Should i go 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 atmos celing speaker

[obama]

Hi guys

Still cant decide to go .2 or .4 for atmos its so frustrating..  my room is 4.1 width and 5.9 length with the screen on the 4m wall. Il be running 120 inch screen and sitting 4m away. I read depending on the room size theres no need to go .4 is this correct? If so .2 maybe the option. 

[SUPCIN]

Could probably squeeze 5.1.4 in there. Really depends on your budget..... .2 would probably be enough though

[betty boop]

clinton... with a 5.9m depth i would be going 7.1.4 !!!

if cant do that i would go 7.1.2 if restricted in channels.

 

a 5.9m is ideal to sit at 2/3rd room depth in i.e. at 4m point leaving 2m behind ... which is just perfect for setting up 2 side surrounds and 2 rear surrounds and if  left to only two height surrounds which i would go the two front ones.... the front heights are a touch more important than the rear heights I would suggest.

 

ps only reason i would not go .4 is if you cant

 

and only reason I wouldnt go 7.1 if you cant...

Edited August 17, 2017 by :) al

[obama]

 Great advice al cheers mate.

tell you the truth I really don't want to go 7 I rather go 5.1.2 or .4, due to fact iv gone over my budget lol and have already completed my 5 channel set up which was not cheap (krix neauphonix range) and to buy matching rear surrounds is going to go deeper in my pocket..

or I could set up for now a solid 7.1 set up and just have the atmos pre wired and when im ready install .4.

[obama]

8 hours ago, SUPCIN said:

Could probably squeeze 5.1.4 in there. Really depends on your budget..... .2 would probably be enough though

Yeah im hoping .2 krix atmos will be enough

[SUPCIN]

If you adjust the levels correctly I don't see why not. 

Most average people don't have the budget to go 7.1.2 etc. if speakers are placed and setup correctly a 5.1.2 is more than enough for them....in saying that though if you have the chance to pre wire I would wire for 7.2.4

Edited August 17, 2017 by SUPCIN

[Eli]

11 hours ago, al said:

a 5.9m is ideal to sit at 2/3rd room depth in i.e. at 4m point leaving 2m behind ... which is just perfect for setting up 2 side surrounds and 2 rear surrounds and if  left to only two height surrounds which i would go the two front ones.... the front heights are a touch more important than the rear heights I would suggest.

If only two height speakers (one pair) are being used (which I assume you mean Atmos ceiling speakers) then there's not really a front and rear any more - the angles are changed and the one pair are recommended to be more above the listener, if slightly forward (65-100 degrees). Apologies if I have misread.

Clinton, going the .4 really comes down to the room you have and your budget. Going .4 over .2 does give you a better effect, how much exactly and your perception of that will vary. You have the space behind to go the .4 which is important (people try to cram them up against the back wall). It really depends on whether you have the budget for the speakers and also an AVR to process and power 11 channels (you may not have bought this yet).

Edit: Your room is definitely big enough to warrant .4, and I would say is a good case for a 7.1.4 system. Going 5.1.2 will be great, but leave a bit of a hole at the back imo.

Can I ask what your current surrounds (and their finish) are? Also, will your Atmos speakers be in-ceiling, or could they be on-ceiling surrounds?

Edited August 17, 2017 by Eli

[Kazz]

Speaking as someone who went with 7.2.2 to start my Atmos system, I would say go with the .4 setup.  

I only had the .2 setup for a short time before I added the extra 2 speakers and it now sounds how it should.

My room dimensions are very similar to yours and I'n so happy that I added the extra 2 speakers, it's a much more enveloping experience now.

[obama]

I can do wat i want at the moment as the house frame is up.  Builder  needs to no where speakers will go as he  can put nogons on the wall.. at the moment iv got it set to 5.1.4 as recommend by THX and if i go this way it looks like a perfect set up.

Counch will site on 4m away form the screen 120" and behind me iv set a small bar where my audio n dvd cd will go. 

I don't have a atmos system yet just preparing for future upgrades. 

Whos done 5.1.4 

 

 

 

[betty boop]

3 minutes ago, obama said:

I can do wat i want at the moment as the house frame is up.  Builder  needs to no where speakers will go as he  can put nogons on the wall.. at the moment iv got it set to 5.1.4 as recommend by THX and if i go this way it looks like a perfect set up.

Counch will site on 4m away form the screen 120" and behind me iv set a small bar where my audio n dvd cd will go. 

I don't have a atmos system yet just preparing for future upgrades. 

Whos done 5.1.4 

 

 

 

Clinton if can david the what want do .4 but also do the rear speakers to do 7.1.4

 

it really is worth it, stacks of titles with native 7.1 and upsampling whther native or not will take to 7.1.4

 

it really is worth it. Those rears really add to whole room experience

 

if nothing holding you back I'd do it,

[Eli]

12 minutes ago, obama said:

I can do wat i want at the moment as the house frame is up.  Builder  needs to no where speakers will go as he  can put nogons on the wall.. at the moment iv got it set to 5.1.4 as recommend by THX and if i go this way it looks like a perfect set up.

