Some questions about power cables

[hifiman]

Looking to trial/buy some Isotek power cables or any brands in my price range ($100-200)

 

My HT room has a dedicated power circuit.

 

1. Which electronics benefit best with an upgraded power, is there a particular order upgrade?

 

 

2. Most if not all of my electronics run off power cables connected to power boards, if I were to upgrade the power cables, then also the power boards would need upgrading as well? 

 

[JSmith]

4 minutes ago, hifiman said:

Which electronics benefit best with an upgraded power

It's a mystery no one has solved...

 

Trial and error is the name of the game here.... some report substantial benefits, others not. You may want to read some of the many threads on this topic over the years here and other forums for a feel on what may be best for you.

 

JSmith 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

2 hours ago, hifiman said:

Looking to trial/buy some Isotek power cables or any brands in my price range ($100-200)

 

My HT room has a dedicated power circuit.

 

1. Which electronics benefit best with an upgraded power, is there a particular order upgrade?

None.

 

2 hours ago, hifiman said:

 

 

2. Most if not all of my electronics run off power cables connected to power boards, if I were to upgrade the power cables, then also the power boards would need upgrading as well? 

 

Nope.

[Krispy Audio]

I've found that source components generally tend to respond more to power cable changes than anything else. So I'd recommend your dac/cd/phono as the first port of call, followed by pre and then power. 

[~Spyne~]

Depending on what sort of power board you are using, many people (not all) seem to experience a slight improvement when their amplifier/s is connected straight to a wall outlet, no power board/power conditioner inline.

You'll find many differing opinions about whether power cables make a difference. Some people swear black and blue they hear differences between cables while others argue that it must be 'expectation bias' as there is no mathematics to suggest there will be an improvement from one well-made cable to another.

I've tried 3 different power cables and two different "hi-fi" power boards. With some scepticism going in, I've not been able to consistently identify any differences in sound from one to the next. Luckily they weren't super-expensive and I purchased them more for the 'fuzzy feel good' vibes of having some "audiophile" gear, not really expecting any significant improvements.

[allaboutaudio]

Hi – I have been building audio systems professionally for 40 years, (including 3 at of EMI Abbey Road). I also happen to be a cable designer for scientific and industrial use too, and so really happy to share and comment.

A system is like a conduit, and resolution is constricted by least performing part.

If you hear any difference in cabling, first the rest of the system and all the other cable has to be up to the resolution spec to show the improvement.

I’d start with power cable, as that provides the grounding for a system, and ensures the same reference voltage is being used on al the components. This is especially important with single ended (RCA) connectors as the signal shares the chassis and ground paths (given a chose, XLR all day long!)

I’d avoid metal braided/ screen power cables – any noise they filter the dump to the ground- which is also the precious audio ground (see previous para). My preference is carbon screen where mains is an issue.

As for distribution- if filtering is needed the use one filter with one outlet to feed the whole system, this again ensures all the components are on the same level. However, a good clean input and sound ground should need no filtering. A simple common bussed power board will give best results, - if it didn’t then I’d want to know what was wrong with the equipment!

Avoid multiple power sources, and don’t be tempted by a filter/ transformer for one set of kit, and not for another- they create differentials in grounding and noise.

Power cable won’t make a difference on all system, - here is how and when it does:

 At one end of the spectrum is, say, an mp3 player, at the other is real sound, and hi-fi sits somewhere between the two. Cabling is important because it interacts with the electronics, Signal and speaker cables effectively become part of the circuit. There is also the point that the spec of a piece of kit is measured with it on a test bench, not connected to anything else. The spec is changed when connected to other equipment, and altered by the cable connection between the two.

If you consider we hear to say, 10kHz, but like the eyes detect small angle differences to perceive depth, the time offset change of sound reaching each ear as an object moves in front of us is millionths of a second, and that is the domain where our nervous system stereo image and proximity. The more the left and right timing offset it preserved in replayed music, the more the image is represented and , logically, the more natural it sounds. (In fact, when we don’t know where a sound is from – excessive jitter for example- we have an adrenal reactions in a ready for flight or fight response – that’s why your shoulders rise in a noisy restaurant or bar).

If your system components and cabling structure are working together to reproduce within the vicinity of resolution that gives stable aiming (Vinyl is inherently more stable than digital because the left and Right are mechanically bound in correct relative phase) then improvements will be more apparent and may be quite significant. But you have to have a baseline first! (My telescope I rubbish unless I mount is on a solid concrete base!)

