Speaker vs Room Size and Michael Fremer from Stereophile

[Guest ClassicalGuy]

This is in part another speaker verse room size post.

 

My listening room (my living room) is 6x4x2.4m and I am strongly considering either active ATC SCM50 or SCM100s. I’m sure the 100s are too big, but it’s really a question of can I get away with them or will it just sound awful – essentially, it’s the age-old problem of I don’t want to get the 50s and then think ‘damn, I could have got the 100s’.

 

Either way, as I was tossing up if the 100s were too big, I saw the Stereophile video of Michael Fremer’s home setup and he has Wilson Alexx speakers in a largish, but VERY cramped room. So now I’m thinking, how much does speaker/room size really matter? I don’t want to listen loud, I just want to listen at moderate levels and hear as much of the highs and lows (thus my preference for the 100s) as possible.

 

I know there are a million variables in this scenario, but just thought I’d share the video and see what opinions people might have.

 

 

[unclemack]

Well my rom is 5m x 3.6 with about 2.4m ceiling and I'm running a pair of Duntech Crown Prince and they sound great. They would probably prefer a bigger room but in here, I love 'em. 

[sjay]

I am running PMC MB2S-P's in a 5.5x4.5 dedicated room with treatments (panels & bass traps)  & they sound delightful

[Guest ClassicalGuy]

@unclemack Good to know, but wow, they are HUGE! I just checked the specs, 90kgs! I had been worried about moving 50-60kgs speakers! 

[Guest ClassicalGuy]

@sjay Now they are fantastic looking speakers! The SCM 100 have the same size bass driver, I know treatment would make a big difference, but do you have any trouble with the bass at all? I ask because I am moving soon and will have a dedicated listening room of about the same 6x4x2.5m size that I can add treatments to. 

[unclemack]

[mention=104826]unclemack[/mention] Good to know, but wow, they are HUGE! I just checked the specs, 90kgs! I had been worried about moving 50-60kgs speakers! 

I just happen to be immensely powerful. Ha ha


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[Ray H]

I have owned the scm100asl and had them in a small room perhaps 3 x 4 metres and there was no issue with bass bloat surprisingly. I suspect due the front porting and they don't have overdone boss considering the large bass driver.

 

Both good speakers but my advice is scm100 if you can, you won't regret it based on room interaction as they are quite low drag in this respect.

 

I thought there may be some pics of the room size in the Attached, but no dice unfortunately...

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Ray H

[Guest ClassicalGuy]

Thanks @Ray H , always nice to hear from an owner with experience. That is what I really hoped to hear. Due to the cost of either model, I'm eager to do it once, do it right, and not have any regrets. 

[maxspl]

With the 9 inch driver scm50 you may feel the need for a sub .

The 12 inch 100asl is much more of a full range speaker and should work well in a 6x4 room.

As you say , do it once and do it right.

[Guest ClassicalGuy]

Hmm... I never thought of that, I would definitely rather not have to later invest in a sub. Well, I doubt I would have thought of it and just would have missed the bass that was actually needed for better sound reproduction.

[sjay]

2 hours ago, ClassicalGuy said:

@sjay Now they are fantastic looking speakers! The SCM 100 have the same size bass driver, I know treatment would make a big difference, but do you have any trouble with the bass at all? I ask because I am moving soon and will have a dedicated listening room of about the same 6x4x2.5m size that I can add treatments to. 

Zero issues with bass bloat in that room since I added treatment. I did have multiple room issues with my PMC OB1i's when I first acquired the room as its all glass, concrete and tiles. the treatments fixed that and when the big boys came up for sale I fell in love with them after one song in my room.

 

the ATC 100's are very much on par with the MB2's from PMC. Both are world class monitors and designed for mid field listening. Please do throw a few dollars at treatments regardless of what speaker you settle on because in my experience treatments make the largest difference after the speakers.

[tubularbells]

An important point to also consider is typically larger speakers require a minimum listening distance in order for the multiple drivers to provide a cohesive soundstage (some manufacturers state a recommended minimum distance) so in my opinion its not necessarily the size of a speaker but more the ability for you to be able to sit closer in a small room. 

