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To sub or not to sub


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12 minutes ago, powerav said:

Well the Antimide 8033 is for you and me. No PC to use at all!

It looks good, but puts the signal through an extra D/A conversion which will mess with the head of most audiophiles.

 

Digital input version?

http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml

Edited by Satanica
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Mini-DSP does the same unless you have a model that accepts digital signals and plumb it up that way.

 

I file it in the category of inconsequential compared to the benefits of correcting gross frequency response errors in the bass.

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3 minutes ago, powerav said:

So what does that mean on subs? I don't understand

 

The signal that comes from the sub-out of your AVR is line level analogue. The anti-mode or Mini-DSP or whatever has to perform an ADC conversion to implement the peq, delays etc in the digital domain and then a DAC conversion on the output to feed the amp of your subwoofer.

Edited by Pieface
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15 minutes ago, Pieface said:

 

The signal that comes from the sub-out of your AVR is line level analogue. The anti-mode or Mini-DSP or whatever has to perform an ADC conversion to implement the peq, delays etc in the digital domain and then a DAC conversion on the output to feed the amp of your subwoofer.

Ok cool thanks, seems like common sense to me, why would anyone have an issue with this?

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2 minutes ago, powerav said:

Ok cool thanks, seems like common sense to me, why would anyone have an issue with this?

In your case you have an AVR which has already done digital to analog conversion and separated bass out with it's crossover.

 

But think of the most common setup of an audiophile, a two-channel setup which is most likely going to have an input from a DAC of some sort and/or a turntable.

They don't want their precious and pure analog signal converted to digital, then messed with and then converted back to analog again.

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4 minutes ago, Satanica said:

In your case you have an AVR which has already done digital to analog conversion and separated bass out with it's crossover.

 

But think of the most common setup of an audiophile, a two-channel setup which is most likely going to have an input from a DAC of some sort and/or a turntable.

They don't want their precious and pure analog signal converted to digital, then messed with and then converted back to analog again.

Especially by something that costs a poofteenth of their TT/CDplayer/externalDAC

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Just now, powerav said:

They're weird.

To be fair in your setup you don't have to worry about it, at least anywhere near as much.

And to be even be fairer I can kinda remember you hating Audyssey because it messed with things too much. :mellow: :na:

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8 hours ago, Red Spade Audio said:

Your amp has a dedicated line out. You are best to use this and you can also attach an EQ device such as MiniDSP 2x4.

 

Speaker level inputs are a serious disadvantage as they eliminate the possibility of EQ. The only reason to use them is where you have no option to get a line level signal. In many situations this will exclude the possibility of getting better bass than your main speakers. But to answer the question, high level inputs have a very high impedance, meaning you can connect them in parallel to whichever is most convenient - the terminals you use to the speakers, or in fact the speaker terminals if they are closer to the sub.

Thanks Paul, dedicated sub line out it is.

That MiniDSP looks like a good little unit and was about to ask about the info required to adjust EQ but was answered below.:thumb:

Something for me to consider when I eventually download and learn to use REW:baby: 

 

7 hours ago, Satanica said:

I'm thinking for @Rustee a MiniDSP 2x4 or MiniDSP 2x4 HD might be a too bigger ask initially.

Don't get me wrong I think they're great and have one myself utilised as a crossover between mains and sub-woofer(s).

But one needs to use REW or some other measuring software for time-alignment and EQ.

Maybe just hire Red Spade Audio to sort it all out for you from the start. :)

 

 

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8 hours ago, Red Spade Audio said:

Next we add in some EQ to get the sub flat. Sure, we could do this with the speaker above, but the amount of EQ required is excessive and kills headroom. Most people prefer bass that measures at a higher SPL level than the midrange. This is what we can achieve with just one sub in the right place with EQ.

This is impressive, how user friendly is the miniDSP app for a beginner like myself? I'm guessing the hardest part is acquiring and interpreting the info from REW.

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8 minutes ago, Rustee said:

This is impressive, how user friendly is the miniDSP app for a beginner like myself? I'm guessing the hardest part is acquiring and interpreting the info from REW.

 

You are correct!  Unfortunately.  :(

 

3 hours ago, Satanica said:

 

But think of the most common setup of an audiophile, a two-channel setup which is most likely going to have an input from a DAC of some sort and/or a turntable.

They don't want their precious and pure analog signal converted to digital, then messed with and then converted back to analog again.

 

 

4 hours ago, Satanica said:

 

It looks good, but puts the signal through an extra D/A conversion which will mess with the head of most audiophiles.

 

 

That's what I thought - and was afraid of - until I actually had to use a miniDSP unit (which sits after my preamp and before my active speakers plus new subs).  The miniDSP unit provides 3-way XOs for my mains ... plus the sub/main XO and delays.

 

I cannot notice any degradation of my phono system - compared to the previous environment which had:

  • analogue 3-way active XOs
  • but no subs (and no room-mode DSP).

On the contrary ... the plusses far outweigh the negatives (if there really are some, in terms of digitising my phono signal).

 

 

Regards,

Andy

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rustee said:

This is impressive, how user friendly is the miniDSP app for a beginner like myself? I'm guessing the hardest part is acquiring and interpreting the info from REW.

MiniDSP units in terms of running the software, is very easy to use. They are quite intuitive and I'd say 90% of people reading this would find it's not too difficult.

 

Learning how to use REW might be a little more difficult - there is more to learn, more than can go wrong. But there is a support forum for it, so with a little patience, it's not too difficult.

 

You can work through all these things if you have the patience and the interest. The real challenge is a matter of expertise and experience. It's certainly not beyond the capability of a passionate audio nerd to jump all the hurdles and eventually get to a result that knocks their socks off! But in my experience there is one or two things that holds back most people - either the challenge exceeds their patience or they want to compromise in some way.