Counch will site on 4m away form the screen 120" and behind me iv set a small bar where my audio n dvd cd will go. 

I don't have a atmos system yet just preparing for future upgrades. 

Whos done 5.1.4 

 

 

 

Thanks for the info - what do you have set as 5.1.4 as recommended by THX? Where are you seeing this?

Can you please list the current speakers that you have?

[betty boop]

2 hours ago, Eli said:

If only two height speakers (one pair) are being used (which I assume you mean Atmos ceiling speakers) then there's not really a front and rear any more - the angles are changed and the one pair are recommended to be more above the listener, if slightly forward (65-100 degrees). Apologies if I have misread.

Clinton, going the .4 really comes down to the room you have and your budget. Going .4 over .2 does give you a better effect, how much exactly and your perception of that will vary. You have the space behind to go the .4 which is important (people try to cram them up against the back wall). It really depends on whether you have the budget for the speakers and also an AVR to process and power 11 channels (you may not have bought this yet).

Edit: Your room is definitely big enough to warrant .4, and I would say is a good case for a 7.1.4 system. Going 5.1.2 will be great, but leave a bit of a hole at the back imo.

Can I ask what your current surrounds (and their finish) are? Also, will your Atmos speakers be in-ceiling, or could they be on-ceiling surrounds?

If can only have 2 height surrounds the "forward" position prob adds most.

The rear surround possitions if can be added in i would definitely go for as with actual rear surrounds as they all work together to provide a wonderfull enveloping experience.

If drop off rest surrounds rear or heights they I agree can leave a hole

 

 

[Eli]

2 minutes ago, al said:

If can only have 2 height surrounds the "forward" position prob adds most.

The rear surround possitions if can be added in i would definitely go for as with actual rear surrounds as they all work together to provide a wonderfull enveloping experience.

If drop off rest surrounds rear or heights they I agree can leave a hole

Sorry, I'm getting confused - do you mean front heights? I ask because in an Atmos setup, if you are using one pair (.2) of Atmos overhead speakers then front and rear positions don't exist.

ie. if you are going two, you don't pick front or rear positions as these only exist if you have a x.x.4 setup. A x.x.2 setup has one suggested placement spot (65-100 degrees).

Agree that in a long room, I'd be going for some rear surrounds or x.x.4 to fill in the back. Or even better go 7.1.4

 

[betty boop]

9 minutes ago, Eli said:

Thanks for the info - what do you have set as 5.1.4 as recommended by THX? Where are you seeing this?

Can you please list the current speakers that you have?

Good discussion below, why am suggesting don't forget 7.1

 

i also agree with thx on surrounds not at ear level but tad higher

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-audio-video-news/127721-dolby-atmos-update-impressions-thx.html#/topics/127721

 

"What does THX recommend?

They say that sticking with a 7.1 system is far more desirable than any 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 configuration. So, if you have a 9 channel Atmos receiver, your best option is to run a 7.1 or 7.1.2 set-up. This is a fairly sizable revelation from THX and one that certainly limits AVR options and possible speaker configurations for enthusiasts looking to install the very best in-home audio experience.

We’ll have more on Dolby Atmos and DTS:X at a later date. Home Theater Shack reviewers are currently at various stages of installing Atmos systems in their reference spaces, once a few systems are fully furnished, we’ll test some of THX’s conclusions and report our findings."


 

[Eli]

Thanks for the link. To summarise my understanding of that article, THX are recommending to keep your side and rear surrounds a bit higher than Dolby's recommendation of ear level. They are saying having your rears higher than the recommendation then means that the separation between them and rear Atmos ceiling speakers is not enough to have a discernable difference in location. So they then recommend to install the .4 ceiling speakers in a top front and top middle location instead of top front and top rear.

My thoughts: Dolby sets specific angles for speakers so that the processor knows where they are and will send the correct sounds to them at the correct location and correct time. THX may recommend different angles and placement, but at the end of the day it's Dolby's processor that will be working out the algorithm of where to send sounds. I know which placement I'd use if wanting to get the experience as close to how it was intended.

To quote a larger part of that post:
When it comes to Atmos speaker configurations, Buckley says “we wouldn’t recommend a 5.1.[2 or 4] scenario because we found if you don’t have rear speakers, you really do lose the whole fill of the space. In all configurations of a 5.1.2 or 4, we found that without getting that rearward pull, the sound field is much smaller.” 

What does THX recommend? 
They say that sticking with a 7.1 system is far more desirable than any 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 configuration. So, if you have a 9 channel Atmos receiver, your best option is to run a 7.1 or 7.1.2 set-up.

