AV Advice Needed

[Primare Knob]

Passthrough is a feature that does nothing more than excepting an input signal and pass it on as an output signal without any further interactions of the unit. Whether or not you turn on your TV has nothing to do with it. There might be small temporarily disruption in the audio signal when turning on or of your TV since HDMI likes to shake hands with everything.  Understand that you might need the TV turned on with DVD, Blu-Ray or USB SSD playback for access the interactive menu settings, especially with the USD SSD playback option.

 

Movie Codecs per Format

DVD used Dolby Digital or DTS

Blu-Ray used Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master

Multichannel Music  output into LPCM

 

Your Cambridge Azur 752BD will decode any format that you request. It can also output 5.1 channels in the analogue domain. Yes it can do volume control but it won’t be the best. You can also output 5.1 analogue channels into your AVR/Pre-Pro and use the volume control on that which should give you better results. You could also use a pure analogue multi-channel pre amplifier but they are rare. No HDMI needed this way.

[Primare Knob]

Processing and doubling up. Understand that each item can perform similar task but that they are designed with different purposes in mind and all related to price. Your Source player’s mayor purpose is reading disc and most likely 2 channel audio. In the specs they state “Dedicated 2 channel stereo analogue and (non dedicated) 7.1 multichannel analogue RCA” . It can do more than that but these are more an afterthought. An AVR is not only a glorified switch box. If you don’t need to switch between multiple equipment, you might not need it, but if you do it will do a great job and be user friendly. It is also a Pre Amplifier, a Power Amplifier, DAC and multichannel management system (DSP). As you can see it needs to do a lot (for the money). But it is also designed to do so. None of these things are an afterthought but all are built to a price point. Some put more into the power section while other put more into the DAC section but all will put a good amount of computing power into the decoding and multichannel management system because that is its mayor purpose. Going into separates, more effort will be put into the Pre Amplifier section of the Pre-Pro and more effort will be put into the Power section of a power amplifier. That’s why you will pay more for separates than for an AVR.

[Primare Knob]

5.1 means 5 channels and one powered subwoofer channel (LFE). With 4 channels you will be one channel short which might not be a problem with multi-channel music (using Phantom Center), but with movies you do want to use a good center channel setup since there is a lot of dialogue in movies. You could still use a phantom center channel for movies, but the quality will highly depend on the quality of the multichannel management system (DSP).

 

Please be careful buying equipment without hearing it. Especially when you plan to cut out the pre amplifier function. The success of this path is highly dependent on the synergy between the two. I have tried this myself and a Pre Amp does add its value. A digital Pre-Amp as used in the 752BD “The 752BD uses a bit reduction volume system to alter the volume output.” can degrade the audio signal dramatically, most noticeable with low volumes. Essential what you are doing is turning a 24 bit signal into a lower bit signal, and this can turn out to be even less than a 16 bit CD signal.

 

 

[cwt]

4 hours ago, Primare Knob said:

Good point and certainly don't attenuate too much and one oppo posted a new firmware for at one point ; And Bob Pariseau at avs forum addressed once but don't ask me when  Must ask ; do you know if the CA wolfsohn dacs are the upsampling type like many out there ?

 

Quote

One advantage of using the Sabre DACs is that they have the option of digitally attenuating the output, basically providing a fully digital volume control. Now, if you are alarmed by this then let me explain before you dismiss the whole idea immediately. When a digital signal is attenuated in the digital domain, this just means we reduce the numeric value of each sample. Simple enough. But, that must mean we then lose resolution, doesn't it? It certainly would if you did it in the 16 bit world of CD, but the trick is that the Sabre DAC converts everything to 32 bit, and only then attenuates. Every extra bit gives you 6dB of extra headroom, so the additional 16 bits will theoretically give you a whopping 96dB of extra dynamic range. Obviously, you will get closer to the electronic's noise floor when you start attenuating the signal that much, but Sabre claim a signal to noise ratio of 120dB for these DACs, so you should be able to turn the volume down by a good 20 or 30dB before you run into the first hint of trouble. This means that, as long as you don't attenuate by more than that, you should have a virtually perfect preamp in the OPPO, enabling you to drive your power amp directly. And even if the signal is degraded a little bit: remember that a traditional analogue preamp isn’t perfect either

One thing I see is certain ce's cutting back on dsp processing power to manage all that bass management;  codec decoding and dsp matrix upscaling not to mention hdmi versions as well. Onkyo is a prime example dropping audyssey for the current proprietary no license fee "'solution "" So many thought 1 dsp processing chip is enough ; both my pre pro;s have dual chipsets and they are not even object surround decoders .. If you want to process dirac at 192hz not 48 or 96hz like most others it requires real horsepower..Anyway that felt

better rant over  

Excuse the attachments please cant delete them

Edited September 3, 2017 by cwt

[betty boop]

I've never been a fan of using these pieces a pre's quite frankly owned both the 751 and 752. the biggest issue is what happens with the analog outs and bass management which is a real issue with multichannel analogs. and this is beyond even worrying about how the pre stage is being managed. as I have also said a few times the hdmi in on the 752 is very basic and not one id recommend using. bob p on avs has posted many extended pieces on all the in and outs of using analog outs. and especially as a pre for multichannel in my opinion its not for the faint hearted. 

