Perils of focusing too much on gear

[JSmith]

24 minutes ago, Happy said:

And, by the way, if you really care so much about music and not the gear at all join some music forum.......there are plenty out there.

Fair call.

 

JSmith 

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

 

40 minutes ago, JSmith said:

Both are pretty useless without each other... assuming one listens to music.

 

JSmith 

Our biggest faults:

1. Listening for the equipment and not to the music. I mean this on a daily basis - sometimes we have to evaluate the sound, but even then...
2. Ascribing values to the equipment that belong with the performance ("My system is musical")
3. Believing that we can improve on the artistic and technical aspects of all recordings if we can just find that special system (derived from point 2)

These are easy to fall into, because when equipment, the room, and suchlike, are changed, the sound we hear does. The thing to remember is that the recording hasn't.

3 hours ago, JSmith said:

I don't think I'd ever want to be referred to as an Audiophile... sounds creepy.

 

Much prefer audio enthusiast.

 

JSmith 

The problem for me with the term audiophile is that it implies liking "sound". I'm with those who put music at the centre of things. For me, one good system beats changing between lots of items of probably lesser equipment every few weeks.

[keyse1]

1 hour ago, Happy said:

There is no logical reason whatsoever. Some people seemingly revere the act of listening to music as if they're somehow saving the humanity or something by doing so, but that's just not the case. You're just having a bit of fun, that's all. And that's nothing different from having fun by acquiring gear or shoes. 

 

And, by the way, if you really care so much about music and not the gear at all join some music forum.......there are plenty out there.

That is kinda silly

logically great rock n roll bands sound great on any kind of playback system

and I have listened to them on everything from $40 portable record in 1970 to portable cassette on the back seat of a vdub before they had cassette players in them to 8 track tape players set up in a room to the $20 odd 000 system in my garage 

have never loved the records more or less on any of those systems

music is an emotional experience and for me the most “loveable” and endurable of all the art forms that I like over the decades

as for revering the act of listening and saving humanity too silly for words but music can and has in the past made me feel better over various times of my life and live music mixed with alcohol or other substances have been some of the more memorable experiences of my life outside the personal

this is not to disparage the stereo system or its importance because at every stage of my economic life I have bought thing above my pay scale

the people who place more importance on systems than music are the political equivalent of voting for personalities instead of policy so to speak

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by keyse1

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

1 hour ago, Happy said:

 Some people seemingly revere the act of listening to music as if they're somehow saving the humanity or something by doing so, but that's just not the case.

Philistine!

 

Good music (and it needn't be "great" music) does move me, and I suspect most people, in a way that the latest Lyra cartridge or a big amp with VU displays will never do. To me, that is a difference between the two: the point is that the equipment serves the music, not the other way around.

 

Probably won't save humanity though. If only it were that simple!

[Happy]

4 minutes ago, keyse1 said:

That is kinda silly

logically great rock n roll bands sound great on any kind of playback system

and I have listened to them on everything from $40 portable record in 1970 to portable cassette on the back seat of a vdub before they had cassette players in them to 8 track tape players set up in a room to the $20 odd 000 system in my garage 

have never loved the records more or less on any of those systems

music is an emotional experience and for me the most “loveable” and endurable of all the art forms that I like over the decades

as for revering the act of listening and saving humanity too silly for words but music can and has in the past made me feel better over various times of my life and live music mixed with alcohol or other substances have been some of the more memorable experiences of my life outside the personal

this is not to disparage the stereo system or its importance because at every stage of my economic life I have bought thing above my pay scale

the people who place more importance on systems than music are the political equivalent of voting for persoatstead of policy so to speak

 

there is nothing objective or logical in your arguments. i see that 'for you' subjectively it is silly, but that's just you and the like minded people's personal preference.

[Happy]

3 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

Philistine!

 

Good music (and it needn't be "great" music) does move me, and I suspect most people, in a way that the latest Lyra cartridge or a big amp with VU displays will never do. To me, that is a difference between the two: the point is that the equipment serves the music, not the other way around.

 

Probably won't save humanity though. If only it were that simple!

