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wooferocau

Oppo 203 HDR Tone Mapping.

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Keen to hear your thoughts. 

I spent about 5 hrs last night doing some testing to compare against my Arve curves in the X7000.

Unfortunately I'm finding that this Oppo Tone Mapping feature is certainly not "set and forget ".

For example, my reference "bright" movie " The Shallows". I needed to push the luminance slider out to 1000 in Mode 2 to match my custom Arve curve.

Then with "The Revenant" it took another hour testing until I thought mode 4 with luminance slider on 700 was about as good as I could get it. 

I tried " Passengers " and " Dunkirk " and each movie needed a different setting for best performance. 

I read reports where people are saying they are really happy with luminance slider on 300, but that leads to pretty bad clipped highlights on my set up.

This firmware update will be a complete game changer for those JVC projector owners that have yet to create their own Arve curves.

More testing required.🤔

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As some may remember ..i have had the Oppo 203 from its first release, i was NEVER happy with its performance and much preferred to use the UB900.

 

Well that  has changed.. :)  Oppo have done a splendid job with their HDR Tone Mapping .....it does have a couple of little quirks, but overall its excellent.

 

I am currently using Mode 3 with Target Luminance of 500 Gamma 2.4 . This produces results that exceed ( quite substantially  )  anything i have used with my Z1/RS4500 so far.  The UHD 4K images on my Z1/RS4500 are truly "Breathtaking"  really impressed with what Oppo has done.

 

Oppo must have "Tweaked"  their UHD 4K  processing as the UB900 (for me)  has always produced a more detailed/sharp image......the Oppo IMO  now exceeds the UB900 in this aspect..

 

For anyone still trying to use the Horrendous Disaster that is GAMMA D on the  JVC DLA **00 series, do yourself a favour and try these tome maps on the 203...you will be shocked!

 

For others using custom curves, it will be interesting to hear your comparisons..

 

Will update some more latter..

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1 hour ago, wooferocau said:

Oppo must have "Tweaked"  their UHD 4K  processing as the UB900 (for me)  has always produced a more detailed/sharp image......the Oppo IMO  now exceeds the UB900 in this aspect..

 

For anyone still trying to use the Horrendous Disaster that is GAMMA D on the  JVC DLA **00 series, do yourself a favour and try these tome maps on the 203...you will be shocked!

 

For others using custom curves, it will be interesting to hear your comparisons..

Well that's done it for the well laid plans ; Ive had a vertex sitting waiting on my calibrator to sort out its gamma curve for the 7000e and now the oppo looks good again :) This is compounded by a new second display sony 9300 that is awaiting a dolby vision upgrade for ; I dunno; a bdp203s dv :huh: Then theres the coming dv Panasonic :emot-bang::blush:

Yes for sure; comparisons are certainly encouraged ..

 

One question ; is 1 set mode and target luminance on the oppo best or a variance considering the 2 different nit levels the discs are mastered at ? Or is it easy to  switch via the remote without  drilling into the menu's ?

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Hi Colin, did you not see post #2?  😋

No, seriously ymmv but i had 4 different settings preferences across 4 movies.

Also, the growing consensus is that the mastering metadata is a bit of a red herring.

Sure movies are listed as being mastered to 1000nits or 4000nits,but rarely reflects the real MaxCLL.

Take Blade Runner 2049 for example.  It was mastered at 10000nits!!!!, but has a MaxCLL of just 181.

@Javs has a very interesting thread over on AVS, but has stated he's not interested in buying an Oppo, so may not be able to discuss the new beta.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2950608-hdr-uhd-bluray-waveform-analysis.html

 

Edited by IMDave

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17 minutes ago, IMDave said:

Hi Colin, did you not see post #2?  😋

No, seriously ymmv but i had 4 different settings preferences across 4 movies.

Also, the growing consensus is that the mastering metadata is a bit of a red herring.

Sure movies are listed as being mastered to 1000nits or 4000nits,but rarely reflects the real MaxCLL.

Take Blade Runner 2049 for example.  It was mastered at 10000nits!!!!, but has a MaxCLL of just 181.

