It seriously sounded that good, anyone who says 2-way speakers are ordinary have not listened to Tin Pan Alley on Mr Lenahans special speakers.

 

.... Terry

Edited March 16, 2018 by TerryO

[murrmax]

Now these may be 2 way speakers that are really good... http://www.reflector.audio/products/bespoke/e15.html

 

but they are not your typical 2 ways..

 

[blakey72]

Pointless argument IMO. It's comparing apples to oranges. There's good and bad in any design. I've had both 2 and 3 way and my 2 ways were a step up for me. 

[scuzzii]

@cheekyboy

 

Hi Keith,  just online for the first time in a week.  Those speakers of yours are looking excellent.  I forgot that you were working with Tony on those.  Coming up very classy, can't wait to hear them at some stage soon.  Happy to host a few ppl to demo them in a month or so after the Edison has arrived.

 

Exciting times.

[cheekyboy]

1 hour ago, scuzzii said:

@cheekyboy

 

Hi Keith,  just online for the first time in a week.  Those speakers of yours are looking excellent.  I forgot that you were working with Tony on those.  Coming up very classy, can't wait to hear them at some stage soon.  Happy to host a few ppl to demo them in a month or so after the Edison has arrived.

 

Exciting times.

 

Yes, John, I think there'll be a bit of interest in them for sure............they look and feel fantastic and we've done some extensive testing and tweaking of the sound too and I think they'll sound really good in your room. Our BR1 two ways were a real good fit in your room with great detail and a strong deep bass response. I think they surprised a lot of people on the day and I think these little two ways will do the same thing. I don't think we've had the BR2 2.5 ways in your room, but I definitely remember the BR3s and the bass energy they produced being somewhat overwhelming, till we did some emergency re positioning!

 

Anyhow, you don't have to worry about two ways or three ways, mate, your CH1s are one ways and they sound superb!

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited March 17, 2018 by cheekyboy

[Lenehan Audio]

Ok youse guys ! Just sold a pair of ML5  (2Ways) to this guy whose other speakers are these elcheapo 3WAY thingys. Raidho D5.1 that are RRP$300,000 (that’s for a pair though ?)

 

They were delivered yesterday and both sound quite good but I’m sure neither liked the other in their spaces .  Some closer setting up will reveal what speaker does what .  300K Verses 22K ?

and I’ll be going back with my own music to nut this out .

Cheers Mike Lenehan

[Wimbo]

9 minutes ago, Lenehan Audio said:

Ok youse guys ! Just sold a pair of ML5  (2Ways) to this guy whose other speakers are these elcheapo 3WAY thingys. Raidho D5.1 that are RRP$300,000 (that’s for a pair though ?)

 

They were delivered yesterday and both sound quite good but I’m sure neither liked the other in their spaces .  Some closer setting up will reveal what speaker does what .  300K Verses 22K ?

and I’ll be going back with my own music to nut this out .

Cheers Mike Lenehan

I looked the Raidhos up online. Thank god I got to see them from the side. Still can't see $300,000 in those.  Amazing how many speaker companies tend to take on John Dunlavys  baffle driver placement.Ohh well if you have the money go for it.

[AudioGeek]

Well, if we are talking value for money that is an amazing move.

 

What if we looked under $10k? I think the Wyndham range or the Hulgich Ella would be hard to pass up - and potentially compete with mega dollar speakers.

[Celts88]

@Lenehan Audio

 

Mike, that guy's just trying to copy me 

 

I'm getting my ML5's soon, I've already got a Devialet 1000Pro (can see he has Devialet O'dA - the gold one's), and he has a paradigm Sub-2 (mine is a Sub-1,; his is bigger than mine ).

 

Can't wait to hear what you/he think once the ML5's are set-up properly 

[muzzagruzz]

On 15/03/2018 at 12:20 PM, cheekyboy said:

 

I'm sure they will make the trip down to @scuzzii when we're finished, which is not far off now, with the last application of oil applied this morning [see pics below] and work has already started on the matching Rosewood stands. The internal packing has to be put back into each enclosure along with the crossover networks and the rear panels fitted, which will then need around four applications of oil to bring them up to the standard of the rest of the enclosure. We hope to have them finished and playing again by the end of this month and I'll definitely come back with more information when that happens.

 

The two way standmount will fill a void for us, as we have been able to offer two single full range loudpseakers in a conical horn design, a two way floorstander bass reflex, a 2.5 way floorstander bass reflex and a three way floorstander bass reflex, but till now, we haven't been able to offer a two way standmount.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

Hey Cheekyboy, 

 

They look awesome. Question for you about using solid timber for your speakers. I always thought solid timber was never a good idea because of resonance, hence the predominant use of MDF enclosures with wood veneer. 

 

How do you overcome the resonance problem, assuming their is one. Genuinely curious. If it’s a trade secret, I understand keeping close to your chest. 

 

Cheers 

 

muzzagruzz

[Jones99]

Happy to try ML5s  vs my current speakers in my system... .always open for change....change my paradigm please!

