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Hi All   I will get right to it - my USB only GROB simply blows away the Direct Stream.   That's right - a 2.3k or so DAC takes out, and make no mistake about it, the difference is not subtl

Holy crap Clay.    I have just plugged in my new GroB dac, that I picked up from Clay on thursday.  It’s replacing a PS Audio Nuwave DSD dac.   No slouch in itself.    Well I’ll th

I have made two changes to my system in the last month, one of which was putting two very pretty handcrafted wooden knobs on the front of my Artisan amp instead of the standard chrome metal ones that

Received unit late yesterday.
 
Wow - very impressed. Wider staging, more detail, tighter bass, more natural, transparent.  
 

What is particularly good is how it improved 16/44.1 PCM (CD material).  Also quickly tried DSD, definitely an improvement.

 

Unit much smaller than Audiolab DAC. Will post detailed review later in week

15069865531581911410429.jpg

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I'm very keen to receive mine now.

 

I'll use USB from a network audio device. Family still likes CD, so if anyone can recommend a CD transport to use with the new DAC, please PM me; I don't want to derail the thread.

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On 03/10/2017 at 11:43 AM, Raffinator said:

I'll use USB from a network audio device. Family still likes CD, so if anyone can recommend a CD transport to use with the new DAC, please PM me; I don't want to derail the thread.

Am using Sotm SMS-200, works well.

 

Family? Cannot see kids today using CDs!  Must be better half still clinging to the physical disk? :lol:

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Am using Sotm SMS-200, works well.
 
Family? Cannot see kids today using CDs!  Must be better half still clinging to the physical disk? :lol:


Yeah pretty much...

I’m on the Roon bandwagon these days, but with Sonore endpoints not SoTM.

Kids are young and just do what mummy does. Once they get their own iPad it will be game over.


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Excellent hi-re samples from 2L for testing your Groß.  All have different hi-res versions of the same recordings, which will allow you to make some interesting comparisons. Assuming of course that you can hear the difference :excl:

http://www.2l.no/hires/

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

5 hours ago, Raffinator said:

Thanks to Clay's magic, we can now do DSD512

 

See his post in https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/232237-gieseler-groß-dac-official-release/?page=6&tab=comments#comment-3778150

 

That's my baby being worked on! Ready to microRendu to DSD512 when it arrives.

I assume you are using Roon or HQPlayer upsampling?   Will be interesting to hear your thoughts on how the Groß manages the various DSD formats.  Have difficulty telling apart DSD64 & DSD128, admittedly on limited materials

 

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2 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

I assume you are using Roon or HQPlayer upsampling?   Will be interesting to hear your thoughts on how the Groß manages the various DSD formats.  Have difficulty telling apart DSD64 & DSD128, admittedly on limited materials

 

Spot on. Roon to DSD256 and HQPlayer to DSD512. Fingers crossed.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi All

 

I will get right to it - my USB only GROB simply blows away the Direct Stream.   That's right - a 2.3k or so DAC takes out, and make no mistake about it, the difference is not subtle, the much much more expensive Direct Stream with the latest software etc (I think its about $8k or so here in Aus).

 

Here are the details.

 

The system was:

1. An old Macbook running an old version of Audirvana and my little Windows machine running HQPlayer up-sampled to DXD.  HQplayer easily bested Audirvana - but I have to emphasize this was a very old version running on an old machine.  New versions running on more modern Mac's would almost certainly be a LOT better.

2.  The Direct Stream and my USB only GROB DAC.

3.  An ISO Regen using Clay's power supply.

4.  The BHK Pre

5.  The 250W BHK amp with new NOS tubes from a tube nut (well he is a nice guy actually with what many consider the best system in Aus- so 'I shouldn't say that - but I am sure you get my drift).   Its the best my BHK has sounded.

6.   A pair of standard ML1's  - no Duelunds or anything like that the maker, Mike, uses in his more upmarket speakers - just the standard version with Erse capacitors.

7.  Curios USB cables used into and out of the regen.

 

Mostly the critical listening was done with my standard critical listening track - Diana Krall - Case Of You but we did try some other stuff including Tidal MQA via the Tidal application which only does the first unfolding and compared it to some rips I had - one we checked that way was Diana Krall - Wallflower - full unfolding will need to wait until I can connect my Aries LE to it and see what happens.  We didn't try the Bridge on the Direct Stream to check out full unfolding of MQA because it wasn't connected up.

 

Ok - started listening to he GROB via Audirvana - not bad - not bad at all.  Switched to the Direct Stream.  Hmmm - a little different - maybe slightly better harmonic texture - but it was close.  Switched back - and as often happens in such comparisons when you go to something better the difference was more pronounced - I thought the GROB was better.   Better detail, bass and flow.

