Defining "Sound Quality"

[allhifi]

Good day Stereo Net:  Happy 2018 ! 

 

I've recently (as in a few months ago) decided upon "streaming" (audio) waters ! 

And what a revelation it turned out to be; amazing world-wide radio stations -and surprisingly really good SQ .

 

The other day I took receipt of a newer, modern DAC -well built, modern (with no less than 6/7 digital filter choices) and also  highly reviewed. Yet, the Schiit Modi-2 Uber being used prior (in USB mode), proved far more musical !

 

If typical "hi-fi language" is used; breaking down sound in terms of non-music language ("bass power",  "sweet highs" , "liquid this/that") the new DAC is easily recognizable; it's"bright/clear", dynamic, smooth, and both rich and detailed.

BUT,  no matter the filter choice, the SQ never really inspired.  I kept looking for the Filter choice that was the most musical.

 

After 48-hours (the unit was second-hand/had settled), I re-connected the Modi 2 Uber -and ahhh, that simple, sheer sense that all of the musician's (and the recording engineer) were spot-on; playing off each other (guitar, piano, percussion, vocals) in splendid harmony. It was easy to "hear" (and enjoy) the body of the music; the carrying (primary") instruments of the song all beautifully interwoven as one !

 

Not so with the near 10X more expensive model. Of course, it may  something else within my system. Or maybe not. At this point (in time), I shall simply use the "lesser" DAC  as it consistently  draws attention to the music in a very natural, compelling, enriching, musical manner.

With that said, the new DAC is more at home when connected to a CD transport. Naturally, more time is required to listen -let  alone evaluate.

 

Moving on, I believe this is simply an example of a product that has been designed by a professional, naturally, (but clearly tuned by ear) by an industry veteran who understands (perhaps full well) what is, and is not important when designing a musically compelling component.

 

In the end, I feel that most of us (audiophiles) would be best served if we listen to the music (let the music speak) as opposed to defining sound in any terms other than those associated with genuine musical merit.         

 

peter jasz

Edited January 12, 2018 by allhifi
basic editing/typo's.

[Guest Muon N']

Welcome to SNA, Peter

[BATMAQN]

Welcome Peter

 

Bucket list destination Canada.

[allhifi]

9 hours ago, Muon N' said:

Welcome to SNA, Peter

Thank you !

 

pj

[allhifi]

25 minutes ago, BATMAQN said:

Welcome Peter

 

Bucket list destination Canada.

Hi Bat-MQA-man. How clever. Thank you.

 

 pj

(I'm not certain how MQA  is viewed outside North America, but man there is quite the 'bite-back' from the USA.)

[BATMAQN]

2 minutes ago, allhifi said:

(I'm not certain how MQA  is viewed outside North America, but man there is quite the 'bite-back' from the USA.)

I don't know, when you say bite back does that mean people aren't liking it?

I don't know much about it to be honest not really into the technical aspects of gear thats what the smart people are for   I just like to listen to music reproduced as nicely as possible.

 

Cheers mate.

[cheekyboy]

Hi @allhifi Peter, it is a real trap to associate a higher price tag with improved SQ. I do stream music here as well as play CDs occasionally, but really, if I want really good sound quality that hardly ever lets me down, I keep spinning those big black plastic discs on the turntable................highly recommended BTW.

 

Hope you enjoy your time here on StereoNET too and keep out of the cold over there.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[allhifi]

Touche' !

Thanks Keith.

 

pj

[allhifi]

3 hours ago, BATMAQN said:

I don't know, when you say bite back does that mean people aren't liking it?

I don't know much about it to be honest not really into the technical aspects of gear thats what the smart people are for   I just like to listen to music reproduced as nicely as possible.

 

Cheers mate.

Lol -as I read back to myself "bite-back"; backlash should have been used ! 

 

I believe MQA (Master Quality Authenticated) a fine option in offering consistently musical sound from hifi (gear) of all quality levels.

 

pj  

[djb]

Sound quality is, I think, best observed - no heard- in a comparison to live music.

 We must not stop going to concerts. We need to remember what instruments sound like.

[ThirdDrawerDown]

Daft Punk world tour? I'm in!