Mains cable should be designed to minimise noise and electrical interference between units, as this moise impinged on the audio ground and can act a bit like jitter.

Because the least performing component will dictate the limit of the whole system (bottleneck/weakest link) you might hear some improvement, but its impossible to hear the benefit of a cable upgrade unless you change the whole lot to a higher resolution type. Often I hear people say that speaker cable makes the biggest difference – erm, that’s because it is often the last in the chain to be changed! And I agree with the earlier post, if you have to start somewhere, then start with the more sensitive kit- sources and pre-amps.

Hope this helps and shines a light on the subject

[frankn]

@hifiman

try some out with the option to return them if you don’t notice any worthwhile improvement. That way you are only out the cost of shipping or perhaps nothing if you are able to purchase locally. 

Sounds like you might start with sources and pre-amp (if you have one). 

It doesn’t matter what others think.

[JSmith]

One interesting thing is why premium amp and component manufacturers don't just supply the appropriate cable to get the "best" out of their own product... amazing really how a 3rd party product can fill the gap so to speak.

 

JSmith

[frankn]

Not really - products are made to cost models and offered to the public as the product will sound good at this price/performance level. Some companies suggest in their literature that optimum performance can be achieved with aftermarket products. 

Look at the ‘few cents, few dollars’ here/there saved in things like capacitors, resistors, wire when building products. 

Its why there is such a large tweaking community. 

 

[cafe67]

On 27 October 2017 at 4:33 PM, allaboutaudio said:

Hi – I have been building audio systems professionally for 40 years, (including 3 at of EMI Abbey Road). I also happen to be a cable designer for scientific and industrial use too, and so really happy to share and comment.

 

A system is like a conduit, and resolution is constricted by least performing part.

If you hear any difference in cabling, first the rest of the system and all the other cable has to be up to the resolution spec to show the improvement.

I’d start with power cable, as that provides the grounding for a system, and ensures the same reference voltage is being used on al the components. This is especially important with single ended (RCA) connectors as the signal shares the chassis and ground paths (given a chose, XLR all day long!)

I’d avoid metal braided/ screen power cables – any noise they filter the dump to the ground- which is also the precious audio ground (see previous para). My preference is carbon screen where mains is an issue.

As for distribution- if filtering is needed the use one filter with one outlet to feed the whole system, this again ensures all the components are on the same level. However, a good clean input and sound ground should need no filtering. A simple common bussed power board will give best results, - if it didn’t then I’d want to know what was wrong with the equipment!

Avoid multiple power sources, and don’t be tempted by a filter/ transformer for one set of kit, and not for another- they create differentials in grounding and noise.

Power cable won’t make a difference on all system, - here is how and when it does:

 At one end of the spectrum is, say, an mp3 player, at the other is real sound, and hi-fi sits somewhere between the two. Cabling is important because it interacts with the electronics, Signal and speaker cables effectively become part of the circuit. There is also the point that the spec of a piece of kit is measured with it on a test bench, not connected to anything else. The spec is changed when connected to other equipment, and altered by the cable connection between the two.

If you consider we hear to say, 10kHz, but like the eyes detect small angle differences to perceive depth, the time offset change of sound reaching each ear as an object moves in front of us is millionths of a second, and that is the domain where our nervous system stereo image and proximity. The more the left and right timing offset it preserved in replayed music, the more the image is represented and , logically, the more natural it sounds. (In fact, when we don’t know where a sound is from – excessive jitter for example- we have an adrenal reactions in a ready for flight or fight response – that’s why your shoulders rise in a noisy restaurant or bar).

If your system components and cabling structure are working together to reproduce within the vicinity of resolution that gives stable aiming (Vinyl is inherently more stable than digital because the left and Right are mechanically bound in correct relative phase) then improvements will be more apparent and may be quite significant. But you have to have a baseline first! (My telescope I rubbish unless I mount is on a solid concrete base!)

Mains cable should be designed to minimise noise and electrical interference between units, as this moise impinged on the audio ground and can act a bit like jitter.

Because the least performing component will dictate the limit of the whole system (bottleneck/weakest link) you might hear some improvement, but its impossible to hear the benefit of a cable upgrade unless you change the whole lot to a higher resolution type. Often I hear people say that speaker cable makes the biggest difference – erm, that’s because it is often the last in the chain to be changed! And I agree with the earlier post, if you have to start somewhere, then start with the more sensitive kit- sources and pre-amps.

