Seeking home theatre speaker/sub advice

[bugster70]

Hi everyone, we’re building a new home and my wife has allowed me to turn the ‘nice’ living room into a multi-purpose room that’ll double up as a home theatre. I’m new here and have already asked some questions about my proposed screen and projector combo, but I wanted to ask some questions about speakers and subwoofers too. One of my wife’s conditions of agreement was that the room has to look like a living room first and foremost. This basically means in-wall speakers (and no fixed screen). The room will be about 3.8m x 5.5m with no real limitations on speaker placement (and the room will be able to be closed off completely with cavity sliding doors).

 

I’ve already had some initial feedback that the Paradigm Pro series speakers I’m leaning towards will serve well for home theatre duties but these aren’t locked in yet – so if anyone has any suggestions for better alternatives in this price bracket I’d be keen to hear about it. Somebody did mention Krix but they looked to me to be more expensive for comparable speakers (I’m getting a reasonably good deal on the Paradigms). If I go with the Paradigms, I’ll get some Dynamat En-Wall and Dynabox enclosures to serve as backboxes to make the most of the speakers (and to give them some protection from dust, bugs, etc).

 

Current thinking is that I’d love a Dolby Atmos system (I already have a Yamaha Aventage RX-A3060 receiver ready to go), so I’m looking at 5 in-wall speakers (Paradigm Pro P80-IW) and 4 in-ceiling speakers (Paradigm Pro P80-R). All will be 8” versions with backboxes. I think this is what they call a 5.1.4 set up??? The plan is to have the rear surrounds in the back wall facing forwards, and four overhead speakers with pairs set slightly in front and slightly behind the viewing/listening area (which should end up being about 1.5m off the back wall). Is there a better way of setting up the speakers?

 

Then there’s the sub. I currently have an old Yamaha YST-SW800 unit. It’s supposed to have an 800W (or was it 1,000W?) amp and go down to 18Hz (but, in typical Yamaha fashion, that was at -10dB, so not exactly real world!). Whilst I’ve been very happy with the way this sub has performed over the years (and was initially blown away by it), it doesn’t have that ‘chest slam’ ability of the bigger/better subs. I’m still doing battle with the wife about being able to upgrade this (she sees no need to do so) but am looking for advice that would suit my room/match the other speakers. I’d LOVE something like an SVS PB13 Ultra, but would this be overkill for my application? I probably couldn’t justify buying a new one of those (I think they’re $3.5K new) but could look for a used one if that was what I decided on. But, if I was willing to spend up to $2K on a new sub, what type of unit would be a decent upgrade from the Yamaha? It’d be primarily for home theatre (which is why I was looking at the ported rather than the sealed SVS) but would use it for occasional music too.

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts, there seems to be a huge amount of knowledge and experience here and I’m looking forward to learning heaps!

[Satanica]

No such thing as overkill.

 

http://www.deephzaudio.com/Specials.html

PowerSound XV30F SE

[Tony ray]

Agree with Satanica about the PSA and overkill. I have a SVS PB13U but got it when it was 2k. Now they seem over priced compared to the PSA range.

 

Edit. that's a good price for the XV30F SE. Hard to beat that.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Tony ray

[bugster70]

Thanks @Satanica and @Tony ray

 

"No such thing as overkill", I love it! And that's why I asked this question here, I have so much to learn - I'd never heard of PowerSound but that sub seems to get really good reviews, so thanks for the steer.

 

Also had no idea that the PB13 Ultra was once available for $2K - how on earth can they justify an increase from $2K to $3.5K (that's a 75% rise)?! I've seen people asking close to (and sometimes more than) $2K for second hand PB13 Ultras, they must be laughing.

 

So, assuming for now that these two subwoofers (SVS PB13 Ultra and PSA XV30 FSE) can be had for the same price, is one going to be any better than the other? I know that's a subjective question, but would I expect people to be split fairly evenly into two camps or is one obviously a superior product to the other? On paper they look to me (a novice) to be fairly similar, with SVS perhaps boasting a slightly better finish.

Edited October 23, 2017 by bugster70

[Tony ray]

Yes I got a great buy as it was the last American Cherry one so Pete from Deep hz knocked 300 bucks off it. Not long after that the price just kept rising in Australia but remained the same in the US.