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

4 hours ago, muzzagruzz said:

Hey Cheekyboy, 

 

They look awesome. Question for you about using solid timber for your speakers. I always thought solid timber was never a good idea because of resonance, hence the predominant use of MDF enclosures with wood veneer. 

 

How do you overcome the resonance problem, assuming their is one. Genuinely curious. If it’s a trade secret, I understand keeping close to your chest. 

 

Cheers 

 

muzzagruzz

I thought I saw a layer of MDF(?) under the jarrah. I could be wrong. If I am right, then Cheekyboy might be using some variant of constrained layer construction. My favourite way of building a speaker box. 

[muzzagruzz]

2 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

I thought I saw a layer of MDF(?) under the jarrah. I could be wrong. If I am right, then Cheekyboy might be using some variant of constrained layer construction. My favourite way of building a speaker box. 

Yes, you’re right Zaph, should’ve seen that. Doh. 

 

Still, don’t often see solid wood speaker boxes but I sure do like the idea. It would make them pretty darn heavy though. 

[cheekyboy]

9 hours ago, muzzagruzz said:

Hey Cheekyboy, 

 

They look awesome. Question for you about using solid timber for your speakers. I always thought solid timber was never a good idea because of resonance, hence the predominant use of MDF enclosures with wood veneer. 

 

How do you overcome the resonance problem, assuming their is one. Genuinely curious. If it’s a trade secret, I understand keeping close to your chest. 

 

Cheers 

 

muzzagruzz

 

4 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

I thought I saw a layer of MDF(?) under the jarrah. I could be wrong. If I am right, then Cheekyboy might be using some variant of constrained layer construction. My favourite way of building a speaker box. 

 

2 hours ago, muzzagruzz said:

Yes, you’re right Zaph, should’ve seen that. Doh. 

 

Still, don’t often see solid wood speaker boxes but I sure do like the idea. It would make them pretty darn heavy though. 

 

Hello muzzagruzz,

 

We don't have an issue with resonance from the enclosures, but there are a few things that contribute to this. Trevor is correct, we do use an mdf enclosure inside the natural timber outer enclosure and there is a constrained layer between the two. Being a relatively small enclosure, the panels are not large and the enclosures have rigid bracing internally as well. We haven't weighed them yet, but you are correct again, they are pretty darn heavy. There is of course a lot more that goes into designing and getting this method of construction right and Tony has been using this method for years now and suffice to say, he has perfected this construction method.

 

I hope you can make it along to John's place [@scuzzii] when we bring them down to Sydney. John is just waiting on some system components to arrive before he holds his next GTG, but it should be in the next couple of months.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited March 17, 2018 by cheekyboy

[Lenehan Audio]

1 hour ago, muzzagruzz said:

Yes, you’re right Zaph, should’ve seen that. Doh. 

 

Still, don’t often see solid wood speaker boxes but I sure do like the idea. It would make them pretty darn heavy though. 

Hi muzz.    See pics of ML2Reference in solid Australian hardwood . 

Hardwood timbers can be superior to MDF in certain ways , I use a combination of HDF and MDF because both materials have more singular resonance nodes ! MDF for instance if left to itself rings at around 320/350hz (of course different size panels and thicknesses can lift this frequency) HDF has a different profile again

 

Hardwood though has a more mixed resonant profile so can be easier to damp . Ten years of continuous accelerometer testing made me give up on just using a single material for enclosures.

 

Cheekyboys constrained layer construct is a good start . I use a combination of constrained layer and Differential cancellation .

the latest ML2 for instance uses MDF/HDF with  4mm,6mm and 8mm steel plate laminated to various panels . That’s why they weigh 35kg’s

 

To design an enclosure with virtually zero energy storage takes hundreds of hours of accelerometer R&D and scores of test panels that can be screwed and clamped together for individual testing .     Regards.  Mike Lenehan

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

2 hours ago, muzzagruzz said:

Yes, you’re right Zaph, should’ve seen that. Doh. 

 

Still, don’t often see solid wood speaker boxes but I sure do like the idea. It would make them pretty darn heavy though. 

Of course, it depends on the solid timber, but MDF is generally heavier than most softer woods and heavier than many harder woods. (NB: I am not referring to 'hardwood' and 'softwood' here, as their characteristics vary wildly. IE: Balsa is classified as a 'hardwood'). 

 

Either way, Cheekyboy has delivered a speaker enclosure with the best of all possible characteristics. Jarrah and MDF possess quite different characteristics and thus will work to reduce resonance (particularly with the use of a compliant layer between). It's really good idea, that tends to be expensive to implement. Worth it, IMO. I've done a similar job a few times in the past and the results surpassed my expectations. I hasten to add, that my work was no where near the quality of Cheekyboy's. I would expect his enclosures to be amongst the best.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[muzzagruzz]

@Lenehan Audio

 

That bookshelf looks awesome, beautifully built. Wish I could listen to one some day. 

 

Thanks for the info on construction. What is HDF? How does it differ to MDF? 

 

@Zaphod Beeblebrox

 

Jarrah would be my favourite finish for speakers and is used on three of mine. Of course, they are largely constructed of MDF with quite sophisticated damping inside to reduce resonances and colouration. 

