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Hello all, only recently joined the forum so mods please move or delete if in the wrong spot.

 

I will try to keep it short but will probably be long winded!

 

In short: my audio gear is old, my hearing is getting worse and I would like to explore options to keep me going for a while longer.

 

I mainly these days watch movies and rarely listen to music on the lounge room system so am focusing more on HT. I find I am struggling to clearly hear vocals in movies without having it cranked right up then get overwhelmed by the rest of the sound effects.

 

18mths-ish ago got a new amp, Yamaha RX-V379, the basic, no bells and whistles model. Prior to this had an RX-V659 (in the shed now) and I dont need 40 million different setting options so just went with a basic model that supported 4K passthrough and had hdmi connections.

Teamed the new amp with the Samsung UBD-K8500 4K bluray player and 4K 65" Sony TV. Have never actually played a bluray in it lol, as I use plex media server to stream to the bluray then hdmi to the amp then hdmi to the tv. 

So that's the basics of that side of it

Speaker set up is 5.1

Centre : B&W LCR60 S3

Sub: B&W ASW 600

L&R: B&W DM 220i

Rear: currently dodgy old speakers from an old micro hifi

 

The DM 220i's I have had since new, probably going on 25-ish years, they have had some new drivers and tweeters fitted over the years due to abuse on my part. Fast blow fuses got replaced with rolled up aluminium foil or nails at parties :(  At the moment 1 tweeter is not working but everything else appears to be, but they are very dull sounding to the point of sounding muffled. I need to replace these.

The other speakers were in storage for about 7 or 8 years and I am reasonably happy with them although a larger centre speaker would be nice. 

I also have a pair of B&W CCM 80 in ceiling speakers in storage which have only had about 6 months of intermittent use. These will end up being the rear speakers

 

I am wondering if I should try to pick up another LCR60 S3 (centre) and use it along with the one I have as the L & R speakers and pick up a new, larger centre. Will 2 of the LCR60 S3's do the job as a L & R in a home theatre setup?

 

Or, do I just replace the L & R and keep my existing centre? Budget at this stage is to try and fix it for as least amount of money as possible!

 

Called into the local hifi place today and saw the latest lot of B&W floor standers, tiny compared to the DM 220i's but no doubt sound a hell of a lot better.

 

Any suggestions or ideas greatly appreciated 

 

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@swervyn  it sounds like you have some good basics there.

 

b&W make some pretty good speakers and am pretty sure with a bit of augmentation to your system you should be able to get your main issue sorted where as you say you are 

 

3 hours ago, swervyn said:

struggling to clearly hear vocals in movies without having it cranked right up then get overwhelmed by the rest of the sound effects.

 

firstly its a little bit of a misconception that the LCRs make a good centre speaker. they do if used vertically. i.e. you have your centre, front and mains all standing up as LCRs. LCRs  however  like the B&W ones here dont unfortunately if laid on their side work that well as centre speakers. if you like try this yourself where siting back in your main listening position with someone talking through your centre speaker get someone to rotate the LCR from horizontal to vertical and back again and listen how much what you hear the sound change ! 

 

the LCR you have though 100% its a great idea to relocate it to L&R mains duties by buying one other. and i see one is on the net on eBay usa for sale and can be landed around $500 which is a bargain. 

 

at the absolute minimum i would go something like the htm61 note the vertically aligned tweeter midrange - this is what you want in a centre speaker for the best vocals 

https://www.apollohifi.com.au/speakers/centre-speakers/b-w-htm61-series-2-centre-speaker-1752.html

 

for surrounds you could use your in ceilings or use some newer B&W surrounds if needed depending what can fit in,

 

all certainly something your local B&W local retailer should have.

 

you AVR is VERY basic and while have gone for simplicity, as far as amps in it go its quite step back am sorry to say than the previous yamaha. you had. and if improving on speakers you would need to upgrade from this base model to something more suitable to drive speakers end up with. your retailer buying B&Ws from should be able to assist on something suitable.

 

I hope this helps :)

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I have the same problem trying hard to hear the voices and then when action starts its too loud. I fixed this problem a fair bit bye going into settings and turning up the centre channel only output now all good

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A pair of 602 or something from the same range would probably work well with your center and not break the bank. They are nice speakers and either them or your suggestion of adding more LCR might also work, I have had the 602 but never tried your center as a stereo pair.

If you can get all the speakers from the same range it does sound better although it's not the deal breaker that some might have you believe.