The SVS has the better driver but only one and yes the finish is nice but I would find it hard to separate them. I would be happy with either.

Those ex demo PSA XV30 FSE with 5 yr warranty are a great buy. I think that's delivered to.

[Satanica]

Great comparison here: http://www.deephzaudio.com/Power Sound V1500 product page.html

 

[jamiebosco]

You can go to databass and compare the 2  http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=55&mset=55

Under 20hz the SVS PB13 has the (slight) advantage , above 40hz the PSA XV30 has a (fairly significant ) advantage

 

If the 2 were the same price I'd take the SVS everyday, it looks great, has tonnes of low distortion output , near bulletproof limiters and SVS has truly fantastic customer service.

But the demo PSA XV30 for $2k vs a PB13 for around $3.5K ?  No brainer, PSA in a heartbeat (if you can fit it in your room)

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by jamiebosco

[Satanica]

29 minutes ago, jamiebosco said:

But the demo PSA XV30 for $2k vs a PB13 for around $3.5K ?  No brainer, PSA in a heartbeat (if you can fit it in your room)

It's a PSA XV30F SE.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Satanica

[jamiebosco]

1 minute ago, Satanica said:

It's a PowerSound XV30F SE.

I know, I was just abbreviating Power-Sound-Audio to PSA as that's what their commonly referred to on most forums

I was looking at getting 2 of the XV30SE's about 12 months ago but they were just too big for my room

[Satanica]

8 minutes ago, jamiebosco said:

I know, I was just abbreviating Power-Sound-Audio to PSA as that's what their commonly referred to on most forums

I was looking at getting 2 of the XV30SE's about 12 months ago but they were just too big for my room

I was referring to the model, not the make.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Satanica

[hopefullguy]

i have 2 of those yammy sw800... as with many sub makers they advertise the peak (or guessed peak) that yammy has a 250w rms amp with a peak in reality of about 400w?. the 2 work well together vs the bigger yammy sw1500 i originally had and sold.

 

anyway what sub are you getting? recently there were 2 pre svs pb2000 for sale on ex dtv forums/stereonet around $600 each.. 2 subs are better than 1.

[bugster70]

12 hours ago, hopefullguy said:

i have 2 of those yammy sw800... as with many sub makers they advertise the peak (or guessed peak) that yammy has a 250w rms amp with a peak in reality of about 400w?. the 2 work well together vs the bigger yammy sw1500 i originally had and sold.

 

anyway what sub are you getting? recently there were 2 pre svs pb2000 for sale on ex dtv forums/stereonet around $600 each.. 2 subs are better than 1.

I don't think Yamaha subs are bad, but they do tend to fudge their numbers a bit. As I said, I've been pretty happy with the performance of my SW800 to date but want something with more grunt for the new setup. Don't think I could persuade the wife to have two subs in the room, so looking for a good single unit. The PSA XV30F SE does sound like it'd fit the bill, but it's a monster compared to my current unit (will take some persuading I think!). The price of the ex-demo is good, but still 'only' a saving of $250 off their normal price, so I don't feel I need to rush off and buy it right now.

 

I was hoping to find a used SVS (preferably a PB13 Ultra) for sale somewhere and still have a bit of time, so might wait and see what happens. But these two are currently top of my list at the moment, unless I come across something else as I learn more from the guys here...

[hopefullguy]

you will need to be very patient. i have only seen 2 svs ultra in the last year at proper 2nd hand pricing. as for psa same thing. people just dont sell these unless they really really have to.

[bugster70]

Well, nobody’s yet said I’m mad to be going with the Paradigm in-wall speakers so I guess that’s a good sign. I’m now thinking about sub placement. I know I said there weren’t any real limitations on my speaker placement, but the sub will definitely have to go into one of the corners (wife won’t tolerate it any more prominent). I know higher frequencies are directional and that bass is much less so, but I was wondering if it’s a no-no to place the sub in one of the back corners of the room?

 

According to Paradigm, the P80-IW speakers I’m thinking of go down to 55Hz. Is there a rule of thumb about where I should set the sub cut-off? And, at that level, would I notice that the sub was in the back corner – and even if I did, does it matter??? It’s just that in most of the pics I’ve seen of members’ set ups, the sub seems to be at the front (and often between the front two speakers instead of outside them, as mine would if I placed it in a front corner).