 

[Digital Man]

Hi Primare Knob, Well I did say that I was new to all of this, fret not, I am definitely not going to rush this, it will take as long as it takes, many thanks for the insight into how this all fits together, it is hard to demo this type of system in Albury, one hifi shop left and he ain't set up for surround sound, jb hifi is even worse, judging by this new insight I would be wise to stick with a ave as opposed to a 5 channel power amp ? Thanks

[betty boop]

7 minutes ago, LinearTracker said:

Hi Primare Knob, Well I did say that I was new to all of this, fret not, I am definitely not going to rush this, it will take as long as it takes, many thanks for the insight into how this all fits together, it is hard to demo this type of system in Albury, one hifi shop left and he ain't set up for surround sound, jb hifi is even worse, judging by this new insight I would be wise to stick with a ave as opposed to a 5 channel power amp ? Thanks

 

hi LT an AVR would be a simpler approach, and likely get you there with the 752, but i suspect you need to raise the bar a tad, the very old units you are looking at AVR wise are likely just going to be a world of grief in one way or other. look atleast one generation later. the 752 is a lovely player just deserves just a little better. if cant afford wait up... all in good time.

 

in the mean time I see you have an 2ch integrated amp. keep using the 752 with the integrated 2ch amp.

 

 

as a note the 2ch amp will likely do 2ch better as well, but that is another story but if wanting to explore keep and integrating as part of system sing out. 

 

[Digital Man]

Hi Al, Okay, so I gather that the power amp option isn't the way to go after all, I'm fine with that, so, if I'm looking at a Cambridge audio ave, would the Cambridge audio 551R V2 be the generational starting point ? or younger, I would like to keep the budget at around $1,000 but I would stretch it to $1,500 for the right unit. Thanks

[betty boop]

13 minutes ago, LinearTracker said:

Hi Al, Okay, so I gather that the power amp option isn't the way to go after all, I'm fine with that, so, if I'm looking at a Cambridge audio ave, would the Cambridge audio 551R V2 be the generational starting point ? or younger, I would like to keep the budget at around $1,000 but I would stretch it to $1,500 for the right unit. Thanks

 

hi LT the 551rv2 brand new were $1500 so cant see why couldnt get one for $1000. my only bother is how on earth would you know you are actually getting the v2 version as you say and I think you are right they literally look alike ! 

 

I note there is a 751r v2 being sold by grabbit which his actually the eBay side of klappav and that is selling for $1699. I bet you if you got in touch with them they would let you have it for $1500 delivered.  

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Cambridge-Audio-Azur-751R-V2-7-1-AV-Receiver-Black-Ex-Demo-FREE-SHIPPING-/282532767812?hash=item41c843e844:g:8REAAOSwCmZZR0ca

 

especially since they have the brand new model on special here marked down from $2999 to $2199.

https://klappav.com.au/products/cxr-120

 

 

[Snoopy8]

1 minute ago, LinearTracker said:

Hi Al, Okay, so I gather that the power amp option isn't the way to go after all, I'm fine with that, so, if I'm looking at a Cambridge audio ave, would the Cambridge audio 551R V2 be the generational starting point ? or younger, I would like to keep the budget at around $1,000 but I would stretch it to $1,500 for the right unit. Thanks

Without an audition, I know it will be an act of faith to go for the Anthem AVR that I mentioned earlier.  It is a previous model, without the latest movie formats but it is still one of the better AVRs around.  The ad has been up for a while, so you may be able to get it cheaper than advertised.

 

For a 1 box solution doing both music and movies, I have no hesitation in recommending the MRX-710.

[cwt]

35 minutes ago, al said:

I've never been a fan of using these pieces a pre's quite frankly owned both the 751 and 752. the biggest issue is what happens with the analog outs and bass management which is a real issue with multichannel analogs. and this is beyond even worrying about how the pre stage is being managed. as I have also said a few times the hdmi in on the 752 is very basic and not one id recommend using. bob p on avs has posted many extended pieces on all the in and outs of using analog outs. and especially as a pre for multichannel in my opinion its not for the faint hearted. 

