To sub or not to sub

[betty boop]

12 minutes ago, Rustee said:

Thanks @:) al. Nice sub. I imagine something like this would be too powerful for my space and system? I'm just thinking with the dream sub I had to have the volume so low, and it's got half the power of that beast.

Have actually been thinking that a used sub might be a better option for me, less outlay if I don't get it right. And it's fun finding bargains!

 

Will definitely play around with sub positioning tomorrow night.

the dream sounds so bad you are having to turn right down.

 

power is simply headroom. you will be dialing in and configuring so as joz said works in seamlessly. good subs that are dialled in to perfection you dont hear ! i.e. dont stick out like a sore thumb

 

I note the MA sub there comes with its own setup and eq system for integration. this isn't unusual with paradigm and velodyne subs also coming with these kind of systems on board and have done for years.

[A9X]

2 hours ago, Rustee said:

Wow you're not wrong, that will come in handy, thanks 

Glad you found it some help. Jerry (AustinJerry on AVS) put it together and updates it regularly. When you get it all set up, I'm sure he'd love an 'attaboy'.

2 hours ago, Rustee said:

could it also be the room causing this not so great sound? It isn't a brick house and it isn't on a slab ??

There are pluses and minuses to both. If you find a spot for the sub and it causes a floor resonance, that's easy to solve with some hardwood and bricks, providing you can get under the floor.

 

2 hours ago, joz said:

Welcome to subs, finding what works best with the rest of your gear and room is a start , intergrating them is the next.

When correct they will be a seamless extension of your mains.

I basically agree with Joe, but find integration to be the main issue. It requires MEASUREMENT to get it right. I have a mic, preamp, stand cables etc I can usually loan out if you're in Sydney. Sometimes I can even help.

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Rustee said:

Thanks!

Good news, glad to know the general structure of the house isn't going to be terrible for my music.

Ok will try that, likely tomorrow night and will feed back how it went. 

My mains are ported if that's what you were referring to in your first point? 

yes and my bad, I thought you said the main speakers were sealed. Ported mains are quite ok and do well at the transition to the sub.

As suggested, the sub should not be actually noticed at the transition. Asso of note is the sub shouldn't be able to be localised, that is you shouldn't know where the thunder is coming from in room. You will note looking at others subs, in pairs are mostly positioned close to the mains, with singles, normally close to front center.

One silly but effective test/method is to actually park the sub in your listening position and then crawl all over the room to find where the sup integrates well with the mains, place sub there  that's one of @:) al 's favourites and it works

[powerav]

7 hours ago, Rustee said:

I found I was turning down the volume and cross over pretty much until the sub volume was at about an 1/8 and the cross over point was turned down to about a quarter. This sounded better.

Without turning the adjustments down to these levels the sub just drowned my speakers of clarity. Even at these low settings on all bar a couple of songs (only tested a hand full of songs while wife went grocery shopping - gotta make the most of these opportunities!) I'm not sure I can really say I preferred it. In some cases it provided a nice bit of back bone to my bass but in others it just felt like I lost my clean sound.

I had that as well for about 15 years, then I took the advice of someone in  the industry and got a DSPeaker Antimode 8033C and now the planets have aligned. 

[powerav]

 

[A9X]

5 hours ago, 125dBmonster said:

Ported mains are quite ok and do well at the transition to the sub.

Are you suggesting x-ing to the sub at the mains tuning? Because of the phase it makes it difficult; as most floorstanders are tuned around 40Hz, X at 80Hz and you effectively have a sealed speaker as the port will receive no signal (with a suitable, and necessary HPF).

49 minutes ago, powerav said:

DSPeaker Antimode 8033C

A MiniDSP is much more powerful, flexible and cheaper.

 

As for the McGowan video, what a load of tripe. With cheap and very powerful tools available today, it's a foolish punter that doesn't take advantage of them. Suggesting tuning by ear is simply bollocks as our hearing is particularly poor that low, you can't differentiate modes, especially nulls so it's impossible to really tell what you're actually hearing.

 

PSA have had little cred with me, and after this dross, none at all.