@Javs has a very interesting thread over on AVS, but has stated he's not interested in buying an Oppo, so may not be able to discuss the new beta.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2950608-hdr-uhd-bluray-waveform-analysis.html

 

Thanks Dave ; yes it doesn't take much to throw me :cool: and I see that theres discrepancies in black level nit levels . As javs said in your link ; pick one :)

Quote

and unfortunately we will need either separate user modes for these differing black levels and significantly differing average brightness, or we just choose one or the other and live with it.

Ile stick with the vertex ; I don't really need sacd;dvd-a playback and the new pana has hdr10+ as well - just in case :ohmy:

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When I first read about the Oppo beta I thought it would potentially make my newly acquired Vertex a little redundant because the beta sends SDR and therefore the DI will work in the JVC and the gamma D won't be enabled. 

But the macro features and the OSD are great, and I think I might end up continuing to use the Arve curves in the end anyway.

Be interested to hear what luminance slider settings you end up with. 

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Oppo's new feature looks like it is a response to the  Panasonic /Samsung  HDR initiative that  has been developing for some time.    It will be interesting to compare the Oppo against Panasonic's new DP-UB820 which has the new tone mapping system , Dolby vision and HCX picture processor.   One thing is certain however is that Oppo owners wont have to buy new hardware to use the feature.

 

 

Edited by Tasso

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18 hours ago, IMDave said:

But the macro features and the OSD are great, and I think I might end up continuing to use the Arve curves in the end anyway.

Be interested to hear what luminance slider settings you end up with. 

Those are a moving target on the 900 Dave ; 

 http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/2279898-panasonic-dmp-ub900-thread-121.html#post53335690

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/2279898-panasonic-dmp-ub900-thread-118.html#post53097890

In the throes of getting an electricinema custom 1.2 gain screen for UHD atm if 1 can be sourced and may have a new uhd player by then :) 

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1 hour ago, cwt said:

Those are a moving target on the 900 Dave ; 

 http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/2279898-panasonic-dmp-ub900-thread-121.html#post53335690

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/2279898-panasonic-dmp-ub900-thread-118.html#post53097890

In the throes of getting an electricinema custom 1.2 gain screen for UHD atm if 1 can be sourced and may have a new uhd player by then :) 

Thanks Colin. I know people have been really happy with the ub900.

Personally I know nothing about it because I committed to the Oppo 203 in December 2016 and have put A LOT of time into tweaking UHD/HDR on it.

What is worrying me about the new Oppo beta is that everyone is raving about how much better the image is over HDR , and I'm just not seeing it. 

This either means my custom made Arve curves are bloody fantastic, or I'm doing something wrong with the beta HDR-->SDR beta conversion. 

Also, with the Arve curves there is actual science involved in their creation, whereas to the best of my knowledge with the beta , adjusting the slider is just a "do it by eye" sort of thing. That doesn't sit well with me. 

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@:) al  have you had a chance to check out the beta yet?

I'd be interested in your thoughts too.

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9 minutes ago, IMDave said:

@:) al  have you had a chance to check out the beta yet?

I'd be interested in your thoughts too.

dave to be honest am staying away from beta's after a bad experience once before. but i'll check out once formal.

 

in anticipation, can you tell me what conditions do i need to have the x7000 in to use the oppo's HDR mapping. am i still using same setup i use my uhd present now ? just will tone map down for my projector ie outputting 100 nits and clip for 1000.

 

am concerned about tone mapping on top of tone mapping ! (ie what am doing already)

 

to be perfectly honest have been pleased as punch with what am achieving with UHD now so not bothered much. 

 

 

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Hi @:) al ,

The new Oppo beta adds 4 new modes under a heading called "HDR -off"-----BT2020 SDR.

NB this is not the old "Strip Metadata" function that had inherent limitations. This is a newly developed tone mapping program where the Oppo is performing the HDR to SDR conversion in the player.

