Primaluna Dialogue Premium Integrated Amplifier and KT150 tubes

[TerryO]

1 hour ago, georgehifi said:

Wow! if that old chestnut interests you so much, yes I have heard it on a pair of Wilson Sophia 3's  (Wilsons easiest to drive speaker), an it sounded like a tube amp that wasn't in control.

 

 

 

And BTW how can anyone dismiss EE measurements and graphs, when all equipment is designed and built around them. If it wasn't you would have to call it voodoo/snake oil? take your pick. 

 

Cheers George

 

 

 

Come on George you wouldn’t be trying to pull our legs now would you? 

 

So, let me get this right, In the last twelve months since you last said you had not heard a PL amp and didn’t need too to know they were wrong you managed to hear one with exactly the same pretty much uncommon speakers that Sterophile did their testing on, is that correct?  Bit of a coincidence there but what the heck.

 

Was it a SNA members gear in Sydney where you are? If it was maybe  you would like to invite them to offer an opinion? 

 

cheers Terry

 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by TerryO

[georgehifi]

Really???

[betty boop]

31 minutes ago, TerryO said:

Was it a SNA members gear in Sydney where you are? If it was maybe  you would like to invite them to offer an opinion? 

 

Yes I’d like more data points especially once George is not forth coming

[rantan]

What more data does anybody need here. The tests look very obvious to me and I have no skin in this particular game.

 

Subjective opinions are of course,  entirely, but not solely, valid and should be used in harmony with measured results.

 

Subjective opinions are also universal, everybody has one, so why are defenders of PL feeling put upon?

If you like them, you should also feel sufficiently ( and rightly ) confident of your opinion in your circumstances. Perhaps we all need to chill for a while. It's not like anyone is making this personal.

This isn't life and death guys.

[georgehifi]

Quote

 The tests look very obvious to me and I have no skin in this particular game. 

Sanity does prevail. 

 

Can't see the forest for the trees guys.  And I did say Bye 

 

To leave you with another quote from Stereophiles John Atkinson on the PL's measurements, hope you understand what he saying to you.

Quote

"With these high output impedances, the DiaLogue Premium's frequency response will be altered to a significant extent by the Ohm's law interaction between these impedances and the manner in which the loudspeaker's impedance changes with frequency."

 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by georgehifi

[betty boop]

4 minutes ago, rantan said:

What more data does anybody need here. The tests look very obvious to me and I have no skin in this particular game.

 

Subjective opinions are of course,  entirely, but not solely, valid and should be used in harmony with measured results.

No skin in game here, but above is what I see as the problem, the test is the test, and the review with its own subject opinion is just that. The data points from owners here don’t seem to concur ? There is George’s throw away comment valve amp out of control. if there’s someone else can add more to fill in gaps it’s good ...difference of opinion is good... where adds value. At present we are getting look at this graph ... read the review. Um yeah we done that. Can point to other graphs and reviews too  I’ll certainly get around to listening too... but I’d someone wants to genuinely add value with shared experience even if difference of opinion... I wouldn’t mind hearing it :)... I’d welcome it

[rantan]

I know and accept what you are saying Al, but you would be well aware that once people become owners of various gear they quite understandably have a soft spot for it and will sometimes not seem entirely objective.

 

I personally have attachments to several brands and models of equipment that may not always test well and may come in for some (legitimate) criticism.

When I read these ,I don't feel personally offended, nor do I feel the need to defend the brand.

 

I may disagree and still love the item/s in question, but I realise the contrary view to my own isn't personal and I just move on, knowing what suits my tastes and purposes. Audio gear is inanimate and cannot be offended and people should know that  and also know that the criticism isn't directed at the owner personally.

[TerryO]

11 hours ago, georgehifi said:

Really???

Yes really and you know it, as does just about everyone else who has taken the time to read all of this thread.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by TerryO

[hazyj]

9 hours ago, rantan said:

What more data does anybody need here. The tests look very obvious to me and I have no skin in this particular game.

 

Subjective opinions are of course,  entirely, but not solely, valid and should be used in harmony with measured results.

 

Subjective opinions are also universal, everybody has one, so why are defenders of PL feeling put upon?

If you like them, you should also feel sufficiently ( and rightly ) confident of your opinion in your circumstances. Perhaps we all need to chill for a while. It's not like anyone is making this personal.

This isn't life and death guys.

rantan. i think we have (at least) 2 separate conversations going. The "original" conversation was related to George's claim that PL "airyness" and perhaps even "harshness" might be due to an extremely small (and therefore inaudible IMO) extension above 10kHz. I strongly questioned that claim and provided some logic behind it.