[jamiebosco]

The PSA is very large, I would guess most wives would consider it prominent no matter where it was placed in a room. Perhaps build a similar sized box out of some cardboard boxes and place it where you're  considering putting it. 

Maybe 2 smaller SVS SB2000's would be less "obvious". May help even out the bass as well. 

 

Most well designed subs will handle 80-100hz and under better than the inwalls ever could so I'd start around there. The SB2000's are ruler flat out to 200hz so no problems there. From memory the XV30FSE is flat out till about 180hz as well. 

[bugster70]

That's something to consider, thanks @jamiebosco, I wonder whether my wife would prefer two mid-sized boxes or one huge one??? But if I went for, say, two SVS SB2000s, would they provide the same visceral/'chest slam' impact as a single PSA XV30F SE? I have no doubt the SVS ones will provide tighter bass and would probably be far superior for music, but as I keep saying I'm not a true connoisseur like many of you are and most of the time I'd be using it for movies (and my main aim is for more impact than my current YST-SW800).

[hopefullguy]

some reading for you..

in my ht room i have a velodyne 15" paired with a yammy sw800 10" independent set up thru denon 4311.. much better running even these 2 mis matched subs than 1 sub. better "spread" of bass thru the room.. 2 subs much better than 1 imo.

Edited October 24, 2017 by hopefullguy

[muriwai]

If you are tight for "foot print"then do consider the PC13 subs from Pete,have 2 of them(and 4 others)in a similar sized room,they are down firing and certainly have some "punch"
What area are you in?
I'm outer east Melbourne and happy to show you and you can look my room for inspiration/ideas
Cheers Muri

[jamiebosco]

2 hours ago, bugster70 said:

That's something to consider, thanks @jamiebosco, I wonder whether my wife would prefer two mid-sized boxes or one huge one??? But if I went for, say, two SVS SB2000s, would they provide the same visceral/'chest slam' impact as a single PSA XV30F SE? I have no doubt the SVS ones will provide tighter bass and would probably be far superior for music, but as I keep saying I'm not a true connoisseur like many of you are and most of the time I'd be using it for movies (and my main aim is for more impact than my current YST-SW800).

I don't think that even 2 x SB2000's would match the output of 1 x  XV30FSE anywhere in their passband. Whether or not you will actually use the extra output depends on how loud you want to watch movies. A single PSA xv30 would be capable of THX reference level playback in that size room, the SB2000s would be great if your usual maximum  MV is in the -5 to -10dB from reference level range (or less of course! ). SVS has near bulletproof limiters built into their DSP, so the subs output will just compress if you push them beyond that. 

I think 2 SB2000's in your fairly small room would be enough for most people and would likely be a significant step up in bass quality and quantity. 

In a 3.8m x 5.5m sealed room. 

 

[Snoopy8]

3 hours ago, bugster70 said:

That's something to consider, thanks @jamiebosco, I wonder whether my wife would prefer two mid-sized boxes or one huge one??? But if I went for, say, two SVS SB2000s, would they provide the same visceral/'chest slam' impact as a single PSA XV30F SE? I have no doubt the SVS ones will provide tighter bass and would probably be far superior for music, but as I keep saying I'm not a true connoisseur like many of you are and most of the time I'd be using it for movies (and my main aim is for more impact than my current YST-SW800).

For WAF, definitely 2 small boxes. Also, 2 subs will allow you to get more even bass to make a movie more enjoyable.

[bugster70]

Wow, thanks everyone, that's been some incredibly useful advice and I'm definitely thinking much more carefully about this now. Thanks @hopefullguy for the videos, I found them informative, easy to understand and think they (along with others' advice) have convinced me that two small subs is a better way to go than one large one. I also take @jamiebosco's point about not actually using the output of something like a PSA XV30F SE. By my wife's standards, I play my movies loud - but I'm sure that by your standards it'd sound fairly quiet, and certainly nowhere near THX reference levels! So I think this has persuaded me that two small subs in my size (sealed) room will be more than sufficient (as long as they go down to at least 20Hz, which most/all the SVS options seem to anyway). I think I'm also convinced that a ported sub is best for me (I like to hear/feel the bass at lower volumes and having super tight bass for music isn't as important to me).

 

So, if I ended up going for two small subs, is there an ideal spot to place them? Both at the front (in the corners), or could one go one go in a front corner and the other in a back corner?

