4K IP security cameras

[kukynas]

I've been watching IP camera space for couple of years and patiently waiting until high quality 4K IP cameras become affordable, that time is here, bite the bullet and ordered one yesterday, specs are here, mine is coming with 2.8mm lens 

Why 4K (8Mp) IP camera? same reason as in case of standard photo camera, with higher pixel density you can crop more and easily without loosing quality, how does it work and what to expect from such camera is shown below

 

 

another cropping (digital zoom) below starts 5:20

 

 

what to expect from different codecs H264 vs. H265 under different conditions and overall day/night picture quality, this video also showing what new EXIR 2.0 IR LED is capable of

 

 

I will confirm chipset and sensor used once it arrives but for now I would assume it's the same as used in Dahua IPC-HDW4831EM-ASE which is IMX274LQC

 

Price wise between $130-140 USD delivered if you buy directly from AliExpress, usually $250-300 from your local distributors

 

 

 

[kukynas]

so far so good, high quality as expected from Hikvision, now just to find suitable 12V PSU and it's ready for test 

 

[Pulse-R]

Does it have PoE?

[kukynas]

yep

[Camo1151990]

Hey mate,

 

What Video Recorder are you using?

 

Thanks mate

[kukynas]

nothing yet, won't be able to install it until March/April next year (too cold outside and new cables need to be wired under the ceiling from outside) but once done I'm still not 100% sure if I use my current Synology NAS which has built in surveillance app (tested and works fine) or any of the Hikvision recorders, DS-7604NI-K1/4P would be best option for $150 bucks delivered, DS-7608NI-K2/8P is 8 channel version if required, the easy of use and POE support (less cables) has advantages over NAS but NAS might have easier integration within home network including mobile app so will see once it is hooked up, next to that I still plan to test IPC-HDW4831EM-ASE as alternative beginning of new year so things might change slightly

[kukynas]

Hikvision after long testing proved to be little disappointment, I thought it's on the same level like Dahua but it's not, it's not bad for short distances and good day light but anything else and it start struggle heavily so I will continue with Dahua brand which is proven concept with genuine IMX family sensors from Sony

 

in the meantime below arrived from local shop (135 bucks delivered with full local warranty), fully motorized PT indoor wi-fi 4MP (2K) camera, one which doesn't need more than app on your phone accessible from anywhere where's internet available with full setting options and remote control like any other pan/tilt camera

 

 

next to try for outdoor is IPC-HDW5831R-ZE (200 USD delivered), below some comparison and info for those interested

 

  

[Lloyd Borrett]

Many thanks. I've been thinking about doing something with IP based security cameras for a while and that video inspired me to move on it. I went to buy some cameras and wall mount brackets, but quickly realised there was much more I needed to know about how to set it all up. I hope the answers to the questions below would cover it, but there is probably plenty I don't even know to ask.

 

Is PoE used to power the cameras, or some other power supply? If so how?

 

Are Wi-Fi based cameras in places you can't get network cabling to acceptable, or should they all be wired?

 

Do I need an x-port security managed PoE switch for these setups, and if so what?

 

Or do I bring everything back to a PoE x-port NVR, and if so what?

 

Where is the security video recorded? On an NVR, NAS, or what else, and if so how?

 

What software should I use for this sort of setup? Does it come with the cameras, or an NVR, or should I use the sort of software found on say a Synology NAS, or something else entirely?

 

Are there particular codecs that need to be used to efficiently store the security footage, plus move so many 4K 8MP feeds simultaneously over the network cabling?

 

For how many days should the security footage kept?

 

How much disk space is required per 4K 8MP camera?

 

I'm sure the Stereo.net community brains trust will be able to provide great answers for total noobs like me.

Edited June 30, 2018 by lloyd_borrett

[Marc]

I have 8 x Hikvision cameras (current high-end models) that I can't recall the model number. However after about 6 months I'm really unhappy with them.

They lose their PoE connection back to Synology all the time (previous cameras did not). Support is pretty much non-existent. All they do is say update the firmware, but I have nothing but trouble trying to find the right firmware and making it stick.

 

I've given up and ordered some Dahua ones (listed above) so I'll report back when they arrive.

 

I pay for Surveillance Station on Synology and find that great. I keep just a few days of storage but yes the space does start stacking up after days of 8MP x 10 cameras. If I was to set up again, I'd have a seperate NVR for my surveillance system. I've found I can choke the bandwidth of the NAS with all my media (video and audio) plus the camera streams.

[kukynas]

8 hours ago, lloyd_borrett said:

Is PoE used to power the cameras, or some other power supply? If so how?

Are Wi-Fi based cameras in places you can't get network cabling to acceptable, or should they all be wired?

Do I need an x-port security managed PoE switch for these setups, and if so what?

Or do I bring everything back to a PoE x-port NVR, and if so what?

Where is the security video recorded? On an NVR, NAS, or what else, and if so how?

What software should I use for this sort of setup? Does it come with the cameras, or an NVR, or should I use the sort of software found on say a Synology NAS, or something else entirely?