Your friend Manni has a good explanation, and I quote ( with a bit of a history lesson for those following along at home :) )

 

Manni01:" It's always been HDR to SDR conversion. Our displays are not HDR displays. The question is where does the conversion happens (player, video processor, display), and what the consequences are.

With gamma D, the conversion took place into the display. It was crap. The dark gamma control either raised the black floor, killing contrast, or crushed black. It was unusable. And to add insult to injury, the DI was disabled with HDR content.
I preferred for a while the HDR to SDR BT2020 in the UB900 using the Integral. The main positives were being able to use the DI and get our black levels back, the main negative was that it was expecting an SDR display and the highlights were limited to about 100nits real peakY, otherwise it wouldn't be correct as reference white would be too high. Until a slider came later, there was also a significant compromise in the highlights that were clipped fairly low. Still I and others recommended it for a long time, because for a while it was better to do the conversion in the player, as long as it was the UB900 (the Oppo conversion has been buggy for a long time and crushed blacks).
Then I found a way to use Calman to calibrate to HDR10 manually, at about the time Chad B started to experiment as well. We actually did share tricks and opinions at the very beginning of this. This allowed to get better than Gamma D calibration, with peakY as high as the display was capable to, and no raised black floor or crushed black. This was the beginning of custom curves, which have to be designed for each set-up ideally according to vareious factors and taste. I shared a few of them to show people that we could get better than gamma D, but the further you were away from the way from the target of the curve (or from a complete bat cave), the worse the results. So that's what I recommended, to go back to doing the conversion in the display.
Then Arve dropped the A bomb, which transformed a 30mn process (time needed to create a custom curve manually) into a one minute process, allowing to experiment with design, roll off and create even better custom curves. I immediately embraced the process, as the result was better than what I could get with my manual curves, and I recommended that people use the tool to create their own custom curve, or ask someone competent to use it to design one for their set-up and their taste. I created and shared a first Dolby Cinema Emulation curve, so that people could target one single peakY (107 nits) and know they were getting a fairly accurate conversion for that peakY.
I then worked with HD Fury to implement a feature in the Linker (then the Vertex) to allow us to get DI back with HDR content.
Then Lumagen implemented the Intensity Mapping LUT into the Radiance Pro, Oppo made some progress and someone I entirely trust (@KrisDeering;), who I knew loved custom curves because we discussed the process extensively when I started using them and with whom I have shared privately lots of information reported that he was getting better results in a specific area (low light color saturation) with the Radiance Pro intensity mapping LUT and the new beta f/w in the Oppo (not yet public). I investigated using MadVR and found that he was entirely correct. The time had come - again - to let the source or the video processor do the conversion, simply because it was better there. The big difference from the SDR BT2020 we could get from the UB900 is that these solution use the full brightness available (up to 200nits and more if your display can achieve that) and are far more accurate, beyond the gain in low light saturation. So as I said, it's not "going back to SSDR BT2020", it's going back to doing the SDR BT2020 conversion in the source (MadVR, Oppo) or the VP (Radiance Pro) to get better results with HDR content than when doing the conversion in the display, even with a with a custom curve.
There might be a point in the future where the conversion is better done in the display again, and if that's the case I'll be happy to recommend doing that.
I'm not attached to the present way to do things, whether I came up with it or not. When Arve dropped the A bomb, I was the first to experiment with his tool and recommend it. When Kris dropped the K bomb, I was the first to experiment (with MadVR as I don't have access to a Radiance Pro or an Oppo yet) and recommend a new way. Simply because I'm after the best possible quality and accurate representation. Not after "being right". No one is "right" for very long in this field. It keeps changing at light speed, and will probably keep changing for a couple of years.
So if you're after best PQ and most accurate representation, be open to change and ready to change your ways "smile.gif

and also,

"just to clarify, there is no HDR flag. The content is still HDR, but none of the HDR metadata is sent to the projector to prevent it from switching to its HDR mode/gamma automatically. The only thing that tells the display that it's dealing with HDR content is the HDR metadata. If you don't sent it, the display thinks it's displaying SDR even if exactly the same content is sent.