 

[Qwertyqaz]

Love the ATC sound may upgrade one day but really enjoying the SCM40's

[Guest ClassicalGuy]

2 hours ago, Tubularbells said:

(some manufacturers state a recommended minimum distance) so in my opinion its not necessarily the size of a speaker but more the ability for you to be able to sit closer in a small room. 

 

2

You are correct, in the manual ATC recommend for a hi-fi setup an equilateral triangle with a recommended distance between speakers (thus the listening position also) of 4 metres. I can't really match this as my room is only 4m wide, but it won't be too far off. 

[Addicted to music]

Rule it out of the equation and go cans.

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

I have Osborn Eclipse towers in a room around the same size as Unclemack's - the speakers are on the long wall (stupidly placed doors for stereo) so I have to sit as far back as possible - then things more or less come into place and they work.

 

It's not so much the speaker size as the intended image scale of the speaker that makes things work in this size of room. Some of the Wilson range, and quite a few of the US made speakers produce a large scale of sound that won't work in this type of situation and we do tend to think of those models when we say "big speaker".

You also have to consider the bass, and the setup of the Crown Prince and Osborn tower speakers allows them to make a scale of sound appropriate to a smaller room while the spacing of the bass drivers may allow for a more even bass than you might get from one large driver per channel: though it all depends on the room - and what is going in it, for example, do you have the floor space for two standmount speakers AND a couple of subs in possibly more intrusive positions?

 

The quoted -6dB point for the SCM100 is 35Hz (compare with 30Hz for the Crown Prince and around 25Hz for the Eclipse). That 35Hz is the same as the SCM50! With the active versions you'll hear a difference, but the actual bass performance should be similar frequency wise, so I would not rule out the SCM50 on that score. The bigger speaker should be better, but for other reasons.

 

And after two years with my current speakers I'd probably want a sub with either pair anyway...

 

[maxspl]

FYI...here is an interesting thread on pink fish media regarding SCM50 VS SCM100.

 

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=120812

[maxspl]

1 hour ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

I have Osborn Eclipse towers in a room around the same size as Unclemack's - the speakers are on the long wall (stupidly placed doors for stereo) so I have to sit as far back as possible - then things more or less come into place and they work.

 

It's not so much the speaker size as the intended image scale of the speaker that makes things work in this size of room. Some of the Wilson range, and quite a few of the US made speakers produce a large scale of sound that won't work in this type of situation and we do tend to think of those models when we say "big speaker".

You also have to consider the bass, and the setup of the Crown Prince and Osborn tower speakers allows them to make a scale of sound appropriate to a smaller room while the spacing of the bass drivers may allow for a more even bass than you might get from one large driver per channel: though it all depends on the room - and what is going in it, for example, do you have the floor space for two standmount speakers AND a couple of subs in possibly more intrusive positions?

 

The quoted -6dB point for the SCM100 is 35Hz (compare with 30Hz for the Crown Prince and around 25Hz for the Eclipse). That 35Hz is the same as the SCM50! With the active versions you'll hear a difference, but the actual bass performance should be similar frequency wise, so I would not rule out the SCM50 on that score. The bigger speaker should be better, but for other reasons.

 

And after two years with my current speakers I'd probably want a sub with either pair anyway...

 

 

The quoted spec for SCM100 at -6db is 32hz.

 

SCM50 -6db is 38hz.

 

http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/hi-fi/loudspeakers/classic-series/scm100/

 

ATC provide real measurements set up hanging from a roof in a warehouse and measured at 3.5 metres.

 

They don't just come up with some BS "in room  " response. ......in whose room , positioned how.???

 

Also where did you see 30hz spec for duntech  crown prince ?.

 

I owned a pair for 10 years....the manual shows a frequency response of 40hz to 20khz +/- 2db.....also measured at a distance of 3.5 metres. 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by MarkT

[Guest ClassicalGuy]

@MarkT Thanks so much for the link, I don't think I've seen it before. Much appreciated. 

