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Swagbrah

Cheapest dual sub supporting AVRs?

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Hello, firstly, I hope this is the right place for this question.

after reading the topic about dual subs being a decent improvement, it ha me wondering what the cheapest dual sub, as in proper dual sub out and the technologies that support its implementation, not that I fully understand it (can someone explain that too please) and how I do tell one from the other?

I imagine the hierarchy of AVR models would go 5.1, 7.1, 9.1 then go 7.2, then 7.2.X for atmos only on the highest of models. Is this correct?
in summary, at what price point do the real dual sub supporting AVRs start at?

Thank you, apologies for the noob questions.

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1 hour ago, Swagbrah said:

cheapest dual sub, as in proper dual sub out and the technologies that support its implementation, not that I fully understand it (can someone explain that too please) and how I do tell one from the other?

you'll need something with proper dual sub handling e.g. audyssey xt32 equipped units and you will see they have dual sub outs and xt32 in the spec. am talking denon or marantz units :)

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15 hours ago, Swagbrah said:

Hello, firstly, I hope this is the right place for this question.

after reading the topic about dual subs being a decent improvement, it ha me wondering what the cheapest dual sub, as in proper dual sub out and the technologies that support its implementation, not that I fully understand it (can someone explain that too please) and how I do tell one from the other?

I imagine the hierarchy of AVR models would go 5.1, 7.1, 9.1 then go 7.2, then 7.2.X for atmos only on the highest of models. Is this correct?
in summary, at what price point do the real dual sub supporting AVRs start at?

Thank you, apologies for the noob questions.

Some receivers have one LFE out. If you have two subs you can still use both by using a Y splitter cable (or daisy chain the subs if they have that capability). The thing here is that EQ systems like Audyssey XT32 won't see them as two separate subs, just one.

So as Al mentions, if you have the intention of running the auto EQ system and have dual subs, and want them calibrated as seperate units, then it's better to go with an AVR that has 2 LFE outputs and will EQ them individually (like XT32).

Some AVR's have 2 LFE out, but the EQ system doesn't have the brains to EQ them separately anyway... they just save using a Y splitter cable and not much more.

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Definitely agree with Al re proper sub handling in it's room setup software, no point in having two subs that not working together optimally.

Also as Eli says some lower end avr's may have two sub outputs that essentially just have a Y splitter inside the avr instead of two dedicated sub out puts as in the higher models.

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As a side note, I run dual subs and for the life of me couldn't get XT32 to get the most out of them. After many, many runs it would constantly set their level too low and also left the bass sounding thin and lacking.

I have reasonably large fronts, so the best option for me was to set the bass to LFE + mains and leave it at that (better response throughout the whole room). I manually EQ'd the top end a little and was very happy with the result.

So in some cases, you don't have to be using the sub EQ - in my case and some others I have looked at, it was actually better not to use it, or use some other form (manual EQ adjustment, mini DSP or Audyssey Pro where you can adjust the results).

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Eli did you set your speakers to small after running Audyssey, (it's one step quite often not done)?

I always set my sub levels higher after Audyssey as well, it's good for leveling them out and integrating them into the room but need a few tweaks.

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2 minutes ago, Kazz said:

Eli did you set your speakers to small after running Audyssey, (it's one step quite often not done)?

I always set my sub levels higher after Audyssey as well, it's good for leveling them out and integrating them into the room but need a few tweaks.

Yeh sure did. Also re-adjusted the levels to match them to what they should have been (I normally run them about 2-3dB hot). Still sounded very thin and lacking.

Literally spent nights and nights in the HT trying to make it work. Audyssey really helped the top end but all the bass and mids suffered. And then no way to manually adjust. Turning it all off and adding a little boost at the top end added some sparkle and I had the best of both worlds.

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3 hours ago, Eli said:

As a side note, I run dual subs and for the life of me couldn't get XT32 to get the most out of them. After many, many runs it would constantly set their level too low and also left the bass sounding thin and lacking.

I have reasonably large fronts, so the best option for me was to set the bass to LFE + mains and leave it at that (better response throughout the whole room). I manually EQ'd the top end a little and was very happy with the result.

So in some cases, you don't have to be using the sub EQ - in my case and some others I have looked at, it was actually better not to use it, or use some other form (manual EQ adjustment, mini DSP or Audyssey Pro where you can adjust the results).