[djb]

You and @caddisgeek will enjoy the comparison

[mwhouston]

I only stream internet radio at 320kps or play from a 2T drive with minimum rez at 24/96 from my Pi server and DXD DIY DAC. A friend, who I believe has a golden ear, says MQA from Tidal is better then non MQA. His gear would allow you (and he) to  pick the difference; Harbeth 40.2, Ayon DAC, my DIY T3 Tripath 150W monoblocks ("Tutu") etc. etc. I haven't had a chance to eval. MQA myself and not sure it delivers on a promise but until convinced one way or another I must keep my mind open.

 

 

It may never worry me though because I only use internet radio from the PI for background music. When seriously listening, (4hours a day 5 to 6 days a week) I'm on high rez Pi files (up to DSD64), LPs, SACDs or CDs. MQA better or not, don't care but would like to know if it is better?

 

 

[allhifi]

On 1/13/2018 at 4:40 PM, djb said:

Sound quality is, I think, best observed - no heard- in a comparison to live music.

 We must not stop going to concerts. We need to remember what instruments sound like.

Concerts, yes. But forget not the sound(s) of the beautiful (natural) sounds of a competent player upon the piano, or with guitar, mandolin, harmonica, accordion  in hand -along with singing (talking) voices in living rooms (and camp fires) across the globe.  

 

Defining SQ is rather simple; with great 'tone', nearby, it's impossible (for the music loving among us) not to take immediate (and passionate) interest -just as the 'live' playing in the examples above.

 

pj

[allhifi]

36 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

I only stream internet radio at 320kps or play from a 2T drive with minimum rez at 24/96 from my Pi server and DXD DIY DAC. A friend, who I believe has a golden ear, says MQA from Tidal is better then non MQA. His gear would allow you (and he) to  pick the difference; Harbeth 40.2, Ayon DAC, my DIY T3 Tripath 150W monoblocks ("Tutu") etc. etc. I haven't had a chance to eval. MQA myself and not sure it delivers on a promise but until convinced one way or another I must keep my mind open.

 

 

It may never worry me though because I only use internet radio from the PI for background music. When seriously listening, (4hours a day 5 to 6 days a week) I'm on high rez Pi files (up to DSD64), LPs, SACDs or CDs. MQA better or not, don't care but would like to know if it is better?

 

 

mwh: With the "right" Internet radio station (think Soma FM -try Left Coast 70's; 128 kb/s) streaming SQ between 128-320 kb/s can be surprisingly/shockingly good !

 

With respect to MQA, I believe the real beneficiaries may be the non-audiophile crowd. The "end-to-end" system of MQA; specifically the ADC/DAC "corrections" applied may serve the causal listener the best as sophisticated equipment & DAC's otherwise demanded may  not be required.

 

I have not experienced MQA personally. I have no "skin-in-the-game" so to  speak. I will continue to enjoy excellent sound from my existing recordings (CD's primarily -also copied 'WAV file' to HDD).

 

For those experienced, we all know what a single cable change, or equipment placement (think audio stands) or other seemingly trivial changes can impart upon the listening experience. These changes can often be profound -MQA or not !

Looking at it another way; if one is not happy with the current SQ of their Hi-Fi, MQA is not the answer.

 

peter jasz

        

[djb]

@mwhouston tripath mono blocks mmm intrigues me.

tripath must have developed hugely since I played with them a little 20 years ago

[mwhouston]

8 hours ago, allhifi said:

mwh: With the "right" Internet radio station (think Soma FM -try Left Coast 70's; 128 kb/s) streaming SQ between 128-320 kb/s can be surprisingly/shockingly good !

 

With respect to MQA, I believe the real beneficiaries may be the non-audiophile crowd. The "end-to-end" system of MQA; specifically the ADC/DAC "corrections" applied may serve the causal listener the best as sophisticated equipment & DAC's otherwise demanded may  not be required.

 

I have not experienced MQA personally. I have no "skin-in-the-game" so to  speak. I will continue to enjoy excellent sound from my existing recordings (CD's primarily -also copied 'WAV file' to HDD).

 

For those experienced, we all know what a single cable change, or equipment placement (think audio stands) or other seemingly trivial changes can impart upon the listening experience. These changes can often be profound -MQA or not !

Looking at it another way; if one is not happy with the current SQ of their Hi-Fi, MQA is not the answer.

 

peter jasz

        

Agree on a number of fronts. Here is a tip I stumbled on some years back. If ripping CDs or even downloading from iTunes (as I often do) up-sample your files to 24/96 WAV and be amazed how much better they sound. I posted this process on a forum once years ago that I was up-sampling iTunes downloads and thought they sounded better. There was a few guys who said that they had experience the same phenomen but not sure why.

