Rob181 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: - if they can hear burn-in, proceed to investigate further And what will that achieve exactly... Other than to have 1 less topic to debate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 13, 2018 Volunteer Share Posted February 13, 2018 19 minutes ago, Rob181 said: And what will that achieve exactly... Other than to have 1 less topic to debate... struggling to understand your point ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLXXX Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Rob181 said: And what will that achieve exactly... Other than to have 1 less topic to debate... Well if a difference is heard under formal test conditions between cable A (a relatively unused cable) and cable B (a cable used sufficiently to be considered burned in) the extent of that change will be able to be measured electronically by comparing the following signals: the signal from a test recording entering cable A and cable B, the signal emerging from cable A, the signal emerging from cable B. For some reason, either or both of the cables has substantially altered the amplitude (overall or as a function of frequency), the phase, or the linearity of the test recording signal. I can say that because a signal from an audio recording is a varying voltage, approximating varying air pressure impinging on a microphone, and the ways those voltages can be interfered with is by changing their amplitude, timing, or linearity. Given the belief that burn-in is always or generally for the better then the focus might be expected to be primarily on the brand new cable and why it introduces a noticeable change to the test signal, and measuring the extent of that change. And then tests could be carried out tracking the particular parameter (non-linearity, etc) on other samples of the cable to ascertain how the harming effect typically varied with use of the cable (presumably becoming less over time). And then graphs could be prepared showing the typical changes for the brand of cable as a function of time [perhaps for particular defined extents of regular use, e.g. 1 hour a day with pop music at a peak voltage level of 500mV RMS]. I don't think though, @Rob181, that the above type of investigation would lead to there being one less topic to debate. It would not show that audible cable burn-in occurs generally, or even commonly. The question of whether cable burn-in is "real" would not have been fully answered. The above investigation would show that a particular brand of cable [or at least one sample of that cable] appeared to alter its electrical parameters very substantially with use, so much so that the change produced an audible difference for human hearing. I think it would lead to a frenzy of investigation into this apparent phenomenon, and to a range of new questions to debate! @Rob181, establishing that particular brands of brand new cables imposed an audible harming effect on music signals would be quite something, of benefit to the audiophile community broadly. As matters stand, only a small percentage of audiophiles would bother to try to "burn in" new cables. If it could be proven that certain new cables needed to be burned in, then buyers around the world interested in hi-fi could avoid those cables, or if acquiring them could make sure they were burned in, prior to using them to listen to music. Edit: I will though hark back to my post of a few hours ago. I do not expect a positive DBT result would be achieved. All of the preceding paragraphs in this post are based merely on a hypothetical DBT confirmation of audible cable burn-in. To my mind, it stands to reason that if audible cable burn-in were a "thing", it would have been proven to exist in no later than the 20th century. Edited February 13, 2018 by MLXXX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 hour ago, MLXXX said: To my mind, it stands to reason that if audible cable burn-in were a "thing", it would have been proven to exist in no later than the 20th century. Why...what net benefit does proving/disproving burn in achieve... Outside the the largely OCD audiophile community... Nobody else gives a "rats a***" one way or the other... Would I waste my time/money on any investigation... Not a chance in hell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLXXX Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rob181 said: Why...what net benefit does proving/disproving burn in achieve... Outside the the largely OCD audiophile community... Nobody else gives a "rats a***" one way or the other... Would I waste my time/money on any investigation... Not a chance in hell... I disagree. If there is an audible improvement to be obtained from cable burn-in, that is very important information, of relevance to audiophiles, and even casual listeners to hi-fi. At the moment cable burn-in has the status of a myth for many audiophiles and is not taken seriously by them. If it were proven, then it would be important for all of us (not just the existing group of true believers) to get up to speed on burn-in protocols, and perhaps to avoid cables that needed very long burn-in periods. Edited February 13, 2018 by MLXXX 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 24 minutes ago, Rob181 said: Why...what net benefit does proving/disproving burn in achieve... Outside the the largely OCD audiophile community... Nobody else gives a "rats a***" one way or the other... Would I waste my time/money on any investigation... Not a chance in hell... If the topic means nothing to you then I suggest you stop contributing to this thread. Please note the title "Break/Burn in. Is it Real?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_m_54 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 16 minutes ago, MLXXX said: I disagree. If there is an audible improvement to be obtained from cable burn-in, that is very important information, of relevance to audiophiles, and even casual listeners to hi-fi. At the moment cable burn-in has the status of a myth for many audiophiles and is not taken seriously by them. If it were proven, then it would be important for all of us (not just the existing cohort of true believers) to get up to speed on burn-in protocols, and perhaps to avoid cables that needed very long burn-in periods. Or degradation... possibly even more important information. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 28 minutes ago, scumbag said: If the topic means nothing to you then I suggest you stop contributing to this thread. Meaning something to me is one thing... Spending my time/money to prove/disprove it is quite another... Regardless, I thank you for your wise advice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 15 minutes ago, Rob181 said: Meaning something to me is one thing... Spending my time/money to prove/disprove it is quite another... Regardless, I thank you for your wise advice... I count about 40 posts that you've made on this thread. I can only imagine how many you would have made had the topic meant anything to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eggcup The Daft Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 10 hours ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: I'm still struggling to understand why we are discussing measuring the physical properties of cable (or whatever the item is) for evidence of burn-in, when we haven't yet established objectively that anything audible is actually happening. The logic seems to be: - lots of people in biased, sighted tests claim anecdotally to hear burn in - let's measure the physical properties of the cable to determine what's causing the change in sound The logic should be: - lots of people in biased, sighted tests claim anecdotally to hear burn in - let's run some unbiased, proper DB tests to determine whether people are actually hearing what they claim to hear - if they can't hear burn-in under these conditions, no need to proceed - if they can hear burn-in, proceed to investigate further If the measurements are relatively easy and infallible, then we don't need to run difficult DBTs and then argue over the results as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 13, 2018 Volunteer Share Posted February 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said: If the measurements are relatively easy and infallible, then we don't need to run difficult DBTs and then argue over the results as well. The measurements are indeed easy. Trouble is they show no difference 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said: If the measurements are relatively easy and infallible, then we don't need to run difficult DBTs and then argue over the results as well. A fair & reason assumption... @rawl99's proposed testing should fit that bill nicely... Sadly there will be plenty who will argue over the results...me excluded... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: The measurements are indeed easy. Trouble is they show no difference You know this how... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 13, 2018 Volunteer Share Posted February 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rob181 said: You know this how... Can you show me measurements that display differences in cables caused by burn in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHC Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 11 hours ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: I'm still struggling to understand why we are discussing measuring the physical properties of cable (or whatever the item is) for evidence of burn-in, when we haven't yet established objectively that anything audible is actually happening. The logic seems to be: - lots of people in biased, sighted tests claim anecdotally to hear burn in - let's measure the physical properties of the cable to determine what's causing the change in sound - If measurements can't determine the cause, then let's run some unbiased, proper DB tests to determine whether people are actually hearing what they claim to hear The logic should be: - lots of people in biased, sighted tests claim anecdotally to hear burn in - let's run some unbiased, proper DB tests to determine whether people are actually hearing what they claim to hear - if they can't hear burn-in under these conditions, no need to proceed - if they can hear burn-in, proceed to investigate further I have modified your first logic a little bit. IMO both logic are equally fine and worthy of pursue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 13, 2018 Volunteer Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 minute ago, LHC said: I have modified your first logic a little bit. IMO both logic are equally fine and worthy of pursue. Awesome, thanks. Feel free to go through any other posts I've made and correct them on my behalf 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 51 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: Can you show me measurements that display differences in cables caused by burn in I can show you exactly the same number of peer reviewed tests that you can show me conclusively demonstrating there are no difference caused by burn in..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippy124 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I wonder if there is a parallel debate over on the control systems forums with regard to how the resolving accuracy of a control system improves over the first couple of hundred hours due to cable break in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 13, 2018 Volunteer Share Posted February 13, 2018 35 minutes ago, Rob181 said: I can show you exactly the same number of peer reviewed tests that you can show me conclusively demonstrating there are no difference caused by burn in..... Are you enjoying this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: Are you enjoying this? About as much as you I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 13, 2018 Volunteer Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Rob181 said: About as much as you I guess... I'd like to see peer reviewed evidence that you know how much I'm enjoying this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: I'd like to see peer reviewed evidence that you know how much I'm enjoying this Perhaps a review of Newtons third law of relativity will assist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 13, 2018 Volunteer Share Posted February 13, 2018 13 minutes ago, Rob181 said: Perhaps a review of Newtons third law of relativity will assist... for every action there is an equal and opposite criticism? BTW you need to brush up on your Newtonian laws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: BTW you need to brush up on your Newtonian laws No I don't...my point has been made... I can respond with as many SA one liners as you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 13, 2018 Volunteer Share Posted February 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rob181 said: No I don't...my point has been made... I can respond with as many SA one liners as you... what was his first law of relativity pray tell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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