To you, yes. Nobody is arguing that. But escalating such personal experience to an objective/universal one is quite another thing. I'm not saying that's what you tried to say though

[Spinnergeoff]

As someone who gave up a fairly well-paid and secure job to start a record shop many years ago, I can honestly say that for me it's mainly about the music, and that I've listened to it and got hooked on it from the lowly origins of a mono transistor playing AM radio. But as a through-life experience the trying out and upgrading of gear has been fairly regular. After graduating to a full-on hifi and home theatre retail experience (but still selling discs as well) I've been able to try out so many things at so many price levels that I have an overall perspective. Source and amplifiers both matter, but I think speakers are the key. So now I'm retired that's what I put most effort into. Very interesting indeed.  

[Wimbo]

On 10/18/2017 at 11:01 AM, MLXXX said:

The incremental improvement of an elite turntable like the RP10 (over a cheaper alternative) may have been so slight as to be inaudible and yet it would have cost you more than 4K had you persisted in the bidding. 

Depends on what the cheaper alternative is. Otherwise, the difference can be enormous. If I have to sit down and listen to my vinyl collection on a cheap turntable, I won't listen to it. I'll go on Utube.

A lot of time, effort and money goes into acquiring a good library of vinyl and it should not be let down.

[Wimbo]

8 minutes ago, Spinnergeoff said:

Source and amplifiers both matter, but I think speakers are the key.

Get the source and amplifier right and you can play 100's of pairs of loudspeakers.

Best sound at the Doug Brady HIFI show back in the early 80's, was a LP12, AR SP8/D70 and a pair of 90 quid Mission 70's.

I remember one of the HIFI shows here back in the 80's where Ceto had a Sota with AR pre power and a small pair of white monitors,(Tablet size). Blew the pants off his demo later in the years that was using Betas.

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

30 minutes ago, Happy said:

To you, yes. Nobody is arguing that. But escalating such personal experience to an objective/universal one is quite another thing. I'm not saying that's what you tried to say though

Not objective (that would imply that the same music moves everyone) but it is, well, close to universal. Lenin was a self-declared exception, if I remember correctly.

[Happy]

4 minutes ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

Not objective (that would imply that the same music moves everyone) but it is, well, close to universal. Lenin was a self-declared exception, if I remember correctly.

1. you'd be surprised, as i was. but there are quite a few around.

 

2. ' in a way that the latest Lyra cartridge or a big amp with VU displays will never do' is absolutely subjective. many people do get seemingly excited over fancy new equipment oftentimes to such a degree that listening to some music may never achieve. it's just a matter of conceding it really, for people do feel bad about conceding it due to the popular view listening to music is holy while lusting after gear is abominable for some reason. 

[Spinnergeoff]

58 minutes ago, Wimbo said:

Get the source and amplifier right and you can play 100's of pairs of loudspeakers.

I knew I'd start an argument!

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

34 minutes ago, Happy said:

1. you'd be surprised, as i was. but there are quite a few around.

 

2. ' in a way that the latest Lyra cartridge or a big amp with VU displays will never do' is absolutely subjective. many people do get seemingly excited over fancy new equipment oftentimes to such a degree that listening to some music may never achieve. it's just a matter of conceding it really, for people do feel bad about conceding it due to the popular view listening to music is holy while lusting after gear is abominable for some reason. 

It won't be the same for all music either, but I continue to believe that great art works on a different level.

I don't believe that pursuing particular equipment is "abominable" and of course, collecting equipment may be just like collecting teacups or old CPU chips. And getting that rare amp is going to be different again. It's all OK.

[Happy]

Just now, Eggcup The Daft said:

It won't be the same for all music either, but I continue to believe that great art works on a different level.

I don't believe that pursuing particular equipment is "abominable" and of course, collecting equipment may be just like collecting teacups or old CPU chips. And getting that rare amp is going to be different again. It's all OK.

Personally I share the same view. But in our age there is no objective standard in that regard. Even if there still was, it's fast becoming less dominant than before. 

[JSmith]

Is this the right thread to suggest in a WP kind of way that all amplifiers sound the same?

 

 

 

... don't really see the difference TBH;

 

-phile

fʌɪl/

combining form

denoting a person or thing having a fondness for a specified thing.

 

enthusiast

ɪnˈθjuːzɪast,ɛnˈθjuːzɪast/

noun

a person who is very interested in a particular activity or subject

 

JSmith 

[sir sanders zingmore]

On 18/10/2017 at 12:22 PM, Ian McP said:

a quick look at your system cost vs your music collection cost ratio should for all intents and purposes classify you as either an audiophile or a music collector? Or happily both?