 

iTunes wouldn't put up files ripped from a CD. They would work with the original master file (maybe even DXD) in most circumstances then ALAC it. So there is more SQ in the iTunes file than red book. When you download and up-sample it you are getting back more of the original high rez. master. 

 

More recently I got two a guys, Moggy and Dan, who will remain nameless, onto a Pi server and the same very high performance DIY DAC board I use. They are incredibly impressed, as are a few others, on how good the Pi server and DIY AK4495SEQ DAC brd. are. And Dan agreed the up-sampling appears to bring out more of the music than leaving it red book.

 

Is it a Claytons MQA, the MQA you have when your not really having MQA? No answer to this conundrum but it is easily demonstrable.

[Jeddie]

@mwhoustonHow do you ' up-sample your files to 24/96 WAV'?

[allhifi]

2 hours ago, mwhouston said:

Agree on a number of fronts. Here is a tip I stumbled on some years back. If ripping CDs or even downloading from iTunes (as I often do) up-sample your files to 24/96 WAV and be amazed how much better they sound. I posted this process on a forum once years ago that I was up-sampling iTunes downloads and thought they sounded better. There was a few guys who said that they had experience the same phenomen but not sure why.

 

iTunes wouldn't put up files ripped from a CD. They would work with the original master file (maybe even DXD) in most circumstances then ALAC it. So there is more SQ in the iTunes file than red book. When you download and up-sample it you are getting back more of the original high rez. master. 

 

More recently I got two a guys, Moggy and Dan, who will remain nameless, onto a Pi server and the same very high performance DIY DAC board I use. They are incredibly impressed, as are a few others, on how good the Pi server and DIY AK4495SEQ DAC brd. are. And Dan agreed the up-sampling appears to bring out more of the music than leaving it red book.

 

Is it a Claytons MQA, the MQA you have when your not really having MQA? No answer to this conundrum but it is easily demonstrable.

 

Hi MWH: Thanks for that. I have historically been slow on the uptake with modern hi-fi (i.e. CD-sound not even considered until the year 2000/2001, and most recently 'streaming/computer audio' until a few months back (September, 2017 !) So, I mercifully escaped the steep (and unrelenting) learning curve  of this format -including transferring CD's to HDD.

 

I' also must agree that the Pi (3B) with moOde/MPD -Linux OS and modest DAC  can be impressive with streaming audio.

In fact, the thought of a separate (mini) computer for nothing but hi-fi duty seems a very sensible choice for computer audio. And so it turned out when connected to a Schiit 'Modi 2Uber' DAC  several months back.

 

From here, for me, it is a matter of adding/playing with software programs (HQ Player) to see where it leads (i.e. up-sampling etc.).

 

And without question, considerable SQ improvement came with the inclusion of a AQ 'Carbon' USB cable (1.5m ) from Pi to DAC. As is the choice of Ethernet cable from computer to Pi (3B). All of this has (yet again) proven immeasurably beneficial to SQ.

 

I look forward to the extent  to which computer audio can rival the finest playback sources we've come to rely on (and enjoy) over the past decades.

 

 pj 

[mwhouston]

1 hour ago, allhifi said:

 

Hi MWH: Thanks for that. I have historically been slow on the uptake with modern hi-fi (i.e. CD-sound not even considered until the year 2000/2001, and most recently 'streaming/computer audio' until a few months back (September, 2017 !) So, I mercifully escaped the steep (and unrelenting) learning curve  of this format -including transferring CD's to HDD.

 

I' also must agree that the Pi (3B) with moOde/MPD -Linux OS and modest DAC  can be impressive with streaming audio.

In fact, the thought of a separate (mini) computer for nothing but hi-fi duty seems a very sensible choice for computer audio. And so it turned out when connected to a Schiit 'Modi 2Uber' DAC  several months back.

 

From here, for me, it is a matter of adding/playing with software programs (HQ Player) to see where it leads (i.e. up-sampling etc.).

 

And without question, considerable SQ improvement came with the inclusion of a AQ 'Carbon' USB cable (1.5m ) from Pi to DAC. As is the choice of Ethernet cable from computer to Pi (3B). All of this has (yet again) proven immeasurably beneficial to SQ.

 

I look forward to the extent  to which computer audio can rival the finest playback sources we've come to rely on (and enjoy) over the past decades.