The voices low is more to do with the way the tracks are mixed rather than your hearing deteriorating. It's always bothered me. Making your center bigger won't really help you can just turn the volume up on the one you have but that gives you a channel imbalance.

You can check if either your amp or dvd player has a Dynamic range or Night mode because that will effectively quite the part of the sound that increases the effects but deadens the voices, perhaps you could google it to learn more.

The only other thing I might mention is that you could perhaps look for a speaker that is a little more treble friendly than the B&W but that will increase cost.

As for the center speaker sounding different on it's side I have no experience with that so you may as well try it. I wish I had one hear to give it a test.

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21 hours ago, :) al said:

 

firstly its a little bit of a misconception that the LCRs make a good centre speaker. they do if used vertically. i.e. you have your centre, front and mains all standing up as LCRs. LCRs  however  like the B&W ones here dont unfortunately if laid on their side work that well as centre speakers. 

 

the LCR you have though 100% its a great idea to relocate it to L&R mains duties by buying one other. and i see one is on the net on eBay usa for sale and can be landed around $500 which is a bargain. 

 

at the absolute minimum i would go something like the htm61 note the vertically aligned tweeter midrange - this is what you want in a centre speaker for the best vocals 

https://www.apollohifi.com.au/speakers/centre-speakers/b-w-htm61-series-2-centre-speaker-1752.html

 

for surrounds you could use your in ceilings or use some newer B&W surrounds if needed depending what can fit in,

 

you AVR is VERY basic and while have gone for simplicity, as far as amps in it go its quite step back am sorry to say than the previous yamaha. you had. and if improving on speakers you would need to upgrade from this base model to something more suitable to drive speakers end up with. your retailer buying B&Ws from should be able to assist on something suitable.

 

I hope this helps :)

 

That helps a lot thankyou. I had heard the LCR sounds better used vertically but have never tried, in fact the store had the current equivalent B&W model standing vertically (but not wired up)

 

Sounds like the cheapest option will be to get another LCR for the L&R and upgrade the centre. With the centre you linked to having the vertically aligned tweeter & mid does this mean that the speaker will perform just as well horizontally or vertically? Just for aesthetics would most likely prefer horizontally but cabinet will be built to suit.

 

And yes, while the AVR seemed like a quick fix at the time I understand it wasnt the best choice but I had a new tv and wanted it working then & there lol. I would still be using the old one but lack of hdmi sort of killed that option. It is now an expensive radio in the man cave.

 

21 hours ago, richard260 said:

I have the same problem trying hard to hear the voices and then when action starts its too loud. I fixed this problem a fair bit bye going into settings and turning up the centre channel only output now all good

 

Yes, have increased centre channel but as Russell noted, i now find the imbalance annoys me!

 

18 hours ago, russell66 said:

A pair of 602 or something from the same range would probably work well with your center and not break the bank. They are nice speakers and either them or your suggestion of adding more LCR might also work, I have had the 602 but never tried your center as a stereo pair.

If you can get all the speakers from the same range it does sound better although it's not the deal breaker that some might have you believe.

The voices low is more to do with the way the tracks are mixed rather than your hearing deteriorating. It's always bothered me. Making your center bigger won't really help you can just turn the volume up on the one you have but that gives you a channel imbalance.

You can check if either your amp or dvd player has a Dynamic range or Night mode because that will effectively quite the part of the sound that increases the effects but deadens the voices, perhaps you could google it to learn more.

The only other thing I might mention is that you could perhaps look for a speaker that is a little more treble friendly than the B&W but that will increase cost.

As for the center speaker sounding different on it's side I have no experience with that so you may as well try it. I wish I had one hear to give it a test.

 

unfortunately my hearing is deteriorating, 30 odd years of working with machinery catches up eventually but I also think you are right with how the audio track has been mixed. Some sound quite different to others. The bulk of my movies are digital format so I may need to look into the best audio output I can convert them to but until I get the speakers right it seems pointless.

Amp does have dynamic range and is set to max which produces audio without adjusting the dynamic range, maybe I need to set that to min?

 

 

Thanks all for comments & ideas, doing lots of googling and searching and today came across a pair of BOWERS AND WILKINS (B&W) 683 Series 2 Floorstanding Speakers on another forum for sale in TAS for 2K. Might be a bit much but got me frothing at the mouth as do the classifieds on here. Would be nice to have a lazy 10K to just splash out but alas, that is not the case.