 

OK lets get rid of that old Audirvana and put in HQPlayer upsampled to DXD.  Holey cow - now we are cooking - it was at another level - it simply sounded so dynamic and real.  Switched to the DS - flat and dead by comparison.  Switched back - again now very alive.

 

Tried some other tracks - Air Supply - Best Of in 88.2.  Same thing.  Then John Williamson - 40 Year Anniversary - wow - I never heard John sound like this - he was there.  Boogy With My Baby just bought an involuntary smile.

 

OK I have Tidal on my little machine so lets see how it goes into the GROB.   We tried 44.1 Wallflower - blah - not that big a fan of 44.1 through Tidal - its OK and I listen to it a lot - but stuff on my disk is better - except for MQA.  Pity I can't run it through HQPlayer.   But I have a ripped copy of that on my machine so played that though HQ Player - now we are cooking again.   Played the MQA version - it sounded better again - a comment of someone else there was - listen to the bass - it was amazing.

 

I said that's it - my DS is going.  This is a USB only version - Clay will build me a SPDIF only version I will use for my HT stuff out of my Oppo.  Why not simply get one where you can switch between the two?  Clay will probably kill me for saying this - but I say it how I see it - my opinion is you will not get this type of performance out of a version with a switch on inputs.  I think the performance I was getting is due in part to it only being USB and internally all connections from the USB board were kept as short as possible.  However until a comparison can be made with a switched version it's just conjecture.  I mentioned it to other people and everyone (except one person) said - no - it couldn't make that much difference.   I just am not that sure - I have heard stranger things in this hobby.  That one person however is a DAC builder and designer himself (Rawl99) - he said - could be, could be - he only has one input on the DAC's he mucks around with - but much prefers the I2S interface.

 

So there you have it - a stunning result - well done Clay.

 

Thanks

Bill 

 

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1 minute ago, Sean84 said:

 

Hey Raffinator. Any reason why not Roon to DSD512?

 

I'm only using Roon at the moment, because Clay installed the Linux firmware version. HQPlayer is on my PC.

 

DSD256 is sounding wonderful. DSD512 is a crackle-fest. Could be a combination of the older hardware (MacMini i5), wifi network and firmware stability.

 

So I'll wait until they have the unified next Amanero firmware for both PC and Linux. Then I'll try DSD512 HQPlayer from my newer i7 PC.

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31 minutes ago, Raffinator said:

DSD256 is sounding wonderful. DSD512 is a crackle-fest. Could be a combination of the older hardware (MacMini i5), wifi network and firmware stability.

Cool, got it. What's Roon's processing rate with DSD512? Over 1.3x ?

 

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23 hours ago, bhobba said:

I will get right to it - my USB only GROB simply blows away the Direct Stream.   That's right - a 2.3k or so DAC takes out, and make no mistake about it, the difference is not subtle, the much much more expensive Direct Stream with the latest software etc (I think its about $8k or so here in Aus).

 

...............

 

I said that's it - my DS is going.

Excellent review Bill.  Are you going to revisit the comparison with the new DS firmware?

 

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51 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Excellent review Bill.  Are you going to revisit the comparison with the new DS firmware

Depends upon if I have sold it by then or not.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

 

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On 28 November 2017 at 4:19 PM, bhobba said:

Hi All

 

I will get right to it - my USB only GROB simply blows away the Direct Stream.   That's right - a 2.3k or so DAC takes out, and make no mistake about it, the difference is not subtle, the much much more expensive Direct Stream with the latest software etc (I think its about $8k or so here in Aus).

 

Here are the details.

 

The system was:

1. An old Macbook running an old version of Audirvana and my little Windows machine running HQPlayer up-sampled to DXD.  HQplayer easily bested Audirvana - but I have to emphasize this was a very old version running on an old machine.  New versions running on more modern Mac's would almost certainly be a LOT better.

2.  The Direct Stream and my USB only GROB DAC.

3.  An ISO Regen using Clay's power supply.

4.  The BHK Pre

5.  The 250W BHK amp with new NOS tubes from a tube nut (well he is a nice guy actually with what many consider the best system in Aus- so 'I shouldn't say that - but I am sure you get my drift).   Its the best my BHK has sounded.

6.   A pair of standard ML1's  - no Duelunds or anything like that the maker, Mike, uses in his more upmarket speakers - just the standard version with Erse capacitors.

7.  Curios USB cables used into and out of the regen.

 

Mostly the critical listening was done with my standard critical listening track - Diana Krall - Case Of You but we did try some other stuff including Tidal MQA via the Tidal application which only does the first unfolding and compared it to some rips I had - one we checked that way was Diana Krall - Wallflower - full unfolding will need to wait until I can connect my Aries LE to it and see what happens.  We didn't try the Bridge on the Direct Stream to check out full unfolding of MQA because it wasn't connected up.