So they're pretty much saying they'd fill the back in with speakers before going overhead. Saying all that, the article was written 2 years ago when home Atmos and AVR's with compatibility were still very new (a full 7.1.4 processor and amplifier wasn't even available I believe). Things have changed a bit now it's not as expensive to get a larger system... it just needs to be in the budget. So I completely agree with you on filling the rears in a long room if possible, but hopefully Clinton has the possibility to do 7.1.4 (or wire for it anyway and hopefully doesn't need to buy another amp if he adds overheads later).

Edit: The same post mentions this if going for only 2 overhead speakers:
Buckley says users with an Atmos system consisting of two presence speakers should place the speakers directly over the seating position.

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Eli

[Eli]

A quick note on the post above - some (maybe most?) of the current AVR's seem to have positioning for top front, top centre and top rear. Yet Dolby's Home Installation Guidelines only have positioning for top front and top rear if x.x.4 and top centre if x.x.2.

I don't personally know how it mixes sound to the top centre speakers in a x.x.4 setup if they're not listed on the specs... perhaps they use the Dolby Surround 'upmix', but to my mind this would not be in a 'purist' line of thinking as it's processing/changing where it thinks sound should go. If anyone has any info on this it'd be great to have a read   

Edited August 18, 2017 by Eli

[betty boop]

1 hour ago, Eli said:

Sorry, I'm getting confused - do you mean front heights? I ask because in an Atmos setup, if you are using one pair (.2) of Atmos overhead speakers then front and rear positions don't exist.

ie. if you are going two, you don't pick front or rear positions as these only exist if you have a x.x.4 setup. A x.x.2 setup has one suggested placement spot (65-100 degrees).

Agree that in a long room, I'd be going for some rear surrounds or x.x.4 to fill in the back. Or even better go 7.1.4

 

If going for two height speakers will find avrs associate these with front heights.

 

if look at the Dolby guide lines for .2 help gets they provide an angle range above. Ie they don't NEED to be tdc top dead centre.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-speaker-setup/7-1-2-setups.html

in my experience so far slightly forward as well as using angled tweeters works and especially if only going with two heights. I explored this heavily just incase in my setup I was stuck with only able to doing two

 

for those going two with option. Adding two down track 2 front heights followed by two rear heights works well. Kazz I think followed this route

Edited August 18, 2017 by :) al

[obama]

I can do wat i want at the moment as the house frame is up.  Builder  needs to no where speakers will go as he  can put nogons on the wall.. at the moment iv got 

 

If thats the case whos selling equinox speakers so i can set my rears surrounds 

 

[Eli]

Just now, obama said:

I can do wat i want at the moment as the house frame is up.  Builder  needs to no where speakers will go as he  can put nogons on the wall.. at the moment iv got 

 

If thats the case whos selling equinox speakers so i can set my rears surrounds 

 

Your reply doesn't list any speakers?

I've been asking as to what you have and what finish as I may have something that might suit....

[betty boop]

3 minutes ago, obama said:

I can do wat i want at the moment as the house frame is up.  Builder  needs to no where speakers will go as he  can put nogons on the wall.. at the moment iv got 

 

If thats the case whos selling equinox speakers so i can set my rears surrounds 

 

Rick from equinox ?

[jutta]

If you have the 'room' for it I'd go the whole hog at 7.2.4

Processing and amplification permitting of course..... but why not?

[SUPCIN]

16 minutes ago, jutta said:

If you have the 'room' for it I'd go the whole hog at 7.2.4

Processing and amplification permitting of course..... but why not?

Cost for one. I'd 100% pre wire for it though

[jutta]

55 minutes ago, SUPCIN said:

Cost for one. I'd 100% pre wire for it though

Well if you had the amplification and processing power I'm guess cost isn't too much more of an issue

[obama]

1 hour ago, Eli said:

Your reply doesn't list any speakers?

I've been asking as to what you have and what finish as I may have something that might suit....

I dont have any ceiling speakers yet.. iv got krix nuaphonix towers epicentrix centre and equinox rears.. as for system oppo 105 player elektra 7 channel power amp 

 

[Eli]

2 hours ago, al said:

If going for two height speakers will find avrs associate these with front heights.

I believe Denon/Marantz and Yamaha have seperate "Front Height" and "Top Front" placements which can be substantially different depending on the room size and your seating position. As mentioned in my other post I don't profess to know how it handles the mixing to speaker positions that aren't at the positioning in the Atmos home spec.

 

 

2 hours ago, al said:

if look at the Dolby guide lines for .2 help gets they provide an angle range above. Ie they don't NEED to be tdc top dead centre.

 

You don't say?

 

6 hours ago, Eli said:

the angles are changed and the one pair are recommended to be more above the listener, if slightly forward (65-100 degrees)

 

3 hours ago, Eli said:

A x.x.2 setup has one suggested placement spot (65-100 degrees)

 

It would have been good to read the THX post you linked at the start... I would have understood where you were coming from sooner! I still think that article was written at a very early time of Atmos where there were still so many unknowns. What do we have one DTS:X at the moment? Not many specifics