I know you know the rest, but I'm going to try to explain for others.

What people don't understand is that when we say HDR metadata, it doesn't mean HDR content, or an HDR layer on top of an SDR layer. On UHD Bluray, there is no SDR layer. There is an HDR10 mandatory layer, and optionally a DV layer or soon an HDR10+ layer (let's ignore that for now). So you have an HDR10 mandatory layer, and HDR metadata that describes the way this HDR10 layer was created, and (theoretically) which kind of data it contains. It's metadata, not data. If you don't send the HDR metadata, you are still sending the full HDR10 layer, and it's that HDR layer that is displayed, either using a custom curve or gamma D (in our projectors). If you use an SDR calibration to display it, it won't be displayed properly, which proves that it's still HDR content.

When doing and HDR to SDR conversion, whether in the source or in the display, we are changing the location of the conversion, but it's not necessarily the same kind of conversion:

- When we use the UB900 HDR to SDR BT2020 conversion, the source is assuming an SDR display (i.e. a non-HDR-capable display), so it's tone mapping to about 100nits peakY. It is therefore NOT using all the potential brightness in the PJ, for those who can reach significantly above that. This means that although it's doing a decent job, it's NOT using the whole dynamic range of the display (the highlights are far more compressed). The advantage is better black levels and better native contrast (if we close the iris to get 100nits peakY), but the downside is less dynamic range. You are NOT watching HDR with this conversion, and it is INFERIOR to what a well-designed custom curve can provide, unless your display has significantly less than 100nits peak brightness.
- When we use MadVR or the Oppo new f/w or the Radiance Pro to do the HDR to SDR conversion, we are telling the source how bright the display can be, and the source is expecting the content to be displayed on an HDR-capable display, i.e. a display able to reach far more than 100nits (if we're not talking about projectors). So in that case, the HDR to SDR conversion, despite the fact that it's done in the source, is using the same range (whole native brightness) the display is capable of, which means that it's still displaying HDR content and it will look just as HDR (if well done) as it would if the display was in HDR mode. The downside is that if we use the iris fully open, the black floor goes up (and the native contrast goes down). But this is not an issue if you're willing to use the DI, as you then get a far better overall contrast, even if the black floor is slightly raised.

In both these cases, because the source is sending the content using a power gamma and not an ST2084 gamma, we have to use an SDR calibration, but the content displayed is still HDR!

The HUGE advantage for projectors of doing the HDR to SDR conversion in the source when the source is aware that the display is HDR capable, is that we can calibrate accurately and automatically to a known standard, in that case SDR BT2020 power gamma 2.4. This is NOT possible to do at this stage with HDR, simply because there is no HDR standard for projectors (bar ST2390 which isn't supported by all software yet).

So calibrating the display to SDR BT-2020 and asking the source to do the conversion while being aware that it can send "SDR" content that goes far above 100nits (i.e. HDR content) is what makes a whole difference. When the source is able to adapt the ST2390 curve to the content dynamically, the results are even better.

In other words, when we say "HDR", we mean content with a high dynamic range, i.e. using (usually) more than 0-100nits encoded with an ST-2084 gamma.

But when we say "SDR", we can mean two things: 1) legacy content encoded with a standard dynamic range and a power gamma or BT1886 gamma, or 2) HDR content converted to a power gamma 2.4, but still covering a high dynamic range (and ideally a WCG, hence BT2020).

It's important to make this distinction, otherwise it's not possible to understand the difference between the HDR to SDR conversion of the UB900 (type 1) and the HDR to SDR conversion from MadVR, new Oppo f/w or Radiance Pro (type 2).

I know it's enough to do most people's head in, but unfortunately that's what we have to deal with in these early days of HDR implementation. smile.gif"

 

So in a nutshell, what you are doing with the Oppo beta is selecting a BT2020 ( WCG ) gamma conversion of HDR ( 0.000 - 4000nits ) to fit into a SDR range ( YMMV but with your screen size and throw probably around  0.000 - 140nits ).

You don't need a Linker or Vertex to get the DI back, and Gamma D is dead and buried.

