AudioGeek Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Nice speaker progression @Celts88 and your setup/rooms look fantastic. I have also been usung HAF filters on my horn setup for about 6 months, mainly to fix bass issues related to the room, but also the crosstalk reduction makes the horns image like electrostats. With my Lenehan speakers, bass output us not enough to excite any room modes and they allready image pretty well - be intetested to hear your thoughts what they do for your ML3/5's @davewantsmoore - so how does HAF crosstalk reduction filters fit in with radiation and dispersion goals for speakers? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sime Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 8 hours ago, Lenehan Audio said: Your right Rob. We need someone to come along and actually change their mind ! Not likely though , egos generally reign I wish this was closer to home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almikel Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, AudioGeek said: I have also been usung HAF filters on my horn setup for about 6 months, mainly to fix bass issues related to the room, but also the crosstalk reduction makes the horns image like electrostats. and @Celts88 a quick google of HAF filters only gave me "High Airflow Filters". What are they and can you provide any links? cheers Mike Edited March 10, 2018 by almikel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celts88 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) @almikel Mike Below links to the HAF website, and another to a Roon thread about HAF. Not sure if you use Roon, but the thread gives good details about the filters, using REW to do the initial measurements (not only REW can be used, but costs nothing). With HAF you can send him 2 music files (it says only 1 file on his website, but he was happy for me to send 2 with different types of music), he will do his magic on your files and then you can try them in your system - all free to give you a flavour before spending any dosh: Home Audio Fidelity Roon Thread - Home Audio Fidelity Cheers John Edited March 10, 2018 by Celts88 More detail about HAF 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioGeek Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Just to add, the HAF filters can be configured to work in any software with a convolution engine. I find HQPlayer sounds better than Roon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celts88 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 AudioGeek I wonder if I could get the same results your finding with the HAF Filters via HQPlayer, but Roon within Roon? Means I can keep the Library Management benefits of Roon, but then get the SQ benefits of HQPlayer, do you know if this would be better (if you don't use Roon I supposed hard for you to say). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioGeek Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 I actually use Roon as a front end. Its very easy to set up HQP as an endpoint from roon particularly if they are on the same computer. However, it can be fiddly to set up HQP with your dac. I have all dsp disabled in Roon and do it all in HQP. You need different filters to work in HQP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 1 hour ago, AudioGeek said: the HAF filters can be configured to work in any software with a convolution engine. I find HQPlayer sounds better than Roon. I don't know what that means...sigh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioGeek Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Hmmm, managed to get way off topic. So, anyone have ML5's in Sydney? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 16 hours ago, AudioGeek said: so how does HAF crosstalk reduction filters fit in with radiation and dispersion goals for speakers? Do you mean this?! https://www.homeaudiofidelity.com/english/technology/ These filters are not modifying the directivity of the speaker. They are just altering the time response of a speaker (as much as they can). They (are a good thing, but) do not diminish the importance of having a well balanced directivity / power response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jones99 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) Agree with @THOMO. I have owned and heard quite a few 2 ways over the years but they cannot deliver enough dynamics ,separation, low octaves and spl to accurately represent a lot of music realistically.There are a lot of claims of speakers that run flat to 20hz but in reality they don't . I have owned large floor standers. with 4 x 8 inch woofers per speaker that run flat to a genuine 27hz . They hit you in the chest when low notes come on but I still felt I was missing something. Listen to a large floor stander in a room big enough that genuinely can go to 20Hz and you can never go back. Its just physics...nothing personal.. Edited March 10, 2018 by Jones99 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celts88 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 @Jones99 What about a 2 way with a sub integrated? Is this a compromise or a useful addition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jones99 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Celts88 said: @Jones99 What about