[Guest]

20 hours ago, A9X said:

Are you suggesting x-ing to the sub at the mains tuning? Because of the phase it makes it difficult; as most floorstanders are tuned around 40Hz, X at 80Hz and you effectively have a sealed speaker as the port will receive no signal (with a suitable, and necessary HPF).

No just above the port tuning of the mains

Agree the mains need the HPF (high pass filter)

 

The miniDSP would have to be the go, quite like mine.

 

[powerav]

5 hours ago, A9X said:

A MiniDSP is much more powerful, flexible and cheaper.

Really? I priced one when I was looking and with all the extra stuff you need with it, I don’t think so.

[AudioGeek]

11 hours ago, A9X said:

Glad you found it some help. Jerry (AustinJerry on AVS) put it together and updates it regularly. When you get it all set up, I'm sure he'd love an 'attaboy'.

There are pluses and minuses to both. If you find a spot for the sub and it causes a floor resonance, that's easy to solve with some hardwood and bricks, providing you can get under the floor.

 

I basically agree with Joe, but find integration to be the main issue. It requires MEASUREMENT to get it right. I have a mic, preamp, stand cables etc I can usually loan out if you're in Sydney. Sometimes I can even help.

Very generous offer to the OP. I also have measuring gear, but am very much an amateur at using it!

If the OP is close by, I also have a quality sub you can test with

[Rustee]

11 hours ago, A9X said:

Glad you found it some help. Jerry (AustinJerry on AVS) put it together and updates it regularly. When you get it all set up, I'm sure he'd love an 'attaboy'.

Will do 

11 hours ago, A9X said:

There are pluses and minuses to both. If you find a spot for the sub and it causes a floor resonance, that's easy to solve with some hardwood and bricks, providing you can get under the floor.

Yep I have fairly good access under the floor. Hardwood and bricks, is that to pack from ground to underside of floor for a solid base?

 

12 hours ago, A9X said:

I basically agree with Joe, but find integration to be the main issue. It requires MEASUREMENT to get it right. I have a mic, preamp, stand cables etc I can usually loan out if you're in Sydney. Sometimes I can even help.

Thanks @A9X for that generous offer, much appreciated  I'm 1 hour south of Sydney at the Gong. Once I get my sub and learn a bit about measurements I might call on some assistance or advice at least! 

 

[Rustee]

11 hours ago, 125dBmonster said:

yes and my bad, I thought you said the main speakers were sealed. Ported mains are quite ok and do well at the transition to the sub.

As suggested, the sub should not be actually noticed at the transition. Asso of note is the sub shouldn't be able to be localised, that is you shouldn't know where the thunder is coming from in room. You will note looking at others subs, in pairs are mostly positioned close to the mains, with singles, normally close to front center.

One silly but effective test/method is to actually park the sub in your listening position and then crawl all over the room to find where the sup integrates well with the mains, place sub there  that's one of @:) al 's favourites and it works

hmm I am hoping that my sub won't have to live in the front and centre - not ideal in my living room.

Funny I was just reading about the 'crawl' method a couple of days ago, very interesting and seemingly a simple way to get it close to the right position.

[Rustee]

6 hours ago, A9X said:

most floorstanders are tuned around 40Hz, X at 80Hz and you effectively have a sealed speaker as the port will receive no signal (with a suitable, and necessary HPF).

HPF - is this something else I must get?...not sure my budget is going to allow for sub, DSP, HPF, measurement mic etc.. I tried looking them up and mainly found circuitry images. 

If I did have a HPF does that then mean I couldn't play my mains without the sub (without having to move/disconnect the HPF) ? 

[Rustee]

4 hours ago, 125dBmonster said:

Agree the mains need the HPF (high pass filter)

What are these worth? Didn't have much luck searching for them. Is this a plug in thing or something I need to integrate/wire into my amp.

 

[Rustee]

25 minutes ago, AudioGeek said:

Very generous offer to the OP. I also have measuring gear, but am very much an amateur at using it!