Are there particular codecs that need to be used to efficiently store the security footage, plus move so many 4K 8MP feeds simultaneously over the network cabling?

For how many days should the security footage kept?

How much disk space is required per 4K 8MP camera?

I'm sure the Stereo.net community brains trust will be able to provide great answers for total noobs like me.

- you can use standard LAN(RJ45) cable for powering up your cameras via PoE, you don't need anything else...if not PoE possible you can use standard 12V/2.5A power supply

- yes that's their purpose, you don't need all wired but in that case very good Wi-Fi coverage, on the other hand I haven't seen Wi-Fi based 4K IP camera

- yes, all depended on how many cameras you plan to use, I don't use PoE at the moment so won't tell you which is best

- you can as well, again depended on # of cameras, this is one I would go for  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Original-egnlish-version-dahua-POE-NVR-4-8CH-1U-4PoE-Network-Video-Recorder-NVR4104-P-NVR4108/32658855684.html?spm=2114.search0104.8.4.4eb86620P3zpCD&priceBeautifyAB=0

- depends on your planned setup, do you plan using PoE switch? do you have NAS? NVR linked above can cover all your needs, it acts as your PoE source and recorder at the same time, everything what you need beside it is HDD

- you can chose what ever software you want, NVR has it's own, NAS has it's own but for both cases you can use 3rd party software available, first try the one provided by NVR or NAS and you'll see if it's sufficient for your needs

- yes, H.264 or H.265, both supported by camera and NVR, in case of NAS you need to choose correct model which supports those, usually all todays mid to high models

- depends on your needs and size of your HDD

- in H.264 codec approximately 2MB every second, in H.265 codec 1.2MB every second, multiply it by number of cameras and days you plan to keep your recording i.e. 1 x 4K H.265 continues stream will fulfill aprox 100GB per 24 hours on your HDD, if you set your cameras to only trigger on moving subjects you can safe a lot of space

 

as @Marc  said above separate NVR has it's own advantages and where possible I would go with NVR for its easy setup and operation (including cabling without switch)

[kukynas]

one more thing when choosing correct NVR with PoE, depended on # of channels, total bandwidth but also consumption of cameras as NVR might have restriction for total PoE supply, https://www.dahuasecurity.com/products/allProducts/100 

[Lloyd Borrett]

After a bit more research, I'm thinking about sourcing a security setup with eight Dahua IPC-HDW5831R-ZE (4K 8MP IP) Cameras with Dahua PFB203W wall brackets feeding into a Dahua DHI-NVR5416-16P-4KS2E Pro Network Video Recorder (16 Channel 1.5U 16PoE 4K&H.265) with four Western Digital WD 8TB Purple 3.5" Hard Drives. Then display it all on a couple of 4K big screens.

 

PoE should make the wiring easier.

 

Maybe more cameras will be needed to properly cover all areas, hence the 16 channel NVR.

 

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[kukynas]

@lloyd_borrett with your setup above you might be paying more than you really need to, first start with lower number of cameras to get familiar with its quality and setting, also with overall coverage and field of view, there might be better cameras for i.e. night vision more suitable for your needs so you can divide your camera purchase into categories...  

secondly I don't think you need NVR with 4HDDs (explanation below), 2 should be enough and it's 40% cheaper, NVR5216-16P-4KS2E should do the trick... 

in terms of HDD, I would take 2x WD100EFAX with lower power consumption and higher endurance

 

why 2x 10TB HDDs should be enough, as mentioned above in my calculation 1x 4K camera can fulfill up to 100GB of space on your HDD a day if you use continues recording which is in my view completely useless, not only you wasting space on HDD but also recording no activity so in case of later search you would have to go through several hours of recording to find event you've been looking for, if you set your record triggering only for moving subjects or certain time during the day you might save up to 90% of total space so 10GB vs. 100GB...

 

in such case your 8x 4K recording will be less than 100GB a day so 3 months of recording on one 10TB disk (or 2 in case of raid configuration) 

[sjay]

we use this vendor for CCTV at work

 

https://www.mobotix.com/en/products/outdoor-cameras

 

awesome hardware and even better software. encoding is done on chip etc....

 

might be useful to those of you needed higher end solutions.

[Lloyd Borrett]

On 06/07/2018 at 7:38 PM, kukynas said:

@lloyd_borrett with your setup above you might be paying more than you really need to...

 

first start with lower number of cameras...

 

secondly I don't think you need NVR with 4HDDs (explanation below)...

 

Normally that's an approach I'd take. However, I think I'm going to need at least 4 more cameras to fully cover the place. Hence choosing a 16 channel NVR. The camera model chosen seems to cover day and night very well, thus standardisation on the one model makes sense. But if I get that wrong, I can fix it when adding the extra cameras later.

 

Initially I'll probably only get two hard drives and see how it goes.