I would give pro a run if have access. Could be a mic calibration issue which is solved with calibrated mic that pro uses

 

i wonder too how much ref vs pref

 

keep in mind pro also removes mid range compensation which I feel a good thing :)

 

otherwise audyssey could be adversely needing needing to compensate fir something ?

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2 hours ago, al said:

I would give pro a run if have access. Could be a mic calibration issue which is solved with calibrated mic that pro uses

 

i wonder too how much ref vs pref

 

keep in mind pro also removes mid range compensation which I feel a good thing :)

 

otherwise audyssey could be adversely needing needing to compensate fir something ?

Thanks, one day I'll get around to it Al - you know how life goes and trying to spend more time enjoying the system/room more than tweaking it. I'm also in the process of testing out some acoustic panels, which will change the results too.

Ref vs pref - there's probably a bit of both in there. The mid and top end tweak was based off measurements... the lower end based off what I enjoy  :)

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13 hours ago, Eli said:

Some receivers have one LFE out. If you have two subs you can still use both by using a Y splitter cable (or daisy chain the subs if they have that capability). The thing here is that EQ systems like Audyssey XT32 won't see them as two separate subs, just one.

So as Al mentions, if you have the intention of running the auto EQ system and have dual subs, and want them calibrated as seperate units, then it's better to go with an AVR that has 2 LFE outputs and will EQ them individually (like XT32).

Some AVR's have 2 LFE out, but the EQ system doesn't have the brains to EQ them separately anyway... they just save using a Y splitter cable and not much more.

I think XT32 will set individual distance settings and measure them individually but actually  EQ them as one unit

From Chris Kyriakakis from Audyssey

Quote

The idea is to first measure each sub separately, then apply delay and level settings so that the two subs are now time and level aligned.  Then we ping them once more as "one" sub to derive the room correction filter

 

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4 minutes ago, jamiebosco said:

EQ them as one unit

 

absolutely. has to. they have to be measured individually so phase and delay etc can be appropriately applied, however eq'ed as one as they work as one replaying one LFE signal. however elli is correct in that they are calibrated taking them in individually :)

Edited by :) al

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Good point Jamie, that's a better way to explain it.

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All amps with dual sub outputs simply duplicate the same signal,  so there is no difference between the two output other than delay & level setting.  7.2 or 9.2 should be labelled 7.1+1 or 9.1+1. One good sub is better than two cheapies.

 

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My yamaha 3083 has front and rear subwoofer connections, would that just duplicate the same signal but set timing/distance only?

 

While im at it, would it be a good or bad idea to add a 2nd sub of different quality and brand to my psa xv30f se?

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On 17/08/2017 at 6:23 PM, Swagbrah said:

Hello, firstly, I hope this is the right place for this question.

after reading the topic about dual subs being a decent improvement, it ha me wondering what the cheapest dual sub, as in proper dual sub out and the technologies that support its implementation, not that I fully understand it (can someone explain that too please) and how I do tell one from the other?

I imagine the hierarchy of AVR models would go 5.1, 7.1, 9.1 then go 7.2, then 7.2.X for atmos only on the highest of models. Is this correct?
in summary, at what price point do the real dual sub supporting AVRs start at?

Thank you, apologies for the noob questions.

All the movie soundtrack have a mono. 1 recorded track below 80hz (except an early DTS recording I  found to be 5.0  no basstrack but it was Waterworld so who cares) but a -.2 output can give bass managment being crossover point amd distance (ie delay). If the subs are equidistant(position front left & right & placed preferably at the same distrance from the walls,  no difference. If one is at the front same distance a the main speakets and the other behind the seat you sit in, it can be hrlpfull.

As always,  speaker placement is the first rule of getting it right. But we all don't have dedicated rooms and most I se are compromised in some way. 

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I've come to the conclusion that every surround amp has Audyssey for free is that it's not worth paying anything for. A decent SPL meter or even your ears will do a better job. 

Bass always seems to come out the worse with Audyssey.

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I think Audyssey is definitely a love it or hate it thing.

It makes a massive difference for the better in my room

Do you have any before and after graphs?

 

Audyssey ON vs Audyssey OFF.jpg

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I have searched a long time for a receiver that handles dual subs properly, the only ones i found were in the Yamaha Avenatage series

 

The alternative I ended up doing was downmixing the sub to the front channels (subwoofer = no in setup) and running an external crossover and amplifiers from the front pre outs to the fronts and subwoofers

 

A lot of receivers (even low end ones) will downmix the subwoofer (and center too if you like) to the fronts in analog, so this works even for analog 5.1/7.1 inputs

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