Hope this helps and shines a light on the subject

One hell of a first post

[JSmith]

On ‎27‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 8:24 PM, frankn said:

Not really - products are made to cost

C'mon mate... talking about a $10 000 amp one would expect the optimal cord to come with it surely.

 

JSmith

[rocky500]

10 minutes ago, JSmith said:

C'mon mate... talking about a $10 000 amp one would expect the optimal cord to come with it surely.

 

JSmith

You mean something like this

http://www.psaudio.com/products/bhk-signature-amplifier/

 

I think they still recommend their better power cables.

[Guest]

On 10/27/2017 at 1:33 AM, allaboutaudio said:

Hi – I have been building audio systems professionally for 40 years, (including 3 at of EMI Abbey Road). I also happen to be a cable designer for scientific and industrial use too, and so really happy to share and comment.

 

A system is like a conduit, and resolution is constricted by least performing part.

If you hear any difference in cabling, first the rest of the system and all the other cable has to be up to the resolution spec to show the improvement.

I’d start with power cable, as that provides the grounding for a system, and ensures the same reference voltage is being used on al the components. This is especially important with single ended (RCA) connectors as the signal shares the chassis and ground paths (given a chose, XLR all day long!)

I’d avoid metal braided/ screen power cables – any noise they filter the dump to the ground- which is also the precious audio ground (see previous para). My preference is carbon screen where mains is an issue.

As for distribution- if filtering is needed the use one filter with one outlet to feed the whole system, this again ensures all the components are on the same level. However, a good clean input and sound ground should need no filtering. A simple common bussed power board will give best results, - if it didn’t then I’d want to know what was wrong with the equipment!

Avoid multiple power sources, and don’t be tempted by a filter/ transformer for one set of kit, and not for another- they create differentials in grounding and noise.

Power cable won’t make a difference on all system, - here is how and when it does:

 At one end of the spectrum is, say, an mp3 player, at the other is real sound, and hi-fi sits somewhere between the two. Cabling is important because it interacts with the electronics, Signal and speaker cables effectively become part of the circuit. There is also the point that the spec of a piece of kit is measured with it on a test bench, not connected to anything else. The spec is changed when connected to other equipment, and altered by the cable connection between the two.

If you consider we hear to say, 10kHz, but like the eyes detect small angle differences to perceive depth, the time offset change of sound reaching each ear as an object moves in front of us is millionths of a second, and that is the domain where our nervous system stereo image and proximity. The more the left and right timing offset it preserved in replayed music, the more the image is represented and , logically, the more natural it sounds. (In fact, when we don’t know where a sound is from – excessive jitter for example- we have an adrenal reactions in a ready for flight or fight response – that’s why your shoulders rise in a noisy restaurant or bar).

If your system components and cabling structure are working together to reproduce within the vicinity of resolution that gives stable aiming (Vinyl is inherently more stable than digital because the left and Right are mechanically bound in correct relative phase) then improvements will be more apparent and may be quite significant. But you have to have a baseline first! (My telescope I rubbish unless I mount is on a solid concrete base!)

Mains cable should be designed to minimise noise and electrical interference between units, as this moise impinged on the audio ground and can act a bit like jitter.

Because the least performing component will dictate the limit of the whole system (bottleneck/weakest link) you might hear some improvement, but its impossible to hear the benefit of a cable upgrade unless you change the whole lot to a higher resolution type. Often I hear people say that speaker cable makes the biggest difference – erm, that’s because it is often the last in the chain to be changed! And I agree with the earlier post, if you have to start somewhere, then start with the more sensitive kit- sources and pre-amps.

Hope this helps and shines a light on the subject

 The power cable debate fizzeld out only a couple of weeks ago again after about the 4th power cable debate installment since christmas. Stick around and keep an eye out is a lot of fun.

Welcome to SNA 

[Guest]

On 10/27/2017 at 2:14 AM, JSmith said:

One interesting thing is why premium amp and component manufacturers don't just supply the appropriate cable to get the "best" out of their own product... amazing really how a 3rd party product can fill the gap so to speak.

 

JSmith

Product Margins get a bit skinny with those sort of give aways/combination purchase at the stereo store if the cords go with the components

[Guest]

On 10/15/2017 at 5:19 PM, hifiman said:

Looking to trial/buy some Isotek power cables or any brands in my price range ($100-200)

 

My HT room has a dedicated power circuit.