 

On another note, quite happy to build my own boxes (cabinetmaker) if there is a better option available

 

Thanks again

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12 minutes ago, swervyn said:

That helps a lot thankyou. I had heard the LCR sounds better used vertically but have never tried, in fact the store had the current equivalent B&W model standing vertically (but not wired up)

indeed LCRs are best used standing up :)

 

13 minutes ago, swervyn said:

Sounds like the cheapest option will be to get another LCR for the L&R and upgrade the centre. With the centre you linked to having the vertically aligned tweeter & mid does this mean that the speaker will perform just as well horizontally or vertically? Just for aesthetics would most likely prefer horizontally but cabinet will be built to suit.

 

yes in the case of the particular centre speaker quoted it has the tweeter and mid range vertically aligned and meant to be used lying down as centre speakers do. i would not use them standing up on their side

14 minutes ago, swervyn said:

And yes, while the AVR seemed like a quick fix at the time I understand it wasnt the best choice but I had a new tv and wanted it working then & there lol. I would still be using the old one but lack of hdmi sort of killed that option. It is now an expensive radio in the man cave

would be worth considering an upgrade.... :) 

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If your prepared to make the boxes yourself then that opens up a lot of opportunity because if you search the web there are many great DIY designs, but I warn you if you start down this path it can became a time consuming mine field just to work out what you want to build let alone building them.

This site is awesome and I am going to build at least one pair of these myself. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm

There is a lot written about his designs and there are people on SNA that have them and rate them, of course your still taking a chance as you can't hear before you buy. Theoretically if you find his cheaper designs they should easily out perform anything off the shelf. I though 3 Ellam flex two ways across the front should be awesome, equally there are cheaper designs that i,m sure would sound great, maybe even three of his 3 way designs.

The other place to look is perhaps here http://www.justblair.co.uk/blog/137-diy-proac-response-25.html

I've had a pair of these and they are awesome, the only thing to note is they have a huge amount of base so they need some space. You can still get the actual drivers from speaker bits I think and the cabinets are simple. You would need to either lay one on its side or work out some form of center speaker though. Perhaps one form the Troels site may work.

Sure there is something to thing about there if you have not come across those sites before. Be warned though I spend more time working out my DIY project these days than I do listening to music or watching movies.

 

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20 minutes ago, Mord said:

Pretty sure I have a lcr 60s just sitting idle
If you live anywhere near newcastle you can have it

Sent from my SM-J320ZN using Tapatalk
 

 

@swervyn  there you go !!!!

 

very nice of you mord, even if no where near newcastle am sure swervyn could ship across :)

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1 hour ago, Mord said:

Pretty sure I have a lcr 60s just sitting idle
If you live anywhere near newcastle you can have it

Sent from my SM-J320ZN using Tapatalk
 

Goodness, very generous of you! Thank you

 

Alas am nowhere near Newcastle (TAS) although my neighbour is a removalist and backloads to & from mainland weekly/fortnightly so I could check with him which would save the inconvenience of trying to box it up which is a hassle.

Keep him in mind for anyone else needing gear to/from Tas. "Bass Straight Removals".

 

Is it the same model as the one I have though (S3)? not worried about colour as can respray if needed. 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

WP_20170902_09_14_39_Rich.jpg

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1 hour ago, swervyn said:

Goodness, very generous of you! Thank you

 

Alas am nowhere near Newcastle (TAS) although my neighbour is a removalist and backloads to & from mainland weekly/fortnightly so I could check with him which would save the inconvenience of trying to box it up which is a hassle.

Keep him in mind for anyone else needing gear to/from Tas. "Bass Straight Removals".

 

Is it the same model as the one I have though (S3)? not worried about colour as can respray if needed. 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

WP_20170902_09_14_39_Rich.jpg

@swervyn  just looking at that shot the right top red binding post looks a bit loose... i would tighten up and make sure the connecting strip is secured well under it...looks a bit off/loose. could in itself be causing some of your centre vocal clarity issue... but might not and might still be working just fine hanging in there  ... just ... :D 

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6 hours ago, :) al said:

@swervyn  just looking at that shot the right top red binding post looks a bit loose... i would tighten up and make sure the connecting strip is secured well under it...looks a bit off/loose. could in itself be causing some of your centre vocal clarity issue... but might not and might still be working just fine hanging in there  ... just ... :D 