 

Instead of responding to my assertion, George decided to change the subject entirely and begin a new discussion around how PL can be poorly matched with some speakers due to its high output impedance, especially if the wrong tap is being used. But this is just tube-amp-ownership 101 ... if you make a decision to go the tube route, know what you're getting into. ALL primaluna amp owners know (or should know) that you can't expect it to "flatly" drive a great many speakers. Same with ARC owners. McIntosh owners. Cary. Quicksilver. VAC. But that was never what this post was about until George ignored my contention and went with something else off topic.

[hazyj]

12 hours ago, betty boop said:

 

ps incase wondering audio research VSi60 measures such for 4 ohm and 8 ohm... from same stereophile source

 

Fig.1 Audio Research VSi60, 8 ohm tap, frequency response at 2.83V into: simulated loudspeaker load (gray), 16 ohms (green), 8 ohms (blue), 4 ohms (red), 2 ohms (magenta), volume control maximum. (0.25dB/vertical div.)
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-vsi60-integrated-amplifier-measurements#cLbpte1JGQEcuAGb.99

 

Fig.2 Audio Research VSi60, 4 ohm tap, frequency response at 2.83V into: simulated loudspeaker load (gray), 16 ohms (green), 8 ohms (blue), 4 ohms (red), 2 ohms (magenta), volume control maximum. (0.25dB/vertical div.)
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-research-vsi60-integrated-amplifier-measurements#cLbpte1JGQEcuAGb.99

 

I wont comment on how sounds as have not had the luxury of experiencing one to date... though that might change  

many thanks to boop for the post above. you beat me to it!

 

what does it mean though? It means 1) different tube amps act (and very likely sound) different! 2) the ARC will provide a flatter response than the PL for lower impedance loads assuming the correct tap is used.

 

But it's still not flat into that load! Did anyone here at SNA buy their tube amp because "flat response" is what they were going for? If so you better have speakers rated at 16 ohms from 60hz - 15kHz and running off the 4 ohm tap and you'll want to use tubes that don't sound very tubey. NO El34s for you!!

 

 

 

 

 

[hazyj]

I've done some digging and see that George may be providing us the wrong charts.  Whatever he's doing and whatever his intent, these Stereophile measurements should set many PL Dialogue Premium owners at ease if you were worried about your speakers not being matched correctly.

 

Seems like PL is doing something right after all;-)

 

Here's the article:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-dialogue-premium-hp-integrated-amplifier

 

And here's the appropriate graph for the discussion that George started:

 

image: https://www.stereophile.com/images/1214PLDPIfig01.jpg

 

Fig.1 PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP, 4 ohm tap, triode mode, frequency response with volume control at its maximum at 2.83V into: simulated loudspeaker load (gray), 8 ohms (left channel blue, right red), 4 ohms (left cyan, right magenta), 2 ohms (green) (1dB/vertical div.).

 

 

[TerryO]

7 hours ago, hazyj said:

I've done some digging and see that George may be providing us the wrong charts.  Whatever he's doing and whatever his intent, these Stereophile measurements should set many PL Dialogue Premium owners at ease if you were worried about your speakers not being matched correctly.

 

Seems like PL is doing something right after all;-)

 

Here's the article:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-dialogue-premium-hp-integrated-amplifier

 

And here's the appropriate graph for the discussion that George started:

 

image: https://www.stereophile.com/images/1214PLDPIfig01.jpg

 

Fig.1 PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP, 4 ohm tap, triode mode, frequency response with volume control at its maximum at 2.83V into: simulated loudspeaker load (gray), 8 ohms (left channel blue, right red), 4 ohms (left cyan, right magenta), 2 ohms (green) (1dB/vertical div.).

 

 

 

Really! ... so George is it correct that you have been using a graph from a different model amplifier as the basis of your argument in this discussion?

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by TerryO

[kelossus]

Just did a little research.

 

The graph George is referring to was from the review of the Primaluna Dialogue Premium running KT120's, not  the HP version. When they reviewed the Dialogue Premium HP they ran it with EL34's.

 

 

[kelossus]

Would be interesting to see if the measurements changed if the HP was strapped with KT120/KT150's.

[TerryO]

8 minutes ago, kelossus said:

Would be interesting to see if the measurements changed if the HP was strapped with KT120/KT150's.

Thanks for finding out that George was using the wrong graph from a different amp Kelossus.

I’ll answer your question on George behalf, he has previously said different tubes will make no difference to the problems he associates with PL amps from his reading of what now turns out to be the incorrect graph.

Edited April 20, 2019 by TerryO

[hazyj]

20 minutes ago, kelossus said:

Just did a little research.

