THOMO Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 I have a pair of speakers for assessment which use a PHL 6.5 inch midrange in combination with a Raven Point Source ribbon tweeter .To me they sound a bit too forward and a bit shouty and was wondering if this is typical?Not unusual for high efficiency paper coned drivers I suppose and I usually do not mind a bit of that character but these take it a bit too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 No. 99% of whether it will be "forward" or "shouty" sounding is the frequency response of the driver(s) - not forgetting to consider this over multiple angles. A dB or two too much here and there through the middle few octaves, can easily do this. Check the advice of the manufacturer on listening height/distance, and 'toe-in' ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanArn Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 The crossover network will need to be carefully designed to allow a smooth integration between the wide angle dispersion of the ribbon tweeter and the more narrow dispersion of the midrange speaker in the 2 to 4 kHz crossover region. The midrange unit will need to be attenuated by around 6dB ( depending on the PHL unit you are using ) with an 'L' pads. Time alignment may help in reducing the effects of sibilance if this is also of concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOMO Posted September 30, 2017 Author Share Posted September 30, 2017 Yes I suspect trying an L pad on the midrange could be the first thing to try. I suspect efficiency has been the main goal with these speakers as they were used with 15 watt Class A amps. My suspicion is that there could be some overlap at the crossover point . The whole thing sounds a bit forward,dry and lean but not really cold.Voices are expressive but just a bit too emphatic. They image very well though so phasing should not be too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murrmax Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Yes I'd agree that it is more to do with the implementation/crossover design than the drivers themselves. I have Phl mids and Raal ribbons and they're not shouty at all. I'm using an active set-up so I could make them shouty..e.g if I reduced the output of the bass drivers or changed xover points. From what you describe and from my experience, occurs when the bass drivers output is too low or the xover point is not optimal. It doesn't sound like there's an issue with the mid/ribbon integration ? I am assuming they're 3 ways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRG Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 I've used phl 1220 and 1120 and found them to be very good in many ways. However, both needed taming of their breakup higher up. Also, I believe their efficiencies may be higher than the Raven point source. From memory, 93 and 95 dB whereas the Raven is less than that. What crossover slopes and frequencies are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A9X Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 On 30/09/2017 at 9:43 AM, THOMO said: To me they sound a bit too forward and a bit shouty and was wondering if this is typical? Nope. Agree with the others re system implementation. Been listening to an active PHL system the last few days. On 30/09/2017 at 9:43 AM, THOMO said: Not unusual for high efficiency paper coned drivers I suppose Also not true on average, speaking from a lot of experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THOMO Posted October 9, 2017 Author Share Posted October 9, 2017 The midrange is the PHL 1130 and there are three PHL 1230 bass drivers below that. These speakers are owned by a friend .They are basically a failed project .I was listening again last night with a friend trying to get our heads around what the problem might be but they sound so strange it is a bit hard to tell.To me they sound a bit like a cheap PA speaker .They throw the sound way forward and right in your face so it really is like singers are shouting at you.Timing is not much good either.Surprisingly they sound a lot better on classical music than other stuff . Not sure about the crossover design but do wonder if something is wired out of phase for it to sound so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lusk Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) You'll go around in circles trying to work out whats going on unless you measure them. Without knowing how they are actually wired, it could be an efficiency mis-match with driver selection. 1230 x 3 as bass drivers @ 93dB each to go with 1 x 1130 @ 96dB 1230 is not really a bass driver more mid-bass so is not going to go low maybe explains why you say sounds lean. Edit: I see that Raven Point Source is 90dB so seems drivers are mis-matched. Edited October 10, 2017 by lusk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) Bingo what Lusk said. Measure the tweeter (ie disconnect the other drivers), then the mids, then the woof-woofs. Measure the lot together. The graphs will show you how they sum, whether crossover points and slopes are ok, and whether the output levels are ok. Opinion, says the tweeter should be 4 or 6 dB? (I forget what the correct number is) down on the woofers, with the mids in between. Something like that. It is both fun to do and really very easy to do. When adjusted, you will be happy. The speakers too....... :o) Edited October 10, 2017 by Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murrmax Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I think Lusk is on the money, - also has BSC been taken into account also? anything below 750hz will be -3db if not accounted for as a rough guide; this could also be the problem.. I'd probably get someone experienced in designing 3 way passive xovers - or go active and then you can experiment as it sounds like they're not a documented design. There's potential in those drivers though & they should sound very good if you get it all dialled in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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