 

That's another problem with some avr;s these days Al [ and  I agree bass management is important] brands like Arcam have only 1 global crossover setting for all your bed surrounds and per pair variable for the heights  ; not a decent variation depending on your surrounds low freq rolloff  

 

If these lower echelon avr's had decent room eq an avr would be a no brainer to me and should be to LT too ; that's a hint LT

[Bunno77]

3 minutes ago, al said:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Cambridge-Audio-Azur-751R-V2-7-1-AV-Receiver-Black-Ex-Demo-FREE-SHIPPING-/282532767812?hash=item41c843e844:g:8REAAOSwCmZZR0ca

A GREAT option and worth spending the top of your budget or even a little above budget but as Al said you will most likely be able to twist their arm. Getting a better multi channel power amp in this price range that betters this is a hard task. Having the benefits of it being an AVR is a bonus. My experience with the 751 was great and I would gladly own it myself. I did sell a few as a retailer.

 

I stand by my suggestion earlier and have actually tried it, though my 5 channel power amp did retail for closer to $10k when new.

The 752bd as a pre is unexpectedly good in 2 and 5 channel mode and by far betters my own previous flagship Denon and a little better than my 551 v2. I myself wouldn't have thought so but my experimentation proved me wrong.

 

An AVR is a little more user friendly and has the benefit of hdmi switching etc though it may not be needed in your scenario as described in your opening post. HDMI switching can be done via your tv if needed

 

I found when using my 752BD connected to my TV for music (streamed, cd, sacd, pure audio, bluray music video, chromecast via HDMI) , movies was great and my 2 AVRs were left disconnected. But this is just my experience and my opinion and I was lucky to have a fair bit of hardware (amps, dacs, sources, speakers) laying around to experiment with. It is a lot harder to choose when sight unseen/unheard.

 

Best of luck with it and maybe even make an excuse to go to Sydney or Melbourne to see things in action. I know Lifestyle Store would be more than happy to demo such setups for you.

[Bunno77]

And if you are interested in doing any mods the oppomod psu for the 752BD made an amazing increase in performance in both audio and video. I couldn't believe it but the picture quality was a big difference. Better colour, better blacks and it all looked sharper. I am guessing it removed some sort of dc ripple on the ac. It was like I bought a new TV. 

 

LINEAR POWER MODULE SE http://www.oppomod.com/ 

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/90568-sold-fs-oppomod-linear-power-supply-se-edition-for-cambridge-audio-bd751752-230v/

There is also a clock module upgrade but I haven't tried it. I would like to though. Installation was a few screws and clip in connectors. Only tool needed was a Phillips head.

[Primare Knob]

4 hours ago, LinearTracker said:

Hi Primare Knob, Well I did say that I was new to all of this, fret not, I am definitely not going to rush this, it will take as long as it takes, many thanks for the insight into how this all fits together, it is hard to demo this type of system in Albury, one hifi shop left and he ain't set up for surround sound, jb hifi is even worse, judging by this new insight I would be wise to stick with a ave as opposed to a 5 channel power amp ? Thanks

At this point in time yes. A good power amp has its means, but works in synergy with your speakers which you don't seem to have. An integrated amp which can be used as a power amp might also be an option if you are looking to replace your current amplifier.

 

When you are coming from tubes, multi-channel will likely sound very harsh and dry. It will take some time to get used to, and even then it might not be your cup of tea.

I would start with a cheap AVR. Something to play with and test what you actually end up using and which formats you tend to favor. it will not give you any good quality but you will get an impression of where money is spend with this stuff and what you might need to spend to get it to your satisfaction. Give it a year of learning and testing and by that time you might even have a nice budget that will give you what you like or you might decide that it isn't worth pursuing.

 

Don't get me wrong about the digital volume control. It can work and you can bypass the AVR or Pre-Pro. That would be my ideal setup as well. But in order to not degrade the bit depth you would need a 64bit volume control to work with low volumes which so far I have only seen on computers. And then there is the mix and match of a DAC with a power amplifier which doesn't always work either. I love the concept, but in reality you need to spend a lot of time trying and testing. There are some proven concepts though. In reality even the best 24 bit DAC's won't output a true 24bit signal due to signal noise. There are calculators on the web that can tell you how many bit's you loose due to noise or volume attenuation. You would actually need a good 32bit DAC to be able to output a true 24 bit signal.

 

As in any setup, speakers have the greatest impact on sound quality. If you can source 5-6 identical speakers, they would be easier to sell without a big loss than any multi-channel equipment.

 

I love multi channel and movies, and has always been my mayor focus. But the truth is, that for 70% of the time I listen to music from a position that isn't in the sweet spot. A good stereo setup can produce a nice room filling sound that is still enjoyable from different positions. Multi channel won't be able to do that and requires you to sit down to make the most of it.