a 2 way with a sub integrated? Is this a compromise or a useful addition? Isn't that a 3 way then .?? Yet to hear this combo match a large floorstander. A large floorstander with its greater height throws a bigger soundstage...physics again ..... Coherence and integration with a 2 way/sub that is not designed to be together is tricky ....has never been to my total satisfaction previously ....still waiting to hear one that does . Edited March 10, 2018 by Jones99 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jones99 said: Agree with @THOMO. I have owned and heard quite a few 2 ways over the years but they cannot deliver enough dynamics ,separation, low octaves and spl to accurately represent a lot of music realistically.There are a lot of claims of speakers that run flat to 20hz but in reality they don't . I have owned large floor standers. with 4 x 8 inch woofers per speaker that run flat to a genuine 27hz . They hit you in the chest when low notes come on but I still felt I was missing something. Listen to a large floor stander in a room big enough that genuinely can go to 20Hz and you can never go back. Its just physics...nothing personal.. Oh, I don't know. This is a 2 way speaker that offers a +/-3dB response down to 23Hz. I haven't seen measurements, but I betcha there is very useful output down to 20Hz. https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/neolith Edited March 10, 2018 by Zaphod Beeblebrox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOMO Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: Oh, I don't know. This is a 2 way speaker that offers a +/-3dB response down to 23Hz. I haven't seen measurements, but I betcha there is very useful output down to 20Hz. https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/neolith You want to see measurements of off -axis resonances with those type of speakers. I will post a new thread in this speaker section with link to a talk given by Floyd Toole of Harman in which he discusses some examples they have measured.Very interesting presentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pops110 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 4 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: Oh, I don't know. This is a 2 way speaker that offers a +/-3dB response down to 23Hz. I haven't seen measurements, but I betcha there is very useful output down to 20Hz. https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/neolith It’s s 3 way isn’t it Zaph ? Best sound I have ever heard. Running with Devialet Pro monoblocks with Metronome transport and Transparent cabling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 51 minutes ago, Pops110 said: It’s s 3 way isn’t it Zaph ? Best sound I have ever heard. Running with Devialet Pro monoblocks with Metronome transport and Transparent cabling. Correct you are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioGeek Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 11 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: Do you mean this?! https://www.homeaudiofidelity.com/english/technology/ These filters are not modifying the directivity of the speaker. They are just altering the time response of a speaker (as much as they can). They (are a good thing, but) do not diminish the importance of having a well balanced directivity / power response Dave, they talk about correcting the reverberated sound arriving at the listening position. Is this a way of "cheating" using dsp for speaker and room issues related to dispersion and and unbalanced reflections? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jones99 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 7 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: Oh, I don't know. This is a 2 way speaker that offers a +/-3dB response down to 23Hz. I haven't seen measurements, but I betcha there is very useful output down to 20Hz. https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/neolith I have heard this beast multiple times a lovely 3 way speaker and always enjoyed its sound. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 2 hours ago, AudioGeek said: Dave, they talk about correcting the reverberated sound arriving at the listening position. Is this a way of "cheating" using dsp for speaker and room issues related to dispersion and and unbalanced reflections? No... sorta, kinda.... but that is certainly what they loosely imply (so I can understand why people might think so). They're making it sound like they can fix/alter the directivity of a source .... and DSP can not do that. What they are doing is apply a correction to the impulse response, which is correcting the later arriving sound..... but it's an "average" of the complex reverberant field collected with a microphone (which changes drastically when moved even 10cm) .... nowhere near as effective as tackling the speaker radiation pattern at the source. So... in short, what they're doing is a good thing (and worthwhile) .... but you should also fix the speaker. Paradoxically, the worse the speaker, often the bigger/better the improvement is with in room impulse response correction ...... but the overall result is never superb. (example: speaker rated 3 out of 10, might go up to 6 out of 10 with correction ..... but a speaker rated 7 out of 10, might go