Some questions about power cables

[Darren69]

39 minutes ago, 125dBmonster said:

@Zaphod Beeblebrox

Those connectors are "Weiland" about 10 bucks a piece. Not bad considering their connect quality/materials in the build

 

 

EDIT, will have a bag full at the Holton/SGR room at the HiFi Show on the weekend,  for those interested in a squiz 

 

Will have a squiz when I see you there mate. Interesting.

 

 

[Krispy Audio]

19 hours ago, 125dBmonster said:

Yep, for the better good of us all 

Problem is one time I built an amp once

the IEC failed to connect on initial commissioning because of a manufacturing fault (didn't take long to find), after then something better   had to be found with copper silver plated 20A sprung hollow barrel  pin union   rather than brass  IMHO

 

 

I can appreciate there are better termination methods (or going for a direct connection), but again >99% of people are not going to do this to their >99% of products that use an IEC connector. I've found some aftermarket plugs/jacks mate a lot tighter than others and so mechanically could present an improvement, not to mention varying terminal sizes and termination options. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

56 minutes ago, Krispy Audio said:

I can appreciate there are better termination methods (or going for a direct connection), but again >99% of people are not going to do this to their >99% of products that use an IEC connector. I've found some aftermarket plugs/jacks mate a lot tighter than others and so mechanically could present an improvement, not to mention varying terminal sizes and termination options. 

Thing is that some of the silly cables promoted are so monumentally expensive, that the owner could easily afford to either have the socket replaced with a properly engineered one (like the Neutrik) or even have the product re-terminated by a tech via a captive cable. Alarm bells should be ringing loud and clear when we see any IEC connector that uses gold plating. SILVER plating is, far and away, the best plating material for such purposes. 

[Bronal]

On 10/30/2017 at 3:38 PM, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 Even better, captive power leads are impervious to the faults introduced by IEC connectors.

I remember posting a thread several years ago suggesting that logically a high-quality captive cable would always be superior to a detachable cable.

 

I was jumped on from a great height.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

5 minutes ago, bronal said:

I remember posting a thread several years ago suggesting that logically a high-quality captive cable would always be superior to a detachable cable.

 

I was jumped on from a great height.

Not by me. Captive cables MUST be better. Logically and technically. Are they audibly superior? Only after the plug-in system has reached the end of it's useful life. When new, a plug-in system should sound no different to a captive lead. 

[Guest guru]

strangely i find IEC connections to be insanely reliable and entirely practical. I can change the sound, position and introduce new versions at will. silver plating at a thickness of 2 microns does not make a good connector when the base material could be rubbish, having a locking mechanism means that idiots not looking where they are going can't accidently disconnect said appliance whereas they can still have the plug fall out at the wall. choose your poison.

[Addicted to music]

46 minutes ago, guru said:

strangely i find IEC connections to be insanely reliable and entirely practical. I can change the sound, position and introduce new versions at will. silver plating at a thickness of 2 microns does not make a good connector when the base material could be rubbish, having a locking mechanism means that idiots not looking where they are going can't accidently disconnect said appliance whereas they can still have the plug fall out at the wall. choose your poison.

The picture is a single device that takes 2X 30A and a 32amp round pin plugs with locking bracket  is used and is a 9KW power consumption.   So the  weakest link is on this side of the plug, hence the additional bracket to secure it to the  machine.

The locking bracket is now on all devices that has similar power IEC  requirements.  They know that this is the weakest link in the power delivery.  You cannot move this device freely as its over 1000kg and will be in an area where no one goes apart from poor souls like me that has to maintain it.    On a 1.4kw office device with a standard 10A 240V IEC a client stressed out an IEC because they moved it to a position where they want it not realising they stressed the IEC plug out,  eventually the IEC connector on the machine end overheated and caught fire.  This is the main reason for the bracket.  However for audio equipment I don't think unless it's pure classA that the consumption wouldn't be anywhere near the max 2400W 

[Guest guru]

49 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

The picture is a single device that takes 2X 30A and a 32amp round pin plugs with locking bracket  is used and is a 9KW power consumption.   So the  weakest link is on this side of the plug, hence the additional bracket to secure it to the  machine.

The locking bracket is now on all devices that has similar power IEC  requirements.  They know that this is the weakest link in the power delivery.  You cannot move this device freely as its over 1000kg and will be in an area where no one goes apart from poor souls like me that has to maintain it.    On a 1.4kw office device with a standard 10A 240V IEC a client stressed out an IEC because they moved it to a position where they want it not realising they stressed the IEC plug out,  eventually the IEC connector on the machine end overheated and caught fire.  This is the main reason for the bracket.  However for audio equipment I don't think unless it's pure classA that the consumption wouldn't be anywhere near the max 2400W 

I love the drawing of a long bow in order to explain a point but seriously, a 1000kg printer and an idiot still come together to cause grief .