[kukynas]

just ordered: 

1x IPC-HDW5231R-ZE for low light (night vision) purposes, basically covering main entrance without turning IR on and still maintaining high quality 

1x IPC-HDW5831R-ZE for coverage of bigger area front of the house 

2x PFB203W wall mount

1x NVR5208-8P-4KS2 for recording

hyperlinks are part of the items

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by kukynas
added hyperlinks into items

[kukynas]

below some comparisons between above mentioned cameras (you need to be registered to see full size pictures) , as said before Starlight (2Mp) is better for low light (night vision) purposes and where cropping isn't required

 

https://ipcamtalk.com/threads/dahua-ipc-hdw5831r-ze.22031/

 

@Marc  I didn't try the surveillance station in my new DS918+ but if I remember well from previous DS there weren't advanced functions such as face detection etc. available like in Dahua Pro NVRs, any progress on your side? 

 

there's new 12MP version in the same chassis coming so let's see how it compares to 8MP version, I would expect in 4K mode to be little more detailed and low light video bit clearer but lets see for real comparisons, the main disadvantage for now is its price, $450 is too much for little extra details...

 

[kukynas]

1 cam and NVR arrived, I paid little extra for UPS expedited tax free delivery, all very well packed and looks good so far... except one little problem, NVR is wider/deeper then the hole in the ceiling plasterboard , no idea how to get it there yet but first I need to buy spare HDD to test it and see how it all works...

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by kukynas
added picture of the NVR internals

[OCD]

On 01/07/2018 at 7:55 AM, Marc said:

I have 8 x Hikvision cameras (current high-end models) that I can't recall the model number. However after about 6 months I'm really unhappy with them.

They lose their PoE connection back to Synology all the time (previous cameras did not). Support is pretty much non-existent. All they do is say update the firmware, but I have nothing but trouble trying to find the right firmware and making it stick.

 

I've given up and ordered some Dahua ones (listed above) so I'll report back when they arrive.

 

I pay for Surveillance Station on Synology and find that great. I keep just a few days of storage but yes the space does start stacking up after days of 8MP x 10 cameras. If I was to set up again, I'd have a seperate NVR for my surveillance system. I've found I can choke the bandwidth of the NAS with all my media (video and audio) plus the camera streams.

Any update on this Marc?

 

 

[Marc]

Yes, the Dahua's have performed flawlessly, offering better resolution and reliability both in day and night overall.

[OCD]

19 minutes ago, Marc said:

Yes, the Dahua's have performed flawlessly, offering better resolution and reliability both in day and night overall.

What did you get if you dont mind me asking?

[Marc]

The ones discussed in the thread.

[JK200SX]

Hi, Its been a while, but can you comment on how you went with your setup?

Also, would you recommend the Ali express seller you purchased from? ie authenticity of items etc?

[kukynas]

Hi,

in the end I ended up not using NVR, I didn't think about in advance how NVR operates, it takes IP addresses from cameras and convert them into internal addresses not accessible directly, means you can't use setting available in camera firmware which in many cases is superior to the NVR capabilities and functionalities, secondly you basically loose external access through the mobile app so I got them linked directly to the router and records to the NAS, you can still access camera setting internally via web base access and change whatever you need

yes, but not sure if they still selling them, you can always search on aliexpress for best price and reviews from other buyers, these are genuine cameras so if there would be any issue buyers would report it 

[Mat-with-one-t]

On 02/04/2019 at 11:29 AM, Marc said:

Yes, the Dahua's have performed flawlessly, offering better resolution and reliability both in day and night overall.

I'm back on this ride again.  Having just had our caravan stolen from outside our house whilst we slept, and an endless stream of ne're-do-wells in our dead-end street, it's time to sort some cameras.  I'd appreciate any help!! 

 

Marc - which Synology NAS are you using, and may I please get a brief lowdown of its setup?  I understand 2 licences are supplied, with extras at ?$50 per camera (and is this for "life")?

 

Initially I was told/had read that Hikvision were the go, but it's looking like Dahua is the biz? 

 

I have a home pre-wired with Cat6 and I can did this cabling myself, so hooking up POE units should be easy.  I have already left some Cat6 in the walls ready for some cameras (if I can remember where it all is!!  All Cat6 terminates in a laundry cupboard.  I always thought an addition of a NAS may be useful, so perhaps a Synology or QNAP NAS, running Surveillance Station (rather than a dedicated recorder) is the go?

 

Camera needs:

1. Main camera(s) to get quality street scape.  Needs to handle night vision and motion detection.  Needs to capture number plates and hopefully faces (always under hoodies eh?) in less than ideal light.  Needs motion detection.  Would need to be properly weatherproof.

2. cameras to cover front door/path leading to door, and back door (both under eaves)

3. camera to cover back yard (which can easily be accessed via surrounding parks).  Again, low light and motion detection important. 

 

So that's maybe 1 fancy one, one slightly fancy one, and 2 basic ones (=4)

 

When I finish my shed/workshop, I'd like to put one inside the shed, and one on a bike storage unit.  That'd make 6.

 

Thoughts from everyone?

 

Thanks!  MAt