If the OP is close by, I also have a quality sub you can test with

Seriously, thanks @AudioGeek. Wow you guys blow me away, really. I know nothing about using measurement equipment so would be heavily dependent on help right now which I'd feel bad about (by not being of any help). So a test with a good sub and possible measurements before actually biting the bullet and buying anything...wow that would be bloody good.

[Nigel]

"Mains need a HP filter" -oh no ! everything goes through 1 more cap, at least !!  well that all depends on the overlap with the subs. 

My mains start rolling off from around 100Hz which is quite high and they sum nicely with a 12dB slope LP on the sub, F3 around 45Hz, so no need for a HP filter on my mains.

But if your mains were flat down to 50Hz and you added a sub, then the LP on the sub would have to be one of those "brickwall" 98dB/oct slopes or there

would be a big hump around 50Hz - too much bass.  Instead you may want to remove some of the bass from the mains with a HP filter up around 70Hz (?) as has been suggested by several here.

 

[powerav]

This is all getting crazy.....KISS.......

[PorkBun69s]

10 minutes ago, powerav said:

This is all getting crazy.....KISS.......

Did you expect any less?     But in all seriousness, the poor Op is now more confused with the wealth of options..

[Guest]

1 hour ago, powerav said:

@Satanica oh no you got a “PM” I’ve had a few of those from people that shared a different opinion, hope yours was a bit nicer than the ones I got.

No possibly not. We are here to enjoy the time and share with others.

Squabbling serves no purpose at all and we all are entitled to our opinion own.    

[Guest]

https://www.ebay.com.au/i/222333377908?chn=ps&dispctrl=1

[Rustee]

3 hours ago, powerav said:

This is all getting crazy.....KISS.......

yes, I do like the KISS principle!

3 hours ago, katattack74 said:

Did you expect any less?     But in all seriousness, the poor Op is now more confused with the wealth of options..

and yes 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Rustee

[Rustee]

2 hours ago, 125dBmonster said:

https://www.ebay.com.au/i/222333377908?chn=ps&dispctrl=1

Thanks, any links to a HPF?

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Rustee said:

Thanks, any links to a HPF?

this set up (has HPF) would require at least 3 amplifier channels (likely 4) and probably necessitate you find another power amp, which shouldn't be hard  almost anything would do for a start.

 

set up with that particular miniDSP device (which is the cheapest one) 

 

1 line out of your pre amp source integration section of your amp (which may have a by pass for such, most of my old Yamaha's used to have this ability)

2, line into the miniDSP input

3, line out back into the amplifier, running mains, this will have HPF Function via the DSP outpts 1 and 2

4, plug in another amp, second line out from the DSP 3 and 4, voila sub amp.

 

Get a lap top and interface it with the DSP via USB, down load the "Plug in" this might take some time though, vis miniDSP.com via Email and back to unlock your download

 

Load up the PC and open the DSP 

 

From there is world of EQ and other lovely stuff to integrate the Subs

 

Have only ever owned 1 miniDSP and don't intend to sell it as they are really cool, what you can do. For the Hobbiest, its awesome the power of the device to manipulate via Digital EQ.

 

If you wanted to learn something and have plenty of years to do so, this is the next step

 

Best, passive subs, with no amp required DIY heaven as sub drivers and box building is quite rewarding, provided you have the know how. There is heaps of help here though

 

All this for not a lot of coin, very little actually

Example, DSP !say $200

Sub Drivers from the car audio World, in enclosures S/H from the flee market

$100, maybe, for small sealed pair or similar, loads of stuff on GumTree

Clean little power amp $250 S/H is do able

 

Spend $550 or a little more to get going.

 

Enjoy

 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Guest
spelling

[Guest]

When you get to the point of "wanting more" buy a USB mic and get into measurements

 

really very rewarding, you might like it 

 

From there who knows, you might go a little bigger

[Guest]

An SNA'er loaded a pair of these onto a pallet today in NSW to go to Tassie, so my journey continues, will be using a miniDSP and 3 stereo power amps. things get simple when you "know" 

(sorry can barely contain my excitement)

[warweary]

Another consideration is sub level settings in ones amplifier, my Harman/Kardon HK990 has some useful subwoofer settings I suppose other amps do too.