[Addicted to music]

32 minutes ago, guru said:

I love the drawing of a long bow in order to explain a point but seriously, a 1000kg printer and an idiot still come together to cause grief .

They don't normally move these, once installed they stay.   The bracket is there to ensure that IEC is mating properly.   If I open the covers up there are power strips that are screwed on.  

Ive seen a 30A 3 phase pcb designed in the 70s with spade connectors that went loose, overheated and destroyed the tracks on the pcb and then witness purple plasma jumping across the connector through its insulation onto the burnt tracks, just like you see at science works or in the movies.. 30A 3 phase is serious stuff!  

Edited:  as you can see from the picture, I've installed that bracket as per the installation instructions.  If an electrical fire occurs now, I have nothing to worry about, it will be  now in the hands of the manufacturer to explain why it's insufficient to the relavant investigating departments.  

Edited October 31, 2017 by Addicted to music

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

12 hours ago, guru said:

strangely i find IEC connections to be insanely reliable and entirely practical.

Practical, certainly. Reliable? Far from it. IEC connectors are the very worst mains connectors available. 

 

Quote

 

I can change the sound, position and introduce new versions at will.

You can do the same with captive leaded products and products that use any other kind of connector. However, with IEC connectors, continued re-insertions WILL cause the plug to suffer wear. This particularly applies to the nonsensically priced products that use gold plating, as the plating is very thin and very fragile. Silver plated connectors are plated thicker and silver is a more robust plating material anyway. 

 

Quote

 

silver plating at a thickness of 2 microns does not make a good connector when the base material could be rubbish

I agree. Fortunately, companies like Neutrik use only the very highest quality metals and plastics in their construction. Like all professional products, Neutrik fully and completely specifies their products in both construction and expected life-span. No dodgy and unproveable claims from Neutrik. Just data and fact. Including, I might add, the rating number of mating cycles. Do any of the over-hyped, gold plated IEC connector manufacturers specify the number of mating cycles?  

 

Quote

 

, having a locking mechanism means that idiots not looking where they are going can't accidently disconnect said appliance whereas they can still have the plug fall out at the wall. choose your poison.

Idiots will do what idiots do. Personally, I prefer good connections over over-priced, over-hyped nonsense. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[sir sanders zingmore]

Do ME amps have captive leads ?

[Guest]

On 10/30/2017 at 11:24 PM, Krispy Audio said:

I can appreciate there are better termination methods (or going for a direct connection), but again >99% of people are not going to do this to their >99% of products that use an IEC connector. I've found some aftermarket plugs/jacks mate a lot tighter than others and so mechanically could present an improvement, not to mention varying terminal sizes and termination options. 

Can appreciate that.

Just pointing out though there are better solutions.

I see it as an improvement over an expense/known weakest link in the chain, luckily I've kicked the habit obviously one of the very few.

Example, just picked up a Toroidy 2.5Kva Supreme Tx for a big amplifier project, will I use a $1 crappy mains connector, not on your nelly, it's going to be hard wired in 2,5mm csa

Edited October 31, 2017 by Guest

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

26 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

Do ME amps have captive leads ?

Some do, some don't. For the record: The ONLY reason Peter Stein fitted detachable power leads to some of his amps (the ME1400 and ME1500 never had them fitted, because that would be stupid) was because some dealers demanded it. Presumably, so they could make money from gullible customers, by selling them dodgy, over-priced power cables. Peter complied with that request, but refused to fit them to the ME1400 and ME1500 amplifiers, due to the extremely poor connection provided by IEC connectors. 

 

BTW: None of the choices made by Peter Stein change MY view on IEC connectors. They're still rubbish. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[Guest Muon N']

http://www.meamplifiers.com.au/images/ME580_Brochure.pdf

 

*shrug*

Edited October 31, 2017 by Muon N'

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

16 minutes ago, Noum said:

http://www.meamplifiers.com.au/images/ME580_Brochure.pdf

 

*shrug*

Yep. And it would be most instructive to ask the designer of that amplifier what he thinks of IEC connectors. @PonyTail is a regular here.  

Edited October 31, 2017 by Zaphod Beeblebrox

[Guest Muon N']

@Zaphod Beeblebrox

 

It was in response to the question asked by the other Trevor.