 

1. Which electronics benefit best with an upgraded power, is there a particular order upgrade?

 

 

2. Most if not all of my electronics run off power cables connected to power boards, if I were to upgrade the power cables, then also the power boards would need upgrading as well? 

 

If the power point feeding the system is more than 10 years old replace that while you are at it

[frankn]

2 hours ago, JSmith said:

C'mon mate... talking about a $10 000 amp one would expect the optimal cord to come with it surely.

 

JSmith

you’d have to go significantly up the $$ scale before everything is optimised. 

 

[frankn]

Perhaps The Gryphon Mephisto @ $85K. 

Maybe not. One reviewer was using Nordost and Siltech power cables. 

Even at this level Gryphon are using IEC connection for power.  

[StudioConnections]

On 27/10/2017 at 10:14 AM, JSmith said:

One interesting thing is why premium amp and component manufacturers don't just supply the appropriate cable to get the "best" out of their own product... amazing really how a 3rd party product can fill the gap so to speak.

 

JSmith

It never ceases to amaze me how manufacturers gets so isolated in their own product they forget that it has to work with other kit and in the real world. Just like the handling of a highly refined car design depends on good chassis design, a great audio system needs a good cable structure to bring everything together at its optimum. Having worked in a few electronic design offices, I'd say its probably that most engineers at the transistor level can't conceive how a cable might affect the performance of their design. Maybe it won't as a stand alone unit, but a cable will absolutely effects how a piece of performance kit interacts with the other component in the chain, and how the whole system hangs together - or not.

[StudioConnections]

14 hours ago, 125dBmonster said:

 The power cable debate fizzeld out only a couple of weeks ago again after about the 4th power cable debate installment since christmas. Stick around and keep an eye out is a lot of fun.

Welcome to SNA 

Thanks 125bBmonster. I'm not interested in cables per se but they happen to be core to getting near perfect audio from the kit - so I have a lot of fun with cables!  In fact they have been about 80% of my working life for the past 10 years...theatre sound, TV , recording and mastering studios and, of course, home systems. Its not a debate; cable is the interface of each bit of kit in the system- if you have kit and recordings with great resolution, you need the cable system to hold the whole audio system together so maintain that resolution.

[Darren69]

3 hours ago, StudioConnections said:

Thanks 125bBmonster. I'm not interested in cables per se but they happen to be core to getting near perfect audio from the kit - so I have a lot of fun with cables!  In fact they have been about 80% of my working life for the past 10 years...theatre sound, TV , recording and mastering studios and, of course, home systems. Its not a debate; cable is the interface of each bit of kit in the system- if you have kit and recordings with great resolution, you need the cable system to hold the whole audio system together so maintain that resolution.

Could this be Mr Whiteside?

 

Hullo mate, hope you are well.

 

Tangent over.

 

Daz

[JSmith]

4 hours ago, StudioConnections said:

In fact they have been about 80% of my working life for the past 10 years

What a shame the manufacturers of these products didn't just give you the optimal power cable when purchasing said product... could have saved you a lot of time!

 

JSmith 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

On 10/27/2017 at 7:33 PM, allaboutaudio said:

 

Hope this helps and shines a light on the subject

Not really. Not ONCE, in the whole history of audio, has anyone been able to demonstrate, in a DBT, that there are any audible differences between mains cables. Additionally:

 

* The weak link in most mains cables are the IEC connectors. Solution: Replace them with decent quality products, like those from Neutrik, or, better still, use proper captive leads. And of course, there is no difference between any mains cables, provided they are suitably rated.

 

That said, if you can provide a reference to a suitably rigorous DBT where mains cable differences were noted, please feel free to post a link. 

 

In the meantime, this is what I suggest:

 

https://www.wagneronline.com.au/iec-c13-lock-to-10a-gpo-plug-medical/power-240vac/power-lighting/972916/fl/

 

[JSmith]

34 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

audible differences

What about any measurable differences? 

 

JSmith 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

23 minutes ago, JSmith said:

What about any measurable differences? 

 

JSmith 

It would be quite possible to measure differences between two power cables. However, such differences are WAY. WAY below any kind of audibility. In fact, as I have acknowledged, there are much greater differences between any two IEC connectors. Particularly when comparing a new one vs. an old one. Neutrik connectors are superior, in that there is no difference between an old connector (provided it has not exceeded the suggested life-span) and a new one. Even better, captive power leads are impervious to the faults introduced by IEC connectors.

[Darren69]

My amp leads get loose in the IEC fitting from time to time I don't like it, I might try those medical ones thanks Trev.