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advice about tube phono preamp


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Hi, I have valve pre and power amplifiers, now want to try a valve phono preamp priced under $700 or so. Currently using a Lehman audio black cube statement.

Have looked at the pro ject Tube Box ds and the Vincent PHO 700 so far, but haven't had a chance to listen to either. Any impressions on either of these or alternatives would be appreciated, cheers

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I don't like designs that throw a valve / tube  into the signal path just for the sake of it, especially when they run the tube starved from low power supply voltages.     

 

I did some quick searching, but can't find details of the 2 you mention, although the Vincent certainly looks like an opamp design with a valve thrown in.   Hopefully others can provide more details, I am sort of interested now too :) .

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I know what you mean, not that I have  a lot of listening experience with valve phono preamps, but the all valve ones are more expensive. they would be my first choice but sadly money is an object these days... the vincent and project seem to do some things I like, judging by the reviews

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Pretty sure the Project Tube Box range are 'hybrid'. 

Personally I have no problem.  The tubes are apparently on the output side.  I have a Tube box DS2 and along with the flexible settings the tubes used do also make a difference when swapped.  Adds another aspect to 'fine tune' or, 'fiddle about', depending on your view , haha.

 

I've got 2 pairs of 12ax7/Ecc83 that they use which I'll be selling.  ( Current Tung-Sol and Russian Rocket (Mil Spec) if you want.)

 

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2 minutes ago, eman said:

Pretty sure the Project Tube Box range are 'hybrid'. 

Personally I have no problem.  The tubes are apparently on the output side. 

 

 

Hopefully they are actually a gain stage and not just cathode followers on the output (which means the real usefulness is even less in terms of sound).  

 

 

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6 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

Hopefully they are actually a gain stage and not just cathode followers on the output (which means the real usefulness is even less in terms of sound).  

 

 

You would have to research that elsewhere if it's important to you.  I just know there is a tube swap sound change.

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5 minutes ago, eman said:

You would have to research that elsewhere if it's important to you.  I just know there is a tube swap sound change.

 

It's only important to me from the aspect of someone who wants to get the true tube experience.   Throwing a tube in a circuit, mostly for marketing reasons,  won't get there.   As the OP already has a tube pre and power amp,   it won't sound all that different I expect, compared with a solid state phono into the same setup.

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All the reviews I have seen say that rolling the tubes in these, admittedly hybrid phono preamps ,makes a significant difference.

I've heard noticeable differences rolling tubes in my pre and power amps. I know very little about the fine details of electronics, so have to rely on my hearing,but I have used tube preamp with ss power amp and vice versa, and have found both of those combinations more pleasing than ss alone, so i guess it comes down to listening.

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5 minutes ago, Artbrisbane said:

All the reviews I have seen say that rolling the tubes in these, admittedly hybrid phono preamps ,makes a significant difference.

I've heard noticeable differences rolling tubes in my pre and power amps. I know very little about the fine details of electronics, so have to rely on my hearing,but I have used tube preamp with ss power amp and vice versa, and have found both of those combinations more pleasing than ss alone, so i guess it comes down to listening.

 

It always comes down to listening, and yes, even small changes at the start of signal chain, such as in a phono preamp, can be quite audible by the time you hear them.

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5 minutes ago, Artbrisbane said:

You're right, it won't be a true tube experience, maybe there's an affordable ( for me) all tube phono preamp out there?

That would be nice.  Yes, I was just concerned that you basically have the 'tube' experience' so why not keep it pure.  One of the nicest systems I have is all triode class A single ended from phono preamp to power output. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Artbrisbane said:

Hi, I have valve pre and power amplifiers, now want to try a valve phono preamp priced under $700 or so. Currently using a Lehman audio black cube statement.

Have looked at the pro ject Tube Box ds and the Vincent PHO 700 so far, but haven't had a chance to listen to either. Any impressions on either of these or alternatives would be appreciated, cheers

 

The Black Cube is a pretty good-sounding phono stage.  If you want an all-tube phono stage that sounds better than the Black Cube ... I suggest you will have to pay far more than what a ProJect Tube Box or the Vincent PHO 700 costs.  See if you can get to hear (preferably by a direct comparison with your BC) @lovetube's tube phono stage - Duc, do you have any customers in Brisbane?

 

If you can't afford that - then I suggest you stick with the BC.  :)

 

Andy

 

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1 minute ago, andyr said:

 

The Black Cube is a pretty good-sounding phono stage.  If you want an all-tube phono stage that sounds better than the Black Cube ... I suggest you will have to pay far more than what a ProJect Tube Box or the Vincent PHO 700 costs.  See if you can get to hear (preferably by a direct comparison with your BC) @lovetube's tube phono stage - Duc, do you have any customers in Brisbane?

 

If you can't afford that - then I suggest you stick with the BC.  :)

 

Andy

 

i don't think so. only in NSW

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What cartridge and what is the output level?

 

I personally think you'll need more $$ for an all valve phono. Yes they sound fantastic but you need to be careful about gain structure, which valves you use and how good is your LP collection. Noise can be a real pain in the neck as I've found they don't hide anything at all. 

 

I've tried an Aesthetix Rhea and NVO SPA II. 

 

 

 

 

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I'm just unaware of an all valve phono that'll handle low output MC carts within the stated budget. Hopefully the OP will chime in with what cart is in use. 