 

Ok - started listening to he GROB via Audirvana - not bad - not bad at all.  Switched to the Direct Stream.  Hmmm - a little different - maybe slightly better harmonic texture - but it was close.  Switched back - and as often happens in such comparisons when you go to something better the difference was more pronounced - I thought the GROB was better.   Better detail, bass and flow.

 

OK lets get rid of that old Audirvana and put in HQPlayer upsampled to DXD.  Holey cow - now we are cooking - it was at another level - it simply sounded so dynamic and real.  Switched to the DS - flat and dead by comparison.  Switched back - again now very alive.

 

Tried some other tracks - Air Supply - Best Of in 88.2.  Same thing.  Then John Williamson - 40 Year Anniversary - wow - I never heard John sound like this - he was there.  Boogy With My Baby just bought an involuntary smile.

 

OK I have Tidal on my little machine so lets see how it goes into the GROB.   We tried 44.1 Wallflower - blah - not that big a fan of 44.1 through Tidal - its OK and I listen to it a lot - but stuff on my disk is better - except for MQA.  Pity I can't run it through HQPlayer.   But I have a ripped copy of that on my machine so played that though HQ Player - now we are cooking again.   Played the MQA version - it sounded better again - a comment of someone else there was - listen to the bass - it was amazing.

 

I said that's it - my DS is going.  This is a USB only version - Clay will build me a SPDIF only version I will use for my HT stuff out of my Oppo.  Why not simply get one where you can switch between the two?  Clay will probably kill me for saying this - but I say it how I see it - my opinion is you will not get this type of performance out of a version with a switch on inputs.  I think the performance I was getting is due in part to it only being USB and internally all connections from the USB board were kept as short as possible.  However until a comparison can be made with a switched version it's just conjecture.  I mentioned it to other people and everyone (except one person) said - no - it couldn't make that much difference.   I just am not that sure - I have heard stranger things in this hobby.  That one person however is a DAC builder and designer himself (Rawl99) - he said - could be, could be - he only has one input on the DAC's he mucks around with - but much prefers the I2S interface.

 

So there you have it - a stunning result - well done Clay.

 

Thanks

Bill 

 

Just when I think I have forgotten how good the Grob is I read this. Groan.

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11 hours ago, Ancientflatulence said:

 

Go On   @BAM ......... do it .............. :):) ................. it's not the outlay ............. you are really saving 5.7K (according to Bhobba's figures) .................... it is an investment ........... :angel::angel:

Yes. I could advertise the PS as the second best DAC in the world.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have made two changes to my system in the last month, one of which was putting two very pretty handcrafted wooden knobs on the front of my Artisan amp instead of the standard chrome metal ones that Earle puts on.
Whilst this has made the amplifier even nicer to look at, I am not convinced that the superior sonic qualities and low resonance that wooden knobs will impart to ones system can be wholly responsible for the fact that the system is now sounding the best that I have heard it.


I do suspect that the the other item that is newly acquired may be the cause of my sonic bliss. I have had the Groß DAC installed for a little over a month and can honestly say that it is wonderful. I now tend to spend quite a lot of time sitting in front of the speakers trying to read, but I am constantly being distracted by the "Wow, listen to that" factor as the Groß continues to dazzle me with its performance.

 

ABSOLUTELY TOP MARKS CLAYTON!!  :party:party

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40 minutes ago, Ancientflatulence said:

... "Wow, listen to that factor" as the Groß continues to dazzle me with its performance.

Couldn't agree more :thumb:

 

Curious what your previous DAC was and whether you did a comparison?

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Thanks to @bhobba, I now have a Geiseler GroB DAC in my possession...ON LOAN OF COURSE! It's a bit beyond my budget to purchase outright at the moment! 

Has anyone noticed that the GroB DAC does improve a noticeable amount when it is powered on for at least a day? I mean, it was no slouch to begin with, equalling my Gungnir Multibit in my preference order of sound on first power on. It sounded different, of course as Gungnir Multibit is a R2R DAC.

Edited by Suopermanni
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Hi Suopermanni

 

Just about all pieces of gear imporve with burn in.  That DAC is very new so its no suprise a day burn in will be noticeable.   As you listen more you will likely find it changes further.

 

If you have a DAC you think sounds better let us know - but I am bettng that will be highly unlikely - but one never knows.

 

Thanks

Bill

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Holy crap Clay. 

 

I have just plugged in my new GroB dac, that I picked up from Clay on thursday.  It’s replacing a PS Audio Nuwave DSD dac.   No slouch in itself. 

 

Well I’ll that was until I fired up the GroB.  As the title says. Holy crap.  The soundstage just increased.  There is a depth of detail that I’ve never experienced before.  I’ve owned clays Klein and Klein II Dacs but this blows even them away.  I haven’t even touched DSD files yet.  I’m streaming some Tidal MQA titles at the moment through a bluesound node 2.  

