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Tasso

HDR 10+ - Best HDR for projectors?

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I'm in the process of determining  which 4K UHD player I will be getting and Panasonic's new DP-UB820  player with their HDR 10+ ,  sophisticated HDR re-mapping and HCX picture processor looks  pretty good I must say.   Of particular interest for a projector user is its ability to take HDR material  and re-map it to the level of nits that will suit your projector.    It will also be interesting to see how Oppo's own tone mapping  compares to Panasonic's   although  it doesn't look like Oppo  has  HDR 10+ certification yet.      No word yet on release date for the new player but most likely in the northern spring.

 

 

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as the guy states one of the things i think are a bit of an unknown is just how this player based tone mapping will interact with the tone mapping already in all devices ?

 

otherwise a case of tone mapping on top of tone mapping ! which can result in unpredictable end result. ! 

 

ps re oppo they declared when asked that they were holding back on hdr10+ to see if gets some widespread support ... ie before they waste their time. so time will tell i guess ...

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is its ability to take HDR material  and re-map it to the level of nits that will suit your projector.

May be handy for those very early displays that don't have the nit levels available now ; otherwise glad were finally able to match dv for scene by scene metadata :) Just need some discs..

The nice thing is the 12bit upscaling in the panas that perfectly matches the 12bit processing throughput in the latest 7000+ models :cool:

 

Oppo will take their time if history is any guide Al. A bit like pana not having dv out of the box  ; dolby makes certification not so easy..

Noticed this comment at avs btw which makes sense :aww: {It was announced today that all the 2017 Samsung UHD players will be getting a firmware update for HDR10+.] Rather have the pana but - either of the hcx models..

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On 2/4/2018 at 12:09 PM, :) al said:

as the guy states one of the things i think are a bit of an unknown is just how this player based tone mapping will interact with the tone mapping already in all devices ?

 

otherwise a case of tone mapping on top of tone mapping ! which can result in unpredictable end result. ! 

 

ps re oppo they declared when asked that they were holding back on hdr10+ to see if gets some widespread support ... ie before they waste their time. so time will tell i guess ...

 

The new HDR10+ standard seems to be a brought about by a collaboration between Panasonic and Samsung and have set up an accreditation process.  If the standard is widely adopted by display manufacturers , I would think there should be compatibility and avoid layers of tone mapping.   There is no way the consortium would allow Oppo to have HDR10+ compatibility before  Panasonic and Samsung release their own players (this is also a clever commercial play)  and to get it later they will need to be accredited .   Oppo might just choose to adopt the the identical process without calling it HDR10+.

With such influential heavyweights like Panasonic and Samsung  creating a solution for a clear problem with many HDR implementations,  you can bet it will be very well thought out and they will get some uptake - providing they don't charge too much for licence fees.

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5 hours ago, cwt said:

May be handy for those very early displays that don't have the nit levels available now

 

Almost no current domestic projector displays can give full justice to  HDR   - unless you go for Sony or JVC laser and $$$.   

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12 hours ago, Tasso said:

 

Almost no current domestic projector displays can give full justice to  HDR   - unless you go for Sony or JVC laser and $$$.   

Yes Tasso ; was off on a tangent; why I  said displays as distinct from projectors ; the nit levels of early oleds were not to the level of current ones let alone led :) That said some projectors with high lumens and wider contrast do better with HDR than other lamp based ones ie JVC :ahappy:

 

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Projectors in general can't really offer all the benefits of HDR... HDR needs a combination of peak luminance and black level that projectors struggle with.

 

JSmith :ninja:

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4 minutes ago, JSmith said:

Projectors in general can't really offer all the benefits of HDR... HDR needs a combination of peak luminance and black level that projectors struggle with.

 

JSmith :ninja:

Yes j ; As said JVC's with their wider contrast - deeper black levels - and high lumens are the go to projectors for HDR :)

You see comments like this in reviews 

Quote

my tests showed contrast that competes with a Pioneer PRO-111FD plasma, the panel I still watch in my living room. Now that is some serious contrast!

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/video-display/projectors/jvc-dla-rs640-ultra-hd-projector-review/

Its all relative ; obviously a panel has nit level etc advantages as you say . 

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4 hours ago, Tweaky said:

LG will NOT support HDR-10+......Dumb I know.

 

They are saying that their OWN, internal TV processing will equate to HDR-10+..... I'm calling BS!!

Yeah ;they all love their own proprietary stuff ; never agreeing to a standard that benefits the consumer :angry:

 

Quote

Generic HDR 10 Pro and HLG Pro are rendered with LG's proprietary algorithm.All types of content are displayed with striking brightness by applying *dynamic tone mapping on a frame by frame basis.