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

3 hours ago, MarkT said:

 

The quoted spec for SCM100 at -6db is 32hz.

 

SCM50 -6db is 38hz.

 

http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/hi-fi/loudspeakers/classic-series/scm100/

 

ATC provide real measurements set up hanging from a roof in a warehouse and measured at 3.5 metres.

 

They don't just come up with some BS "in room  " response. ......in whose room , positioned how.???

 

Also where did you see 30hz spec for duntech  crown prince ?.

 

I owned a pair for 10 years....the manual shows a frequency response of 40hz to 20khz +/- 2db.....also measured at a distance of 3.5 metres. 

 

 

 

Happy to be corrected.

 

I worked through this quickly and didn't pick up that I was looking at different pages. The 30Hz measurement is for a speaker listed as just "Prince" on the Duntech website. Checking for "Crown Prince" I see a range of different figures quoted in different places - 38Hz, 40 Hz and 36 Hz - with no dB figure for reference. Possibly different builds or long gone review figures? I'd take the manual figure as a better basis. For 40Hz at +/-2dB, I'd expect around 32-34Hz to be the -6db point and therefore the real world comparison to the ATC figures. But it is all guesswork unless the same measurement is available for speaker comparison.

 

I appear to have the Anniversary edition of the SCM50 for the 35Hz figure. I can't see where I got the same figure for the SCM100 though! EDIT yes I do... see the figure for the passive version, while you have correctly quoted for the active version as in the original post.

 

http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/hi-fi/loudspeakers/anniversary-editions/scm50-anniversary/

 

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Eggcup The Daft

[Guest kab]

This bloke totally ignores speaker vs room size!

 

[A9X]

 

Oh good grief. If you believe anything Fremer says, well..... I bet my dog knows more about acoustics than him.

 

I do agree with the adage that there will need to be a distance at which the drivers cohere and if they're of a type that needs a long listening distance, mote than you can supply physically, they may not be the best design. Apart from that size is more what you can work with in the space, WAF etc. There is no hard and fast acoustic rule (based upon physics, not audiophile waffling) that says a speaker can only be a certain size in the relation to the room.

 

My surrounds use a 15" midbass (mains have 2ea) and I'll soon have a speaker with ATC mids that's more like the SCM150 but with no dome tweet.

On 24/09/2017 at 8:35 PM, kab said:

This bloke totally ignores speaker vs room size!

Go big or go home. Mine (when rebuilt) will probably be 2/3 the volume of those and were just fine in a 6x3.2x2.6m room. They are an effective point source from 300Hz up (just above Schroeder) so I can sit close.

[Guest ClassicalGuy]

Hi everyone, the comments, suggestions, and links were very helpful, and I have indeed ordered the SCM100 towers! 

 

I have no idea when they'll arrive yet, two months plus shipping time was suggested - but until ATC get the order from the dealer nothing can be confirmed and four months isn't unheard of.

 

Needless to say, I'm pretty excited and am glad to have a few months to sell off my current system without having to rush things. It also gives me time to look into XLR cables and power cables. I'm thinking of going with QED Reference 40s and RK Cables Furutech 2.5s for the speakers and DAC/Pre - any thoughts or opinions would always be appreciated. Thanks very much! 

[A9X]

16 minutes ago, ClassicalGuy said:

I have indeed ordered the SCM100 towers!

Congrats. About a decade back I nearly bought some scratched SCM150 or  whatever the model was back then (15, 3"mid and 1"dome) which is high praise from me. I really hope you enjoy them.

16 minutes ago, ClassicalGuy said:

any thoughts or opinions would always be appreciated

Don't waste your money. Will make zero difference.

[Guest ClassicalGuy]

@A9X Thanks very much, I can't wait, just don't know how long I'll be waiting yet. 

 

I'll put you down for no money on cables then. I'm happy to run with that, I figure the QEDs and Furutechs would be about $1400 all up. Not ruling out Blue Jeans Cable or Mogami which would be about $100 with shipping. Just don't want to invest in the speakers and then sell myself short on cables if it would make a difference.