 

Lets say im in heaven.  I am now going to start changing some of the filters and see what happens. 

 

Mr Gieseler.  Your a genius 

 

I’ll report Back in a week or so when this little gem has properly burnt In

Edited by Bill125812
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Okay, tried some high res stuff on the GroB DAC that @bhobba lent me including some DSD from demo pieces from 2L High Resolution Music Test Bench. While I could not really differentiate between the different bit-rates, I was struck by the recordings. It's well done and though way different to what I listen to, it is quite an eye opener. 

 

EDIT: Yes, the GroB DAC does play the DSD via Bitstreaming on JRiver. No need for DoP.

 

EDIT2: Played one of my go-to tracks (mostly because I like it and know it) and I detected some definite differences to now compared to start and to burnt in Gungnir Multibit! Now this is better!

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23 hours ago, Suopermanni said:

Played one of my go-to tracks (mostly because I like it and know it) and I detected some definite differences to now compared to start and to burnt in Gungnir Multibit! Now this is better!

Yes it will get better with time.  Have been told, via some second hand private feedback, of a comparison that shows again what a giant killer this little DAC is - but need to confirm it personally before I can post.  That will happen early in the new year.

 

Sorry Suopermanni will need it back then for that comparison  - but don't worry - over a week still to go and looking forward to your further impressions :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

 

Also when doing comparisons your go-to tracks that you know and like are the best to use.  It's what I always do - but also to be fair listen to some other stuff as well to get a rounded picture.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited by bhobba
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59 minutes ago, bhobba said:

Yes it will get better with time.  Have been told, via some second hand private feedback, of a comparison that shows again what a giant killer this little DAC is - but need to confirm it personally before I can post.  That will happen early in the new year.

 

Sorry Suopermanni will need it back then for that comparison  - but don't worry - over a week still to go and looking forward to your further impressions :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

 

Also when doing comparisons your go-to tracks that you know and like are the best to use.  It's what I always do do - but also to be fair listen to some other stuff as well to get a rounded picture.

 

Thanks

Bill

@bhobba Of course of course! It is YOUR Dac after all that I'm borrowing. When you need it back, let me know and let's arrange something so I can return it!

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49 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

@bhobba was your version with the amanero USB board?

Yes,he has the Amanero USB only version, see earlier review:

 

Edited by Snoopy8
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4 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Yes,he has the Amanero USB only version, see earlier review:

 

Hi Snoop,

 

as per here:

I thought @bhobba was ordering the Singxer USB version? I just wondered which version he ended up getting as his report states just that it was the “USB only” version, not whether it was the Amanero or Singxer...

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On 31/08/2017 at 3:46 PM, bhobba said:

Hi Guys

 

Sent Clay an email to order one.  Just spoke to soimeone whose ears I trust, but cant name who was VERY impresssed - that good enough for me.

 

Want the Singxer version.

 

Will be giving Clay a special notebook I have purchased just for Music.

 

It will run HQPlayer and upsample everything to 768K - which is getting close to DSD anyway.  My current experimentation showed music was dull then up-sampled it to DXD (354k) and it came alive.  Used the Direct Stream DAC which does massive up-sampling itself, so obviously HQPlayer up-sampling is better than what the DS does.  But it really up-samples - to 10XDSDS- wow.

 

Thanks

Bill

Sorry, that other link crapped out. The above is what I was referring to.

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@Stereophilus I don't think Clay actually successfully managed to use the Singxer in his DAC. I believe Clay mentioned later in the topic that he couldn't use it.

 

EDIT: By the way, I'm getting some weird playback issues occasionally on my WINDOWS 10 PC in that at times, JRiver will refuse to play my music saying the hardware doesn't support its standard rate even though I know it does. 

Edited by Suopermanni
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The Singxer F1 does not have the exact same pin layout as the Amanero board as originally thought and isn't a direct substitute for the Amanero, so a Singxer F1 based Groß DAC is unlikely as it would require a significant redesign.

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@Stereophilus Clay did try the Singxer and it was not compatible with the Amanero and abandoned that project. He also mentioned that the Singxer was poor quality.

 

13 minutes ago, Suopermanni said:

EDIT: By the way, I'm getting some weird playback issues occasionally on my WINDOWS 10 PC in that at times, JRiver will refuse to play my music saying the hardware doesn't support its standard rate even though I know it does. 

Did you use the Amanero driver?  Also, you may have to use DoP?

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1 hour ago, jermaink said:

The Singxer F1 does not have the exact same pin layout as the Amanero board as originally thought and isn't a direct substitute for the Amanero, so a Singxer F1 based Groß DAC is unlikely as it would require a significant redesign.

 

Clay is going to be building these for a while so it will not happen quickly.  But Clay may take the time out eventually to do a Singster version - maybe when a new version of the DAC chip is released.

 

Thanks

Bill

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