That equation doesn't really work in a world of streaming services 

[Monty]

Interesting discussion. 'Music first' and 'gear is a means to an end'. These lines get thrown around a bit. It's true for most people, I think, maybe even most stereo nerds. I'd say it's true for me. But I don't think it holds that it's the one right way. If some people are more focussed on the gear - sonics, technology, design, measurements, whatever - that's fine too. Neither approach is inherently good or bad. It's all mostly self-indulgent recreation/luxury consumption.

 

I also like the points made about streaming services challenging old ways of thinking about what is the 'right' balance of expenditure between gear and music. I like my largish collection of CDs and records, intend to keep it and will probably keep adding to it. But I think in a lot of ways it would make more sense to do most of one's listening via streaming - exploring far and wide - and augment this with a relatively small personal collection: stuff that's unavailable on streaming services, or is much better mastered, or is just a particular favourite or otherwise compelling package. 

[Happy]

14 minutes ago, Monty said:

 Neither approach is inherently good or bad. It's all mostly self-indulgent recreation/luxury consumption.

Sums up my point.

[Happy]

25 minutes ago, JSmith said:

Is this the right thread to suggest in a WP kind of way that all amplifiers sound the same?

 

 

 

... don't really see the difference TBH;

 

-phile

fʌɪl/

combining form

denoting a person or thing having a fondness for a specified thing.

 

enthusiast

ɪnˈθjuːzɪast,ɛnˈθjuːzɪast/

noun

a person who is very interested in a particular activity or subject

 

JSmith 

If you have to drag out a dictionary...

 

 

[Wimbo]

1 hour ago, Spinnergeoff said:

I knew I'd start an argument!

Nah, I'm not those blokes on the hill when we used to play tennis,

[Wimbo]

35 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

That equation doesn't really work in a world of streaming services 

Not in my world. And I'll keep it till I hit the flame.

[JSmith]

12 minutes ago, Happy said:

If you have to drag out a dictionary...

 

 

Audiophile - a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction.

 

Enthusiast - one who tends to become ardently absorbed in an interest

 

Ardently - Characterised by warmth of feeling typically expressed in eager zealous support or activity

 

... think I'll stick with enthusiast thanks.

 

If one tried to tell a new lady friend they were an audiophile... I can imagine the initial reaction.

 

Unfortunately anything "phile" has become rather tainted... don't you think?

 

JSmith 

[bzr]

7 hours ago, sjay said:

I took both at the same time

That'd be why you haven't felt the need to reply to all else in this thread then.... , you are indeed enlightened

[Wimbo]

37 minutes ago, Monty said:

Interesting discussion. 'Music first' and 'gear is a means to an end'. These lines get thrown around a bit. It's true for most people, I think, maybe even most stereo nerds. I'd say it's true for me. But I don't think it holds that it's the one right way. If some people are more focussed on the gear - sonics, technology, design, measurements, whatever - that's fine too. Neither approach is inherently good or bad. It's all mostly self-indulgent recreation/luxury consumption.

 

I also like the points made about streaming services challenging old ways of thinking about what is the 'right' balance of expenditure between gear and music. I like my largish collection of CDs and records, intend to keep it and will probably keep adding to it. But I think in a lot of ways it would make more sense to do most of one's listening via streaming - exploring far and wide - and augment this with a relatively small personal collection: stuff that's unavailable on streaming services, or is much better mastered, or is just a particular favourite or otherwise compelling package. 

Stanley Clarkes playing live on my system in the other room and I'm tapping my foot while typing. Bought that one the other day off @progladyte. Just orderd The Who's "Whos Next".

Dont need streaming, Still trying to get into the 80's and 90's.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Wimbo
Slow bugga

[Happy]

6 minutes ago, JSmith said:

Audiophile - a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction.

 

Enthusiast - one who tends to become ardently absorbed in an interest

 

Ardently - Characterised by warmth of feeling typically expressed in eager zealous support or activity

 

... think I'll stick with enthusiast thanks.

 

If one tried to tell a new lady friend they were an audiophile... I can imagine the initial reaction.

 

Unfortunately anything "phile" has become rather tainted... don't you think?

 

JSmith 

I fail to see how that makes any difference. By the dictionary definition you like to rely upon audiophile is an expression that not only captures your preference with specificity but also is one most widely used in the real world.

 

Not that your preference is any of my business of course

 

And I think you are imagining this lady’s reaction. Most people don’t really have any opinion. We’re a niche hobby anyway