 

 good pickup on the binding post! It was very loose. Which now tightened indeed seems to have improved the sound from the centre speaker, unless I am imagining it lol, plus have now positioned centre vertically

The other day when listening I felt there was quite a difference in output of the two main drivers, one sounded more like it was doing the bass work and the other more midrange. (which may be how it is supposed to work?)To me it seems to be more balanced now? but maybe i am dreaming

Another thing which I find interesting: I use plex media player and stream to the bluray player then through the amp. Of late there has been a lot of "clipping" right on when there has been an audio peak like an explosion and gunshots etc, only maybe 1/2 a second if that, but has been driving me nuts for weeks. Tons of googling and changing settings had not fixed the issue. The other night I was testing a movie clip and it was really bad, tested today after tightening binding posts and voila, no clipping, same movie, same spot. What are the chances a loose binding post could of been causing the clipping issue? (it wasn't just the centre dropping out, but all sound dropped out although all the speaker icons remained lit on the amp display)

 

Thanks Mord, what a bummer is not the same. I think yours is slightly larger one,  150w vs 120w. Not really sure how it would pair up with mine but others may have a better idea?

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, swervyn said:

Thanks Mord, what a bummer is not the same. I think yours is slightly larger one,  150w vs 120w. Not really sure how it would pair up with mine but others may have a better idea?

 

swervyn if can accomodate vertical LCR positioned in your setup... I would grab the LCR600 S3 as would make a beaut centre speakers .... as long as can use vertically

 

it is model up from yours and would mean could use as single centre speaker.

 

then i would grab that other lcr60s3 matching yours on eBay at $500 landed and you would have one FANTASTIC front stage ! 

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/B-W-BOWERS-AND-WILKINS-LCR-60-S3-CENTER-CHANNEL-SPEAKER-/132109054366?epid=1119731901&hash=item1ec250319e:g:tgAAAOSwuxFYsdEv

 

you wont be able to buy for $500 landed a better set of mains or centre ! :)

 

2 hours ago, swervyn said:

Another thing which I find interesting: I use plex media player and stream to the bluray player then through the amp. Of late there has been a lot of "clipping" right on when there has been an audio peak like an explosion and gunshots etc, only maybe 1/2 a second if that, but has been driving me nuts for weeks. Tons of googling and changing settings had not fixed the issue. The other night I was testing a movie clip and it was really bad, tested today after tightening binding posts and voila, no clipping, same movie, same spot. What are the chances a loose binding post could of been causing the clipping issue? (it wasn't just the centre dropping out, but all sound dropped out although all the speaker icons remained lit on the amp display)

 

 

this really worries me ! 

 

perhaps the posts have fixed this but wiht the lower powered AVR you are using now it is a bit of a risk and could end up blowing a driver. typically its tweeters that go first with clipping. usually signs need to back off as power supply is not keeping up wiht power being drawn off by the speakers resulting in clipping.

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Well confusion is reigning supreme here :emot-bang:

 

Too much reading and not enough money :(

 

I am going to pass on the lcr 60 from the US as I feel one will (should, maybe, hopefully) come up locally at some stage (Aus wide) and maybe even the same colour.

 

I do appreciate your offer Mord but I might try to pick up a larger dedicated centre as this is something I want to get right and not have to change at a later date. A new cabinet will be built to house the gear so I want to only do it once (for now anyway). In all honesty second hand audio gear is not something I have ever considered before as I always bought new. After reading lots of the forum I now see it is a very common thing to buy second hand gear. Knowing my luck something will go horribly wrong though lol. Thanks again but you will for sure get a few bucks for that.

 

17 hours ago, swervyn said:

 

 good pickup on the binding post! It was very loose. Which now tightened indeed seems to have improved the sound from the centre speaker, unless I am imagining it lol, plus have now positioned centre vertically

The other day when listening I felt there was quite a difference in output of the two main drivers, one sounded more like it was doing the bass work and the other more midrange. (which may be how it is supposed to work?)To me it seems to be more balanced now? but maybe i am dreaming

 

 

Seems I was dreaming, further research has uncovered that the two drivers do have different functions.

 

17 hours ago, :) al said:

 

this really worries me ! 

 

perhaps the posts have fixed this but wiht the lower powered AVR you are using now it is a bit of a risk and could end up blowing a driver. typically its tweeters that go first with clipping. usually signs need to back off as power supply is not keeping up wiht power being drawn off by the speakers resulting in clipping.