 

 pj 

I jumped the computer\laptop based music and went straight into the Pi from CD player and LPS. Saved from costly software and external DACs. My Oppo 95AU did play files based music and I thought good until I made my own DAC with an AK4495\XMOS based DCA card fed from the Pi.

 

My problem is it is so good I have to force myself to play anything else though I play  LPs more often and occasional CDs. 

[mwhouston]

3 hours ago, Jeddie said:

@mwhoustonHow do you ' up-sample your files to 24/96 WAV'?

I use a German program called Switch. It will convert any format to any format up to 24/96. It will also down sample, e.g. 329kps MP3s or FLACs of any Rez. Works flawlessly. You can dump whole directories in it or singe files.  

 

It can rip a CD and up-sample at tha same time. 

[JSmith]

If the system is transparent, plays the source as intended and unrestricted, then defining sound quality surely is in the realm of the sources themselves.

 

... might grab a pie now with some red ned.

 

JSmith 

[allhifi]

1 hour ago, mwhouston said:

I jumped the computer\laptop based music and went straight into the Pi from CD player and LPS. Saved from costly software and external DACs. My Oppo 95AU did play files based music and I thought good until I made my own DAC with an AK4495\XMOS based DCA card fed from the Pi.

 

My problem is it is so good I have to force myself to play anything else though I play  LPs more often and occasional CDs. 

A great "problem" to have ! lol.

I honestly and vividly recall working at a hi-fi shop in 1988 painfully realizing it was impossible for me/us to set up a great sound-system with CD as the front-end.  It 'pains me' recalling those dark digital years. It was a sonic mess, nightmare in fact. And so vinyl ruled the 80's, 90's and early 2000's. Some say it continues to.

What I know is that by the turn of the century, I could actually derive some listening pleasure from CD. And so I slowly sold-off my 2K vinyl collection -saving a treasured 100 or so that I have to this day. I remain impressed with tables/vinyl today, but not once regretted the move; it only took, say, 18-years (1982-2000) for the CD format (in my mind) to reach listen-ability. Ouch. Nearly twenty years !

 

I am impressed with your DIY DAC (AKM 4495)/XMOS) & Pi set-up. You have far more talent than moi.

What I have done recently was acquire a (used) Gustard X-20pro DAC and finally got everything (Pi/Moode, computer, Tidal) communicating/singing nicely.

It's an impressive sounding, modern/flexible, very nicely designed and built product; ESS 9028pro (X2) chips (with 6/7 digital filter choices), 'Adaptive' and Normal/ESS-derived Clocks, Dig. Inputs including i2S (over HDMI), BNC, Coax, AES/EBU (and TOSlink?) lol.

I never heard Pink Floyd's "Division Bell" sound so amazing; full-range/fleshed out with impressive tonality; bite/smoothness/speed and layering. Thus, my first Tidal HiFi "streaming" experience a memorable one.

 

To think, 30-years after that dreadful day/era, back in 1988. My my ...

pj 

[mwhouston]

A blind man with a white stick could make the AK4495 DAC I made. Two trannies, and enclsoure (I added a RFI/EMI power filter) power cord, fuse and switch and it's done. Two hours work tops. But it's only USB in. The output buffer chip is flat to 50MHz. Beyond my hearing at 65. Lol. The PS and regs are all on the one board. LT regs of course. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by mwhouston

[allhifi]

2 hours ago, mwhouston said:

A blind man with a white stick could make the AK4495 DAC I made. Two trannies, and enclsoure (I added a RFI/EMI power filter) power cord, fuse and switch and it's done. Two hours work tops. But it's only USB in. The output buffer chip is flat to 50MHz. Beyond my hearing at 65. Lol. The PS and regs are all on the one board. LT regs of course. 

 

Hi MWH: Hmmm, with a stick no less ? You are too modest, I say. 

 

Although I enjoyed the 50 MHz and age jibe, this hearing extension (Hz.) thing as we age is far too over-rated (and simplified); a recent Japanese study of those in their 80's 90's some restricted to 5-6 KHz. (linearly/accurately) could easily detect/enjoy superior sound quality. A tone at 5 KHz is high pitched, let's not forget -those extending beyond 10 KHz., are largely harmonics of most music instruments core (fundamental) frequency.

While some of the the younger (whipper-snappers -lol) may joke about superior hearing extension beyond 10K, I maintain it's the processing circuits that are most crucial -and we know who wins out there !

 

peter jasz      

On 1/11/2018 at 1:36 PM, Muon N' said:

Welcome to SNA, Peter