 

@muriwai I really appreciate your offer to come and check out your setup, that's very kind/generous. If I were in Melbourne I'd probably jump at the chance, but I'm a few hundred kilometres away in Canberra! Footprint isn't such an issue, the room's reasonably big and there are no other speakers taking up floor space - it's more the overall size of the things. I suspect the wife would prefer a couple of low boxes rather than tall cylinders.

[hopefullguy]

placement depends on room variables.. my 15" is at the front just left of centre (due to old disused fireplace) my 10" is at the back of the room in line with just right of centre of the same fire place. this was by far the best placement in my specific room.

 

time and testing will find your best/most practical spots.

 

agree as posted you just wont use all that psa sub can do.. 2 smaller pb1000 or sb2000 will fit better and make others happier.. you know who

Edited October 25, 2017 by hopefullguy

[jamiebosco]

Harman have done a LOT of wor

2 hours ago, bugster70 said:

Wow, thanks everyone, that's been some incredibly useful advice and I'm definitely thinking much more carefully about this now. Thanks @hopefullguy for the videos, I found them informative, easy to understand and think they (along with others' advice) have convinced me that two small subs is a better way to go than one large one. I also take @jamiebosco's point about not actually using the output of something like a PSA XV30F SE. By my wife's standards, I play my movies loud - but I'm sure that by your standards it'd sound fairly quiet, and certainly nowhere near THX reference levels! So I think this has persuaded me that two small subs in my size (sealed) room will be more than sufficient (as long as they go down to at least 20Hz, which most/all the SVS options seem to anyway). I think I'm also convinced that a ported sub is best for me (I like to hear/feel the bass at lower volumes and having super tight bass for music isn't as important to me).

 

So, if I ended up going for two small subs, is there an ideal spot to place them? Both at the front (in the corners), or could one go one go in a front corner and the other in a back corner?

 

@muriwai I really appreciate your offer to come and check out your setup, that's very kind/generous. If I were in Melbourne I'd probably jump at the chance, but I'm a few hundred kilometres away in Canberra! Footprint isn't such an issue, the room's reasonably big and there are no other speakers taking up floor space - it's more the overall size of the things. I suspect the wife would prefer a couple of low boxes rather than tall cylinders.

Harman have done a LOT of work on this. With  two subs either one each in the centre of the side walls or the centre of the front and back walls will give the best seat-to-seat bass consistency (ie. fairly flat bass that can be successfully EQ'd). You may need an AVR/Pre that allows for individual sub delay if using these configs for best results. Google Tod Welti multisubs PDF and have a read!

Contrary to popular belief you MAY also get the best results with both subs up front near the main speakers, which is also usually the most wife friendly.

Subwoofer101 (the guy in the videos posted above) had 2 SVS PB2000's on either side of his AV cabinet and he gets a nice flat response down to 14hz

 

Also have a read of this thread at AVS forum http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2867249-dual-seaton-submersive-hp-way.html

 

 

Edited October 25, 2017 by jamiebosco

[bugster70]

1 hour ago, jamiebosco said:

Also have a read of this thread at AVS forum http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2867249-dual-seaton-submersive-hp-way.html

Interesting read, thanks @jamiebosco - that guy is utterly fanatical about his bass, isn't he?! Jeez, having been convinced by Subwoofer101's argument that two (smaller) subs are better than one (large), I'm now having second thoughts having read this article. I'm sure two subs WOULD sound better than one if set up correctly, but I'm wondering if this is for people who are much fussier than I am. I probably shouldn't admit this here, but in each house I had my YST-SW800 I just plopped it in the most convenient spot (generally a corner) and away I went, no calibrating, testing, etc!

 

If my room turns out to be non-conventional in any way, and it becomes a chore to tune/place two subs properly to make the most out of them, I really do wonder whether I would be better off just going for a single large sub, even if it meant I never used it to its full potential (it'd be nice to have the headroom just in case). Something like an SVS or PSA is surely going to make my Yamaha sub sound pathetic by comparison, so am I thinking too much about this (given I've got pretty humble tastes)??? I just don't think I'm in your league!

[jamiebosco]

Yeah the PSA XV30FSE would absolutely decimate your Yamaha at every frequency, if you've been happy with the performance of the Yamy the PSA will almost certainly blow you away.