 

The graph George is referring to was from the review of the Primaluna Dialogue Premium running KT120's, not  the HP version. When they reviewed the Dialogue Premium HP they ran it with EL34's.

 

 

not true kelossus.. the caption from his charts indicates "Prologue" and is much worse than what you're referring to which is this below:

 

image: https://www.stereophile.com/images/214PLDPfig02.jpg

 

Fig.2 PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium, KT120s, 4 ohm tap, Triode mode, frequency response at 2.83V into: simulated loudspeaker load (gray), 8 ohms (left channel blue, right red), 4 ohms (left cyan, right magenta), 2 ohms (green) (1dB/vertical div.).

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-dialogue-premium-power-amplifier-measurements#O5RyYjwFSiKv08HU.99

[hazyj]

22 hours ago, georgehifi said:

Here it is for you to read and see. As you can see both act as a tone control far from flat.

Why is it some just can't handle the truth, when it's in front of them??

  

1st the 8ohm tap



 

And now the 4ohm tap.

I've re-posted those incorrect charts from George above.

[kelossus]

Yep it would seem you are correct. What threw me off is George was quoting John Atkinson's comments from the Measurements section the Dialogue Premium Review.

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2019 by kelossus

[Guest Muon N']

Does anyone run KT150's triode strapped? Can they work as pseudo triodes?

Edit: just found my answer by looking at the data sheet.

 

I'm not all that taken with the KT120, but haven't hear the 150 and would be interested in how they sound when triode strapped.

 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Muon N'

[Ittaku]

47 minutes ago, Muon N' said:

Does anyone run KT150's triode strapped? Can they work as pseudo triodes?

Quite a few amps now offer triode mode as well as ultralinear mode with KT150s now, even the latest ARC amp offers it.

[TerryO]

While the old Prologue models were very good amps in their price range in their time they are now basically at least three model upgrades old and dramatically different to the new Dialogue HP models.

Plus they haven’t been made for a quite a while, to use those old entry level amps measurements when making less than flattering statements as actual gospel on the much later  and much higher specification models is at the very least misleading and I’m being kind calling it that.

 

So George those phantom Sophia 3’s and that mystery PL amp that you were listening to for the first time that, what was it you said again? “a tube amp that sounded out of control” was it a ten year old entry level Prologue, a Dialogue, or a Dialogue Premium HP? 

Edited April 20, 2019 by TerryO

[Gijo1977]

Sorry to drop into the topic.....

I am really interested in the possibility of a tube integrated to run some Monitor Audio GS60 floor standers.

Would the HP be overkill? Or would the non-HP be a little under powered? I would also be interested in any thoughts about how the PL HP compares to Octave and Icon Audio amps?

Thanks for any help, these PL HP amps seem to get great reviews :-) and I have been trawling a number of other posts to help me work out some potential options

Thanks for any thoughts

Dan

[hazyj]

Hi Dan. So many variables are involved that it's impossible for anyone to make the right decision for you. For instance, some of us buy equipment knowing that it will not only be a good match for our current equipment, but will pair well with whatever we buy in the future. As an example, I purchased an HP amp (not integrated) because it's so versatile that I think I'll hold onto it forever. While I only need one now and rarely need more than 30W a side with El34s, I will eventually buy another and run kt150s in mono config which I believe will provide over 185W per channel. I may need all of that depending what future speakers I'll own.

 

So, maybe that should be the first question you ask yourself: "am I buying something I plan to be happy with for decades or just for now?" Maybe the second question should be "how much effort and time am I willing to put into this purchase in particular and my audio system in general?"

 

If you want to be happiest with your decision, you'll put some good time into listening sessions. For instance, if you're certain the Monitor Audios are the right speakers for you, find out who else owns those and go listen to their system.

[Gijo1977]

Thanks for the feedback. I am in a bit of the process of changing the parts of the system in order to get the right sound for me...

The speakers have performed well and I like their sound.... but I am not sure they are getting their best chance to shine. I have an ME Pre working with an SGR Power amp, and feel like it’s not quite right as a package? I think Tubes are in my future, and thought the PL HP integrated would bring the box count down, listening enjoyment and sound quality up?

I was also considering just changing the ME Pre for a tube option to see how that goes.... but the box count doesn’t change, and the speakers are not getting a change in Watts or Current to see what happens.

I would also love to find some other owners of the Monitor Audio GS60 though there doesn’t seem to be too much written about them in comparison to other speakers so my quest will continue I guess.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Gijo1977
spelling

[Thelastjedi]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion but I am borrowing a primaluna prologue for the week and have them paired up with the focal aria 936. Does anyone know if I should use the 8ohm or 4ohm tap? The speakers are a 8ohm speaker but do dip down to about 2.8ohms i think. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks guys