I appreciate your apprehension about trialing the beta, but would strongly recommend all projector owners with an Oppo to give it a go once it becomes an official release. It's free, and if Kris Deering says it's almost as good as his $5k Radiance Pro, what is there to lose? :lol:

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2 hours ago, IMDave said:

So in a nutshell, what you are doing with the Oppo beta is selecting a BT2020 ( WCG ) gamma conversion of HDR ( 0.000 - 4000nits ) to fit into a SDR range ( YMMV but with your screen size and throw probably around  0.000 - 140nits ).

You don't need a Linker or Vertex to get the DI back, and Gamma D is dead and buried.

I appreciate your apprehension about trialing the beta, but would strongly recommend all projector owners with an Oppo to give it a go once it becomes an official release. It's free, and if Kris Deering says it's almost as good as his $5k Radiance Pro, what is there to lose? :lol:

thanks for the nutshell dave, as in typically manni fashion theres a lot there he has posted but nothing specific he helps with. its a kind of heres a nibble you figure out the rest because I have :D 

 

so not sure if can help but any thoughts ? what preset do we put our x7000 into.

 

do I leave it in my uhd preset. or simply r709 calibrated pre set ?. 

 

or am wondering if I need to create a new preset, leave in bt2020 but without gamma D ? would i re calibrate re do the clipping point fro contrast and brightness or leave as is. a bit confused to be honest ! 

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Yeah he does put a lot into a post.lol.

Essentially, you need to create another Picture profile ( ie already have one for Rec709 and 4kUHD) in the X7000. Maybe call it SDR-BT2020.

You select the same BT2020 colour profile that was calibrated using Autocal,and is in use for 4kUHD.

You need to select custom gamma #1--->  2.4.

Setting Brightness and contrast is a minefield that I haven't figured out yet. I tried using the R.Masciola files but couldn't really get them to work.

Ive left them at 0/0 for the moment.

In the Oppo, with the new firmware you go into the HDR adjustment and select HDR off (BT2020).

Now comes the hardest part . Setting the Target Luminance. 

Ive spent an hour on every movie ive tested, flicking back and forward and the TL has been different for every one.

My problem with being a PITA perfectionist is that I want it all.lol.

Take "Dunkirk" for example. The very opening scene with the soldiers walking down the street. 

With my Arve curve gamma I can see the texture in the clouds on the horizon,  but with the beta the clouds are clipped with the same scene relative brightness level.

BUT, the leaflets that are falling from the sky have a much more saturated red colour to them with the beta, that I can't recreate with the Arve gamma.Same with the garden hose that the soldier attempts to drink from.Much stronger more vibrant red. And remember they are using the same BT2020 colour profile in the PJ so, it's all down to the conversion. 

Hopefully,  Oppo will continue to develop this because it's only at the extreme ends of the luminance scale that there are issues. 

 

 

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Oh and I forgot to mention. 

The other advantage of the beta is that in the X7000 SDR-BT2020 picture profile you set the lamp to Low, with the same iris setting as bluray( - 11??) and you get the DI back without the need to purchase a Linker or Vertex. 

For those that haven't ventured down the Arve curve creation path, I'm sure the Oppo update will be a revelation. 

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@:) al

 

Are you still persevering with with Gamma D ? :ohmy:   Gamma D is utter garbage to be honest...

 

If you are, trust me you have NOT seen what your X7000 is capable of with HDR.  Since you have the Oppo  do yourself a favour and try the Tone Mapping....i guarantee you will be impressed.:)

 

 

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Just to reiterate .....Anyone still using the JVC " Gamma D"  with any of the .00 series projectors is seriously hindering their UHD HDR experience ...

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1 hour ago, wooferocau said:

@:) al

 

Are you still persevering with with Gamma D ? :ohmy:   Gamma D is utter garbage to be honest...