 

Not sure if "clipping" was the correct term I used, meaning audio cuts out completely. Watched a movie last night and no audio cutting out although was not a particularly action packed one.

 

 

On another note, pulled the non working tweeter out of the DM220i's and it is stuffed-zero resistance and the voice coil was frazzled. But have located a second hand spare for about $100US or even a set of DM110i in Australia for $182 https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/torquay/other-electronics-computers/b-w-bowers-wilkins-dm110i-speakers-england/1150650092  . I am assuming the only difference between the 2 models is the 220i has an extra driver and the tweeter would be the same.?

 

Is it worth repairing the 220i's or just move on and sell as a project for someone else? I understand a 20+ year old set of speakers will most likely not be well suited for todays digital age of HT

 

Now I have started exploring the options of second hand gear I am finding things like this:

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/avalon/speakers/bowers-wilkins-b-w-cm-centre-speaker-cmc/1142839645

 

and this:

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/dalkeith/speakers/bowers-wilkins-b-w-htm61-centre-speaker-black-ash-/1142381397

 

 

thanks again, sorry for all the questions, will open a new topic for my next lot of queries!

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9 minutes ago, swervyn said:

 

remember what i said about vertically aligned tweeter mid range. both these will be a step back from your LCRs used vertically.

 

10 minutes ago, swervyn said:

Not sure if "clipping" was the correct term I used, meaning audio cuts out completely. Watched a movie last night and no audio cutting out although was not a particularly action packed one.

 

yep that can be clipping, it can also be the amp shutting down.

 

no real need to start another thread. just keep going with this one ?

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42 minutes ago, :) al said:

 

remember what i said about vertically aligned tweeter mid range. both these will be a step back from your LCRs used vertically.

 

 

 yep, I remembered after I posted the links and realised they had no separate mid range! None of them are V2, most likely why they are being sold.

thanks al

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No worries swervyn
Offer is always there ,as far as buying preloved ,I had the same doubts as well but as my taste went to dearer gear I could only afford 2nd hand now its all I buy
Some great bargains out there [emoji5]

Sent from my SM-J320ZN using Tapatalk

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  • 3 months later...

Just refreshing this thread as it came up on a google search I did!

Managed to pick up another LCR60 S3 quite a while ago for a good price on Gumtree and it now does the L & R duties with my other one. Centre atm is the old DM 220i that has the working tweeter! Sub is still the ASW 600, rears are the same also

So, still living in pleb land but learning a lot thanks to the forums. 

Really finding that movies (90% on this system) are missing the bass. I like to listen to them quite loud and finding it "shouty"? I am guessing this is due to the LCR60 S3's not having the ability to perform at this level? Ok at lower volumes but really lacking otherwise. I am not expecting miracles from them, just need to be told that yes, they wont perform at higher volumes if you want a decent bass output. Then I will have a good excuse for upgradeitus. Maybe they will end up as rears. I realise my amp is minimal for what I want, any upgrades will be based on what second hand gear comes up first! As usual, budget is minimal. In saying that, any suggestions on the very first thing one should consider to upgrade? 

And thanks to @:) al I have not had any "clipping",  or audio dropout since he picked up on the loose binding post.

B&W 602S3 that have come up locally on Gumtree bought me back to this post thanks to @russell66 recommendation
 

 

edit:

 

Plus now I want a DAC

And an integrated AMP

And some nearfield desktop speakers

And a big centre speaker

And some horns

And dual subs

And a 4K projector

And a new big mofo AV amp

And some nice headphones

And a nice headphone amp

And some big juicy mofo floorstanders

And lots of other stuff

 

Edited by swervyn
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26 minutes ago, swervyn said:

Really finding that movies (90% on this system) are missing the bass. I like to listen to them quite loud and finding it "shouty"? I am guessing this is due to the LCR60 S3's not having the ability to perform at this level? Ok at lower volumes but really lacking otherwise

good to know things worked out with the lcr. but the lack of things and having to crank loud and finding it shouty is possibly due to a few things. firstly the centre speaker is THE most importance and loosing volume of air can move by stepping back from the lcr to small stand mount from some years back would have taken a hit in the output stakes as a lot of output does come from the centre speaker. possible to procure another lcr ? 

 

rather than hanging out till can get "dual subs" get one for starters. best can afford will take a lot of load off the speakers :)

 

both will help things no end :)

 

ps its possible the yammy avr is also running out of puff, but the sub will help there until something can be remedied.

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