up to 8) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawl99 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 On 09/03/2018 at 7:09 AM, AudioGeek said: Excessive bass required for certain genres/tastes can easily be dialled out for others. However, the opposite is difficult, particularly with a limited 2-way. I dont buy this classic comeback - "its natural sound, tone, timbre blah blah". Its all subjective, and as Tasso eloquently suggests - set up a system for yourself, not to meet others expectations. Dont trust the guy with the golden ears who tells you what you must have to do it right. There are several professional musicians, recording engineers, orchestra members on this forum. Its always interesting seeing what speakers and gear sounds right to them..... Generally dont see them lecturing others on how things should be done either, nor do they keep promoting one particular brand for all occassions. I have both 2 way, 3 way, and 4 way systems. None are right, none are wrong. This response cracked me up. We have ENDLESS circular arguments about accurate vs musical, subjective vs objective and the over-riding viewpoint that gets forcibly jammed into our minds is that accuracy is preferred subjectively in properly controlled testing.. I actually have no disagreement whatsoever with this viewpoint of accuracy viz a viz, reality of tonal balance, timbre, frequencey response - both on and particularly off-axis - etc is preferred by the very vast majority in blind testing. Folks dare suggest that a cable can make a difference and we get the response that their opinion doesn't mean sh111111t unless it is backed by DBT. I happen to mention that my VERY STRONG preference is a system that reproduces the tonal shades, timbre and nuance of live music (ie ACCURATE) and then I get your response above. And then Joz made a post a little later very similar, and there is another one in there somewhere as well espousing the 'as long as i like it I don't give a toss about anybody else's opinion. If "excessive bass" is required for a genre then that is PURELY a PERSONAL preference talking (and in the words of Newman it is NOT HiFi) because if a system is voiced to sound 'real' on acoustic music (and classical is a significant part of what i use as it has a VERY broad frequency and dynamic range) then it will make any other music sound like the recording IS. If you want to add a tone control and dump an extra 10-20db of doof doof on top of that, then that by me is just fine BUT please do not dump on somebody who is chasing the goal of realistic reproduction of music (assuming the recording is done well). Last time I checked the goal of "realistic reproduction of music" is commonly defined as HiFi. Very low 20s to over 20k is sufficient to reproduce all but the very occasional natural musical note eg organ at 16hz or double pedal bflat Tuba which is also approx 16hz. Most electronica that I have seen also fits into this range with VERY little content below 20Hz. If I want to produce what you seem to be talking about here i swap the speaker cables to my main speakers and drive them actively high passed at 40-60hz with Carver Power and use 2ea 1000+ watt 12 inch subs to fill in the bottom. That produces SPLs of 112dB ish which is sufficiently loud for most home environments. But, it does not have the same degree of that crappy "natural sound, tone, timbre blah blah" as the valve system. So, horses for courses. In reality if I just want to play very loud doof doof i would use a pair (or more) of 18inch horn-loaded bins like I would put in a pub or club with a couple of thousand watts of PA amp which will quite happily go down sub 20s and make your ears bleed if you want it to. MUCH cheaper than pretending to build a HiFi system. There are quite a number of 'Professionals' (including particular recording engineers) that will lecture on how to do it right but when I listen to the type of system they espouse it leaves me cold. So in essence I think you and Tasso are right. There is no one size fits all and no one system that is right but please keep your opinion re such things as chasing "natural sound, tone, timbre blah blah" firmly in its' bottle. We are not all happy with a PA system that plays loud and goes real low ( PLEASE do not infer that I am suggesting that you are---- that is not my intent behind these words at all --------I don't know your preferences from a bar of soap but your post above suggests an inkling----- ) but I do find your comments as i quoted above quite insulting and disrespectful of those that are chasing the goal of reproduction of natural acoustic sound. Cheers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioGeek Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Lol, its a discussion about audio gear - not life and death. Dont waste your emotional energy on comments from a stranger-ala me. Sorry i seem to have got you riled up. Lost in there was the fact that I disagreed with Thommo that 2 way speakers dont work, and I disagreed with you that 2 way is the only way a speaker can work. If I use a subwoofer it always seems to imply doof doof and an aversion for true music reproduction of natural sound. Oh well... Got to heat the Hulgich speakers today. Not that I didn't believe the Melbourne and Adelaide crews , but had to hear for myself. Damn, they are seriously awesome and dare I say it natural sounding! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warweary Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Interesting thread. The Klipsch rf7-ii & iii are both large floorstanding 2 ways which produce huge sound - are those the kinds of horn speakers mentioned earlier. I recall someone informing me that 3 ways have superior crossover points relative to 2 ways, is that true? I used to be happy with a 6+1 or 8+1 for a desktop loudspeaker but after adding dual 10 inch powered subs to a 6+1 I find the extra driver makes the sound better... but a subwoofer also improved sound in the main room too once integrated well. 2 way or 3 way or more, horses for courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawl99 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 On 09/03/2018 at 10:12 AM, Pops110 said: Hi Rawl, so does that mean the ML 5 are voiced to the type of music you listen to? Or just your set are voiced to how you like them? I know that @Darren69 is a bit of a bass pig and loves his heavy stuff so would imagine that they can handle any type of music well. But do they excel at acoustic classical and jazz etc and not quite so well at rock or metal? I had the pleasure of hearing Mario’s system a couple of times. Unbelievably life like. I was blown away by it. This was a highly modified system the had been voiced to the way Mario liked it. Some of the music he played gave me goosebumps, but not the music I would normally listen to. When I put on a couple of my cds that I was quite familiar with it fell apart and didn’t sound very good. I suppose what I’m getting at is it’s not just being 2 or 3 way, it’s the implementation of drivers, crossovers. But a lot also has to do with the type of music you listen to, how it’s recorded and also the room in which it all gets played in. Also what’s upstream of the speakers would also play a big part. I loved my old 2way standmounts, but I’m also loving my 2.5 way Sonique’s. With or with out sub. I can’t wait to hear the Lenehan kit speakers when they make it over here. Cheers Dave Dave, In short, no. In long: I did a lot of the voicing re detailed component selection for Mike L as he just does not get the opportunity to spend the time doing lengthy comparisons between resistors, caps, inductors etc etc. So i was happy to do that as part of the development cycle of the ML5 and then pass my suggestions to Mike L. He then did some comparisons based on my thoughts and suggestions and came up in agreement so that is the way it has been done. (Much easier/quicker to verify someone else's findings than to go through the tedious experimentation process) Most that know me are aware that the tonal shade and nuance and harmonic integrity are things that i strongly look for and that these aspects are absolutely built upon a solid bass response with low intermodulation distortion in to the low midrange. Very low cabinet colouration is also paramount. Mr Lenehan is a Bass Pig as anyone that knows him well will tell you. He has a strong focus on tight, articulate bass with correct balance and good extension. Add these 2 viewpoints together and that is what drove the design of the ML5. So the development focus for the ML5 I guess was to create a great all-round speaker that will play rock through to chamber and give as clear-as-possible a window into the music whilst maintaining as low distortion/colouration as possible BUT not hurting the harmonic structure/integrity of the musical signal. That takes a lot of care in the selection of parts, cabinet design, including stupid things like binding posts and internal wiring. The voicing of My ML5s is fundamentally the same as the top-level ones Mike is selling but I have different internal wiring in mine. Mine are built with Duelund VSF caps. Hope that clarifies a little for you. Rawl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murrmax Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) Quote I recall someone informing me that 3 ways have superior crossover points relative to 2 ways, is that true? Theoretically you should keep the xover out of the 800hz - 3500 hz as that's our most sensitive hearing range - most 'typical' commercial 2 ways do xover in this region as well as making the tweeter play midrange or make the midbass/ bass play upper midrange - neither is ideal for a number of reasons.. - there are 2 way designs that circumvent these issues but generally not in the commercial realm.. Quote We are not all happy with a PA system that plays loud and goes real low ( PLEASE do not infer that I am suggesting that you are---- that is not my intent behind these words at all --------I don't know your preferences from a bar of soap but your post above suggests an inkling----- ) but I do find your comments as i quoted above quite insulting and disrespectful of those that are chasing the goal of reproduction of natural acoustic sound. ,from my experience a 15in high quality PA driver will sound more 'real' and life like regardless of program material to than a 6.5in 'hifi' driver from Scanspeak or Seas etc... Edited March 11, 2018 by murrmax 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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