 

If you are, trust me you have NOT seen what your X7000 is capable of with HDR.  Since you have the Oppo  do yourself a favour and try the Tone Mapping....i guarantee you will be impressed.:)

 

 

hi woofer as i mentioned i will indeed try it but i wont with a oppo beta firmware release. sorry burnt before. am happy to wait if dont mind :)

 

there are also much unanswered questions in my mind so have no doubt using the oppo to do tone mapping is going to take some understanding still and figuring out in my mind. all in good time...

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On 07/02/2018 at 7:09 PM, wooferocau said:

Just to reiterate .....Anyone still using the JVC " Gamma D"  with any of the .00 series projectors is seriously hindering their UHD HDR experience ...

As a matter of interest, I was toggling backward and forward trying to decide which looked better between my Arve curve and the Oppo beta with this torture test scene from The Revenant ( ~ 20mins in ). Which showed the colour of the boy's shirt better? What colour is the fur on his rug? How deep is the green of the moss on the tree?

When I accidentally stopped on Gamma D, I couldn't even see there was a tree, or a rug or a shirt !!! 

Man it was dark !!!!!

 

[ Edit : I can't see any of that stuff on my computer monitor either, but it is there on the PJ screen. LOL ]

revenent.jpg

Edited by IMDave

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6 hours ago, IMDave said:

As a matter of interest, I was toggling backward and forward trying to decide which looked better between my Arve curve and the Oppo beta with this torture test scene from The Revenant ( ~ 20mins in ). Which showed the colour of the boy's shirt better? What colour is the fur on his rug? How deep is the green of the moss on the tree?

When I accidentally stopped on Gamma D, I couldn't even see there was a tree, or a rug or a shirt !!! 

Man it was dark !!!!!

 

[ Edit : I can't see any of that stuff on my computer monitor either, but it is there on the PJ screen. LOL ]

revenent.jpg

Yes, Gamma D is the biggest major issue with the ..00 series PJ,s with HDR.. 

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I'm very excited about the tone mapping opportunities with the Oppo!

 

I currently have a Sony 385es and it's been hard for me to get too excited about HDR due to the brightness limitations. I otherwise love the projector. I still mostly watch 1080p SDR and it can really look amazing. 

 

So far I really like Mode 2 set to about 200 nits. It really looks great...better IMO than the custom gamma curves I've tried previously...about 95% of the time. 

 

I've only tried a few discs so far (Deadpool and Spider Man Homecoming) but the Achilles's heel of my current settings would be sky highlights. They are very blown out. I can fix this by changing the mode or increasing the nits slider (400-500 seems to do it) but then the rest of the image suffers (I don't have a ton of brightness overhead). The custom gamma curves making the rounds do a much better job of reining this in, but look desaturated compared to the Oppo's tone mapping. 

 

Hopefully the method is tweaked further with future firmware releases. If not it may finally nudge me towards a new screen. A bit more gain and I think it would be near perfect. 

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Try ..Mode 3 ......it is MUCH better at retaining highlights while still giving excellent "punch" to the image overall.  I have found Mode 2 to clip the top end far to much..:)

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Some Pics of the Oppo 203 Tone Mapping ( Mode 3 Target 500Nits) and @Javs V3 ( 1200 Nits) curve used with the UB900 on my Z1/RS4500. smile.gif

Very close.... smile.gif

Oppo-Mode-3-400Nits-#2-web.jpg

Oppo-Mode-3-400Nits-#3-web.jpg

Oppo-Mode-3--400Nits-web.jpg

UB900-Javs-HDR-#2-web.jpg

UB900-Javs-HDR-#3-web.jpg

UB900-Javs-HDR-web.jpg

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A few more examples of the Oppo Tone Mapping vs    UB900 with custom curve for those interested...   :)

Oppo-203-#1.jpg

Oppo-203.jpg

Oppo-203-#3.jpg

Oppo-203-Mode-3-500nit-#2.jpg

Oppo-203-Mode-3-500nit-#4.jpg

UB900-Javs-1200-#1.jpg

UB900-javs-1200-#2.jpg

UB900-Javs-1200-#3.jpg

UB900-Javs-1200-nit-#4.jpg

UB900-javs-1200.jpg

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