 

Cheers

Edit: I have no need to to ask the designer

Edited October 31, 2017 by Muon N'

[Happy]

40 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Some do, some don't. For the record: The ONLY reason Peter Stein fitted detachable power leads to some of his amps (the ME1400 and ME1500 never had them fitted, because that would be stupid) was because some dealers demanded it. Presumably, so they could make money from gullible customers, by selling them dodgy, over-priced power cables. Peter complied with that request, but refused to fit them to the ME1400 and ME1500 amplifiers, due to the extremely poor connection provided by IEC connectors. 

 

BTW: None of the choices made by Peter Stein change MY view on IEC connectors. They're still rubbish. 

Any other compromises he made?

[sir sanders zingmore]

44 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Yep. And it would be most instructive to ask the designer of that amplifier what he thinks of IEC connectors. @PonyTail is a regular here.  

I'm really struggling to see the problem here. For non-faulty IECs there is zero audible difference. 

The overwhelming majority of IECs are not faulty and never will be. 

It's a non-issue. 

[muzzagruzz]

19 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

I'm really struggling to see the problem here. For non-faulty IECs there is zero audible difference. 

The overwhelming majority of IECs are not faulty and never will be. 

It's a non-issue. 

The fault lies with the design of the connector. It's not secure and never will be as secure as a captive lead. That is the problem! 

 

I will more than likely have my ME amps - 550 and 240 - converted from the crappy IEC to captive leads. I may even consider having the Luxman L-507uX and D-05u SACD player converted as well one day - shock, horror.  (all with Australian approved plugs and leads, nothing fancy and useless). 

Edited October 31, 2017 by muzzagruzz

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

I'm really struggling to see the problem here. For non-faulty IECs there is zero audible difference. 

The overwhelming majority of IECs are not faulty and never will be. 

It's a non-issue. 

Probably right, but there comes a time when you go from using a carburetor to fuel injection  

As usual there is "choice" particularly if there is no accountant or shop at the back of the designer/engineer stage of a high power non compromise component build

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

40 minutes ago, Happy said:

Any other compromises he made?

All products include some compromises. Every single one. Compromises are usually more pronounced as the intended retail price of a product is reduced. This could launch into a very, very long discussion, but I will list a couple of compromises made with the ME550-II, relative to the ME550.

 

* The ME550 employed a low input impedance, the ME550-II was released with a higher input impedance, so it would mate with inferior quality sources. 

* The ME550 employed a very sophisticated, closed-loop, optical tacho-feedback speed control system for the fan which used an AC motor. The ME550-II used a much less sophisticated, open loop, DC fan.

 

These two compromises were made in order to keep costs low and to satisfy the needs of owners who wanted to operate the ME550-II with poorly designed sources. That said, due to other improvements, the ME500-II is a significantly better sounding amp than the ME550. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

32 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

I'm really struggling to see the problem here. For non-faulty IECs there is zero audible difference. 

The overwhelming majority of IECs are not faulty and never will be. 

It's a non-issue. 

My point, throughout this thread, has been to make the point that over-priced, overhyped IEC connectors (and their accompanying cables) are a waste of money. The money wasted on such connections can be better spent elsewhere. 

[Guest guru]

When you choose an IEC socket manufactured by the same company that manufactures the IEC plug in a no compromise situation, it's possible to have a high degree of integrity in the connection that takes considerable force to insert and remove whilst at the same time improving base materials and conductivity. I do this type of work all of the time and have never been asked to retrofit the previous existing arrangement. All customers were very pleased with the outcomes and as I am not cheap, all customers happily donated a kidney in order to fund their IEC upgrade desires. Note: Power cables require major organ donations.

[muzzagruzz]

Neither an IEC or power cable upgrade will derive any sonic benefit. Interesting note at the end of your paragraph, 'power cables require major organ donations'. What that really means is that anyone purchasing expensive IEC and/or power cables is donating money to the manufacturer, who will no doubt be laughing at the gullibility of the consuming public as he/she wafts along the road in their shiny Merc. 

[Addicted to music]

9 minutes ago, guru said:

When you choose an IEC socket manufactured by the same company that manufactures the IEC plug in a no compromise situation, it's possible to have a high degree of integrity in the connection that takes considerable force to insert and remove whilst at the same time improving base materials and conductivity. I do this type of work all of the time and have never been asked to retrofit the previous existing arrangement. All customers were very pleased with the outcomes and as I am not cheap, all customers happily donated a kidney in order to fund their IEC upgrade desires. Note: Power cables require major organ donations.

Refer to the quote  below it's spot on 100% 

I don't care what BS vodoo fancy materials are use,  it's this!   It goes for the same to spade connections too.  And no, you don't have to pay a fortune by organ donations.  In time the IEC will loose effectiveness in its connection.

32 minutes ago, muzzagruzz said:

The fault lies with the design of the connector. It's not secure and never will be as secure as a captive lead. That is the problem!