HDR 10 Pro and HLG Pro is LG’s own proprietary HDR solution which process HDR signal dynamically frame by frame using enhanced dynamic tone mapping.

 

Shows that they slap their generic solution on 2 different types of HDR ; HDR10 and HLG . HLG is far removed from a discs metadata ;nuff said ;)

 

 

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UB820 vs UV900

adb348e63c78676ce1c0419deae53f25.jpg
Almost the same dimensions.

e16f03b8a611a92022c416db13342a43.jpg

Rear missing dedicated stereo out and coax out.

New firmware is out

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2 hours ago, DoggieHowser said:

UB820 vs UV900


Almost the same dimensions.



Rear missing dedicated stereo out and coax out.

New firmware is out

 

I'd be interested in your observations 

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Not sure if I should be using this thread but it was the only place I saw reference to the Panasonic UB820... so here goes.

 

The first night I hooked the 820 to the Sony 760ES projector and compared it to the Oppo 203 in that system.

 

I just watched a few critical scenes from Black Panther UHD and there seems less of that black crush. The video settings allow you to set the display to a low luminance TV or projector and that seems to be the reason for the difference. Very noticeable in the Oakland scene when they are in the apartment. The basketball court scene was also better. The forest/Nigeria scene was still a little washed out - just a little less so.

 

Picture appears sharper too. And there was a bit more pop in the red dress in the casino. 

 

Second night I hooked it to the Sony ZD9 TV and set it to high luminance TV and enabled Dolby Vision. The picture also seems noticeably better in those dark scenes. I really hate Dolby Vision titles because it isn't supported on projectors yet. Saw some settings for remapping HDR10+ to HDR10 on the Panasonic 820. Wonder if it will be better than watching Dolby Vision titles on non DV displays.

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, DoggieHowser said:

Second night I hooked it to the Sony ZD9 TV and set it to high luminance TV and enabled Dolby Vision. The picture also seems noticeably better in those dark scenes. I really hate Dolby Vision titles because it isn't supported on projectors yet. Saw some settings for remapping HDR10+ to HDR10 on the Panasonic 820. Wonder if it will be better than watching Dolby Vision titles on non DV displays.

Good to see they were quick with the DV firmware DG . If I didn't have a ubd900 and a vertex waiting to be programmed the new hx processor seems a nice step up . And tone mapping in the player is certainly very handy for low nit displays :) 

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Tonight I decided to take the Oppo 203 out of the projector set up and replaced it with the 820.

And I used this setting from a user on AVS.

“Here are my settings that I like to use:

UB820: SDR2020, HDR optimizer on, slider to +2

885: Laser at 80, D65, Gamma 2.4, BT2020, tune brighness and contrast with masciola disc (For me with masciola i get brightness on 50, contrast on max)

Youll get nice bright images. The HDR optimizer on in the SDR2020 setting will tone map according to each disc metadata. I think it works great. Much better details in dark scenes, and no clipping in the extra bright scenes (I can finally see the minister of magics face in harry potter goblet of fire quidditch scene). I just wish it had an HDMI input like oppo.”

DAMN. After marveling at how good Black Panther looked on the ZD9 with Dolby Vision I had despaired at getting this title to work with projectors.

But with this new setting the terribly washed out scenes with the 760ES previously now look actually watchable.

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DAMN. After marveling at how good Black Panther looked on the ZD9 with Dolby Vision I had despaired at getting this title to work with projectors.

But with this new setting the terribly washed out scenes with the 760ES previously now look actually watchable.


I’m currently using an Xbox One X for UHD disc viewing. The tone mapping on the Panasonic is of interest as I’ve found I currently need to have several different user presets on the projector depending on which disc is playing.

I’m interested in getting the new UB820 but given my JVC X5900 projector doesn’t support Dolby Vision is their any advantage to purchase this model over the UB420? Dolby Vision support appears the be the only difference between the two models. It’ll only be used exclusively with the projector.

Your thoughts appreciated.

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I’ve never tried the UB420 so I can’t be sure. But the paper specs seem to suggest only DV is the difference.

What’s the price delta?

The 820 is under $600. Feels like a bargain.

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5 hours ago, Hazel30 said:

is their any advantage to purchase this model over the UB420? Dolby Vision support appears the be the only difference between the two models. It’ll only be used exclusively with the projector.

If you don't need DV Hazel the UB420 is a bargain . The 820 you pay for its DAC and analog stages and its not a universal .. The 420 is a true transport ; no DAC'S and no analog outputs at all :)

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