 

Edit: seems I didn't read properly. OP aint looking for an all valve phono! 

Edited by Gryffles
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Hmmm.... not too sure of motivations and one-upmanship here, after all, the right phono stage for the OP is the one that sounds best to him and that he can afford. I've heard it said that an expensive tube phono can be a disaster from the noise level and tube ringing point of views and I have had some experience of that from my own phono hunting days.

 

I do believe that to get really good valve sound costs a deal of money, but if you have it then of course you can buy sensational stuff (snobbery aside doesn't that apply to SS too?).

 

I ended up 'settling' for a Vincent Pho 701 simply because I realised I wasn't prepared to climb that exponential curve of cost against the minimal improvements I was hearing in so many stages I tried. I had intended to spend a couple of grand or more but decided to be practical. So glad I did, the 701 is a little beaut, whether the tubes doing plenty or bugger all, I don't really care. One thing though, the Pho 8 is reputed to be pretty special too (I didn't get to hear it) and considerably less than the 750 I paid for mine. Perhaps it's exactly the same if not as pretty, and the tube in mine IS superfluous. WHO KNOWS?

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Thanks for all the responses guys. It's always interesting to see where the discussion goes. It's been helpful and I appreciate the opinions and advice of everyone.

For the record, the cart is a Denon 103R, the TT is a rega planar 3, not up there  in cost, but can sound pretty decent.

It's interesting to hear the pitfalls of an all tube unit, and reassuring, since I won't be spending that sort of money anyway. I note the comment from Andyr, about needing to go higher up the food chain to get a significant improvement on the BC, since I haven't had the chance to make comparisons myself.

Rather than having to have an all tube system per se, I am curious about getting more of the soundstaging, mid range magic and tonal beauty I'm getting at present just with a chord ex dac and jriver, and would expect more of with analogue.I also note that I need to consider the quality of my record collection, most of which need a good clean, which means investing in a  cleaner.

I will try to find  somewhere local to listen to one of the units I mentioned initially, perhaps arrange to take my BC in to compare. Not ideal, but if there are significant differences I should  be able to hear them in any revealing system.

Thanks again guys, cheers

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Some companies have in the past ,including audio research have used a step up transformers to go into a mm tube phono stage,to boost the signal in a silent manner,they can cost from hundreds to thousands ,but used well is a great alternative ,to get noise free gain in a tube phono stage, 

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19 hours ago, Gryffles said:

 

Edit: seems I didn't read properly. OP aint looking for an all valve phono! 

 

 

See OP below.

 

On 11/5/2017 at 11:32 PM, Artbrisbane said:

 

Hi, I have valve pre and power amplifiers, now want to try a valve phono preamp priced under $700 or so.

 

 

Seems pretty clear to me he does (want to try an all-valve phono stage)!

 

Note: "all-valve" phono stages typically have MM gain ... the extra gain required for MC use comes from a SUT (as colinm1 posted).

 

Andy

 

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1 hour ago, andyr said:

 

 

Note: "all-valve" phono stages typically have MM gain ... the extra gain required for MC use comes from a SUT (as colinm1 posted).

 

 

 

Exactly right, and the technology to achieve it is  rock solid and known since at least the 50s maybe earlier.    The basic circuit published in the RCA receiving tube manual works great, and with a few cheap mods,  will blow away most any SS amp at the same price (yeah ok, IMHO) . 

Talking about price, it is not that that expensive to build one.  No expensive output transformers needed, just a cheaper power transformer (low current) and a few 12AX7 or other dual triode valves of your choice.  Outrageous prices are charged unnecessarily IMO .   They SHOULD be within the budget stated by the OP.  Certainly I see a few on alibaba and maybe ebay well within the range.  Might be well worth a try.

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1 hour ago, aussievintage said:

 

Exactly right, and the technology to achieve it is  rock solid and known since at least the 50s maybe earlier.

 

 

Does the fact that it's known "since at least the 50s" make it an any more valid circuit than a transistor circuit which dates from the 60s?  :P

 

1 hour ago, aussievintage said:

 

The basic circuit published in the RCA receiving tube manual works great, and with a few cheap mods,  will blow away most any SS amp at the same price (yeah ok, IMHO).

 

 

Yes, IYHO!  :lol:   The quality of the output coupling caps makes a significant difference - so, in both ss and tube phono stages, do they use $3 Wimas ... or $200 Duelunds/Jupiters/Sonicap Platinums?

 

1 hour ago, aussievintage said:

Talking about price, it is not that that expensive to build one.  No expensive output transformers needed, just a cheaper power transformer (low current) and a few 12AX7 or other dual triode valves of your choice.  Outrageous prices are charged unnecessarily IMO.

 

True - but if the "outrageous price" includes using the output caps I listed above ... then maybe it's not such a ripoff!  :)

 

And re. "low current" ... yes, phono stages use low currents - so theory says a 50VA power transformer is sufficient.  But it will sound much better - based on my experience (and that of Mike Kontor, with his Phantom Audio phono stage) - with a 150VA power transformer!  :ohmy:

 

1 hour ago, aussievintage said:

 

Certainly I see a few on alibaba and maybe ebay well within the range.  Might be well worth a try.

 

 

So you're suggesting he buys a few of these cheapies ... just to see if they sound better than his Black Cube?  :angry:

 

Andy

 

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