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On 13/11/2017 at 9:25 PM, Rustee said:

Funny you say that, I was recently gob smacked at the sound quality watching War of the apes at the Shellharbour cinemas, enjoyed the sound more than the movie just quietly!

And yes hopefully my budget will allow me to hear the low level deep  tones that I may be missing at the moment.

As a heads up a 20year old good quality but yet budget sub I had can outdo in homely surroundings the kind of low bas get in cinemas. It’s actually not such a big ask as commercial theatres are quite large spaces and they don’t try to do bass any lower than around 30-40 hz and in any sort of quantity as would disturb adjoining buildings /businesses or other theatres in a multi plex

 

a good quality $1k sub today will bring a big smile for HT duties

 

2ch duties are a more demanding requirement and thing like inadequate setup and integration with mains and placement in the room will become obvious with sub soon feeling out of place.

 

ps re the dream sub have pers experience with it. I can confidently say just about any sub can buy will improve on it.

 

@Rustee I see you are likely going to be lost and dragged down the gurgler which I hope not. Certainly hope not overwhelmed !

 

as complex as sub setup and integration can be it also at a very basic level doesn’t need have to be. We have a lot of tools these days to make life easy, many of us even just used our ears back in the past. So doesn’t have to be all so hard or need 101 things to get right.

 

But there are some crucial basics. No 1 with subs is location. Location location location...Location of sub, vs mains vs main listening position. The article below from Greg borrowman might help with this aspect,

 

 

http://www.avhub.com.au/features/hi-fi/subwoofer-placement-394396

 

and further article to help with getting head around the controls typically get on a sub.

 

http://www.avhub.com.au/features/hi-fi/how-to-set-subwoofer-controls-405267

 

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8 hours ago, Red Spade Audio said:

MiniDSP units in terms of running the software, is very easy to use. They are quite intuitive and I'd say 90% of people reading this would find it's not too difficult.

 

Learning how to use REW might be a little more difficult - there is more to learn, more than can go wrong. But there is a support forum for it, so with a little patience, it's not too difficult.

Thanks again Paul. Does the REW software and measurement mic come supplied with the MiniDSP? I thought I seen this somewhere flicking around. I know REW is free anyway, just wondering if the supplied mic is acceptable to use or is this something else I'd need to get.

 

8 hours ago, Red Spade Audio said:

You can work through all these things if you have the patience and the interest. The real challenge is a matter of expertise and experience. It's certainly not beyond the capability of a passionate audio nerd to jump all the hurdles and eventually get to a result that knocks their socks off! But in my experience there is one or two things that holds back most people - either the challenge exceeds their patience or they want to compromise in some way.

While the passion is there, my patience is good. Pretty excited to play with this just might need to wait a bit until my wife forgets the 1k I'm about to spend on a sub....unless I find a good used one.

 

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13 hours ago, :) al said:

2ch duties are a more demanding requirement and thing like inadequate setup and integration with mains and placement in the room will become obvious with sub soon feeling out of place.

Thanks for your wise words @:) al. This ^^ is exactly what I don't want. I don't want the sub to drown my speakers in bass or have obvious placement if possible. I want it to blend in with my speakers to provide a balanced yet enjoyable listening experience. I really don't want to lose that crisp punchiness I have now. I want I want I want haha

 

13 hours ago, :) al said:

ps re the dream sub have pers experience with it. I can confidently say just about any sub can buy will improve on it.

haha ok I get the picture! So I won't lose hope if it doesn't knock my socks off then!

 

13 hours ago, :) al said:

But there are some crucial basics. No 1 with subs is location. Location location location...Location of sub, vs mains vs main listening position. The article below from Greg borrowman might help with this aspect,

 

 

http://www.avhub.com.au/features/hi-fi/subwoofer-placement-394396

 

and further article to help with getting head around the controls typically get on a sub.

 

http://www.avhub.com.au/features/hi-fi/how-to-set-subwoofer-controls-405267

Hopefully my space will allow adequate location being a fairly busy room.

I will definitely check those links out, thanks.:thumb:

Edited by Rustee
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39 minutes ago, Tony ray said:

Great thread you got going Rustee.

I love the quote from Paul,  ( the challenge exceeds there patience )  yeah that's me in a large nutshell.:baby:

Thanks @Tony ray, tell me about it! was not expecting this much discussion! I thought maybe a few replies and away I go. I have learnt so so much and have so much more to learn. The help here is amazing.

Haha yes that is a ripper. I'll soon find out where just how much patience I have! 

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It’s also good to know that in regards to having patience there are options out there as with products like mini dsp and computer software there are a million different configurations and can be a bit daunting but you have full control over it or there are fully automatic options like the antimode where you just set it up and forget and have limited control.

Edited by powerav
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2 hours ago, Tony ray said:

Great thread you got going Rustee.

I love the quote from Paul,  ( the challenge exceeds there patience )  yeah that's me in a large nutshell.:baby:

Me too, it becomes like 'work' and I glaze over. Unfortunately.

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3 hours ago, Rustee said:

Thanks again Paul. Does the REW software and measurement mic come supplied with the MiniDSP? I thought I seen this somewhere flicking around. I know REW is free anyway, just wondering if the supplied mic is acceptable to use or is this something else I'd need to get.

 

While the passion is there, my patience is good. Pretty excited to play with this just might need to wait a bit until my wife forgets the 1k I'm about to spend on a sub....unless I find a good used one.

 

 

REW is available as a free download (you can donate to the creator I believe but it's voluntary)

 

The makers of the MiniDSP units do offer a USB mic called a UMIK1 but the REW software is flexible enough to make a variety of choices when it comes to microphones. I have and use the UMIK1 and it is adequate for most of the room measurement tasks.

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