 

[Digital Man]

Hi All, Well, I thought that I was clear at the beginning of my post, as stated, I am new to surround sound, my intention is to move fully into the digital domain, I am selling all of my analogue gear and related media, some already sold and the rest will follow, I am wanting from this new system to have the best possible audio playback, but not keen to spend thousands on one component, so more than likely  I will be sourcing secondhand components, movie surround sound is a secondary priority compared to audio, I am also very keen to experience sacd, dvd-a and bluray audio surround sound as well and of course it will have to be good at stereo playback as well, I am still very interested in the power amp situation as opposed to a hdmi connection, one thing that I do not want is to have the screen on for playback of audio only, which I assume will be the case with a hdmi connection ? I have also found out today that with the Cambridge Audio 752BD if you use hdmi for audio you will also bypass the 5 wolfenson dacs inside the unit plus this  Note to Audiophiles: If you use a Blu-ray Disc player that incorporates the ability to listen SACDs or DVD-Audio Discs and the Blu-ray Disc player has very good or excellent DACs (Digital-to-Analog Audio Converters) that may be better than the ones in your home theater receiver, it is actually desirable to connect the 5.1/7.1-channel analog output connections to a home theater receiver, instead of the HDMI connection (at least for audio). I have spoken today to Carlton Audio, they also recommend using a power amp and again they also recommend to also use a processor with it as well for superior audio playback as opposed to hdmi or even analogue with a avr. Thanks.

[powerav]

As stated before it sounds like the Anthem would be your best option.

[cwt]

7 hours ago, LinearTracker said:

 I have also found out today that with the Cambridge Audio 752BD if you use hdmi for audio you will also bypass the 5 wolfenson dacs inside the unit plus this  Note to Audiophiles: If you use a Blu-ray Disc player that incorporates the ability to listen SACDs or DVD-Audio Discs and the Blu-ray Disc player has very good or excellent DACs (Digital-to-Analog Audio Converters) that may be better than the ones in your home theater receiver, it is actually desirable to connect the 5.1/7.1-channel analog output connections to a home theater receiver, instead of the HDMI connection (at least for audio). I have spoken today to Carlton Audio, they also recommend using a power amp and again they also recommend to also use a processor with it as well for superior audio playback as opposed to hdmi or even analogue with a avr. Thanks.

Its important to note LT that you have the option for multichannel  sound of digital [hdmi ] or analog [ Wolfson dacs ] . the end goal in both ways is to get the signal to your dacs . Either in your players or in your avr's . If you go with the avr you don't need a power amp straight away btw [ and especially not if your speakers you choose are especially easy to drive with a high nominal impedance] .

 

If the avr has pre outs [ which that mrx 710 does] its something very handy that you wont find in cheaper lines.. The downside with cheaper avr's is your 2ch sources cd; 2ch sacd's etc will have to pass through the emi/rf and thd etc of your avr that has many more functions to accomplish than a simple isolated 2ch stream . It costs a lot to properly isolate the signal path from this properly..This is one reason we have separates to isolate and refine

If you find you want better 2ch you can always buy a 2ch pre pro or integrated with h/t bypass for your avr but that's for another day ..

 

Quote

it is actually desirable to connect the 5.1/7.1-channel analog output connections to a home theater receiver

Not all of these cheaper avr's actually have the requisite multichannel analog input for output from the 752 ' the Anthem and Arcam don't and its being phased out among newer avr's which is no great loss 

Edited September 4, 2017 by cwt

[betty boop]

LT as i posted earlier...going multi channel analogs is not for faint hearted. there are many pitfalls hurdles(all documented) and some insurmountable especially if just going direct player to amplifier and why everyone eventually end up gong with a processor/amp or avr in end. i cant still believe as someone so new to all this, this is path contemplating. but anyways i wish you well, hopefully find some way through all this that works for you to get what chasing.

[Digital Man]

Hi All, I have found a new in the box Cambridge Audio 551R V2 with full warranty from the one and only Hi-Fi Audio shop left in Albury, Tru Hi-Fi, they carry the Cambridge Audio line, I got it for $700 and I will be picking it up on Monday, one thing that I would like to know is, what are the differences between the 551r and the 551r v2 ? I tried to google the info but no luck. Thanks.

[Mobe1969]

This might be a dumb question, but do receivers in general allow you to flip a room speaker arrangement with a projector setup. Eg run the rears and uppers from the receiver amp, and take preamp out for front and centres? That way keep short HDMI runs, and players at the projector?

[betty boop]

48 minutes ago, LinearTracker said:

I would like to know is, what are the differences between the 551r and the 551r v2 ? I tried to google the info but no luck. Thanks.

one was bug infested

[Digital Man]

Hi Al, That's all ? just a bug fix ?

[betty boop]

13 minutes ago, LinearTracker said:

Hi Al, That's all ? just a bug fix ?

some very minor, but bugs is main reason for the update I believe.