[allthumbs]

That is one pretty looking speaker Mr.Lenehan as if sculpted from a solid block of wood, seamless and voluptuous at the same time.

[cheekyboy]

4 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Of course, it depends on the solid timber, but MDF is generally heavier than most softer woods and heavier than many harder woods. (NB: I am not referring to 'hardwood' and 'softwood' here, as their characteristics vary wildly. IE: Balsa is classified as a 'hardwood'). 

 

Either way, Cheekyboy has delivered a speaker enclosure with the best of all possible characteristics. Jarrah and MDF possess quite different characteristics and thus will work to reduce resonance (particularly with the use of a compliant layer between). It's really good idea, that tends to be expensive to implement. Worth it, IMO. I've done a similar job a few times in the past and the results surpassed my expectations. I hasten to add, that my work was no where near the quality of Cheekyboy's. I would expect his enclosures to be amongst the best.

 

Thanks for words of support, Trevor. As you would be aware, all materials, mdf, hdf, natural timber be it Jarrah or Rosewood etc will resonate and the idea is to find a blend of those materials, including what you use as a constrained layer, panel thickness and the amount and placement of the internal bracing too. 

 

I've just been at the workshop for a few hours fitting the drivers and crossovers back into the enclosures. I love the hands on with this particular build and I dare say these vary considerably from other solid natural timber enclosures in the way we construct them, the glued draw lock system for the joining of all the panels and I love working that oil into the surface, watching and feeling the texture of the timber surface changing...............these aren't just sanded and then a couple of coats of low sheen polyurethane blown on with a spray gun. I had done my own oil finish to a couple of Jarrah turntable plinths years ago, that I thought came up really well, but doing the application of oil and bees wax with Tony on these enclosures, I must admit I'm learning a lot about how to get the best out of the application of the oil.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited March 18, 2018 by cheekyboy

[MusicOne]

I haven't viewed the whole of this thread, but let me assure members that there is at least one 2 way speaker which is very good indeed.....Wyndham Audio's (@cheekyboy ) BR1s.

 

Aussie made and made to a very high standard, with exceptional sound quality, as well: https://www.wyndhamaudio.com.au/products/wyndham-audio-br1-loudspeaker

 

[Crosscourt121]

On 19/02/2018 at 4:50 PM, Steve M said:

Hensa,

 

I used to like listening to the Maximus at about 1.2m out into room and move your head to a nearfield monitoring position about 1.8m from the speaker. It sorts out both the heavy bass, brings balance and midrange bite improves too. They have done a good job of that speaker, just a very refined and detailed sounding speaker when set up correctly.

 

Steve.

That sounds almost identical to how I have them.  I have them at 2m listening distance.  And they sound great.  

[Lenehan Audio]

On 18 March 2018 at 11:21 AM, muzzagruzz said:

@Lenehan Audio

 

That bookshelf looks awesome, beautifully built. Wish I could listen to one some day. 

 

Thanks for the info on construction. What is HDF? How does it differ to MDF? 

 

@Zaphod Beeblebrox

 

Jarrah would be my favourite finish for speakers and is used on three of mine. Of course, they are largely constructed of MDF with quite sophisticated damping inside to reduce resonances and colouration. 

Hi Muzz.   MDF is medium density fibre board and HDF is High density fibreboard

HDF is a bit hard to get unless you buy a pack of 20 sheets. 

Its not better than MDF it just has a different delay and  sound storage profile.

Cheers Mike 

 

[cheekyboy]

On 3/18/2018 at 4:08 PM, MusicOne said:

I haven't viewed the whole of this thread, but let me assure members that there is at least one 2 way speaker which is very good indeed.....Wyndham Audio's (@cheekyboy ) BR1s.

 

Aussie made and made to a very high standard, with exceptional sound quality, as well: https://www.wyndhamaudio.com.au/products/wyndham-audio-br1-loudspeaker

 

 

Thanks so much for the kind words, MusicOne, I'm glad you're still enjoying looking at and listening to your beautiful pair of black BR1s.

 

There's been a lot of discussion here that has been around two way standmount loudspeakers, a fair bit by yours truly too, but these BR1s are a true two way floorstander and they really don't take up any more real estate than a pair of standmounts and they are often easier to move.

 

MusicOne, your BR1s look a lot like these below.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by cheekyboy

[PKay]

18 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

 

Thanks so much for the kind words, MusicOne, I'm glad you're still enjoying looking at and listening to your beautiful pair of black BR1s.

 

There's been a lot of discussion here that has been around two way standmount loudspeakers, a fair bit by yours truly too, but these BR1s are a true two way floorstander and they really don't take up any more real estate than a pair of standmounts and they are often easier to move.

 

MusicOne, your BR1s look a lot like these below.

 

 

Front ported as well, I can't understand why there aren't more front ported speakers.

[MusicOne]

36 minutes ago, PKay said:

Front ported as well, I can't understand why there aren't more front ported speakers.

 

Yes agreed and I find front ported speakers are well suited for smaller listening rooms.....at least that's what I've found.

 

Now my great wish is to partner the BR1s with decent amplification, like these:

 

 

 

One day, perhaps.