Dolby Vision Vrs HDR 10

[Blackman1503561291]

Well I how have 3 Dolby Vision movies, Despicable Me, Despicable Me 2. and Power Rangers (crap movie I only purchased it to Test.) so I watch Power Ranger last night to see whats DV is like (comes up with Dolby Vision Cinema).and I found the Colours more Natural and colorful, I found Bright Scenes to be Bright,("eg" that damn Flashlight that the young guy had nearly Blinded me..... Surprising to be so Bright Consider the Back light is set to 50%.not as 100 this is set for HDR 10 Cinema. I also Found that The dynamic Contrast has to be left OFF as if you use it to as low, Medium and high it brighten up the BLACKS and you don't want that.

On HDR 10 Movies I use Dynamic Contrast on High and High give the LG TV the Best Blacks. Funny thing is DV is the Opposite. Interesting!

[JSmith]

1 hour ago, Blackman1503561291 said:

whats DV is like (comes up with Dolby Vision Cinema).and I found the Colours more Natural and colourful

Thanks for the feedback Blackman... it's good to know from a forum member that DV is better in practice and not just on paper.

JSmith 

[Owen]

If colour is different there is a calibration problem, more colour is not "better" colour.

HDR10 and Dolby Vision are supposed to have the same colour, and on any un calibrated display comparisons are pointless.

[JSmith]

1 hour ago, Owen said:

HDR10 and Dolby Vision

Which do you think is the better HDR system... or none?

JSmith

[Owen]

None as far as I am concerned because I have zero interest in viewing movies on a TV.

 

Now that hybrid log gamma is part of the HDR10 standard Dolby vision has no reason to exist.

[JSmith]

36 minutes ago, Owen said:

None as far as I am concerned because I have zero interest in viewing movies on a TV.

Ah, that's right... you only use a projector for movies. Does yours do HDR, UHD or quasi?

36 minutes ago, Owen said:

hybrid log gamma

This is going to be mostly for broadcast so that SD tellies are not affected by HDR signals... not to mention there is no TV's so far that can interpret a HLG signal, however I do note some manufacturers have touted they can add this to some existing sets via a firmware update and some recent projectors have popped up with it.

Let's hope there's not further format wars and changes here... seems like MediaTek are including HLG in this new SoC;

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mediatek-announces-ultra-hd-tv-soc-supporting-dolby-vision-and-hybrid-log-gamma-hlg-300472156.html

DV's 12 bit colour system with dynamic metadata is still the best on paper... maybe we'll end up with DV for movies on UHD BD's and HLG for broadcast TV?

JSmith

Edited July 3, 2017 by jsmith
spelling

[Owen]

9 minutes ago, JSmith said:

Ah, that's right... you only use a projector for movies. Does yours do HDR, UHD or quasi?

 

Projectors are not HDR display devices, nor do they need to be given the screen size and totally dark viewing environment. They take in a HDR video signal and re map gamma to suit their light output, which is less than the standard for SDR.

Quality projectors extend the dynamic range in the direction that really matters, towards black. High brightness has no place on a BIG screen in a totally dark room.

 

Dolby Vision is not required to get per frame meta data, its part of the new open and free standard, and 4K Bluray is not limited to 10 bit.

Dolby Vision with its royalties has no future IMHO. I expect it to wither on the vine before it even gets off the ground.

[JSmith]

1 hour ago, Owen said:

hybrid log gamma is part of the HDR10

They are different things I believe... although HDR10 and BBC HLG are royalty free.

23 minutes ago, Owen said:

meta data, its part of the new open and free standard

Nah, HLG doesn't need or use metadata due to the way it works, i.e. compatible with all SDR displays, hence why it is good to introduce for broadcasting;

No cumbersome metadata to lose or corrupt

https://custom.cvent.com/63DDE0970BB04F3EA62737749B39B60C/files/event/841C5F30AA5948D4B4D985BC90AE0B2C/426e265101984437b7f9bde81acf8364.pdf

25 minutes ago, Owen said:

Dolby Vision with its royalties has no future

Whilst I too hate something that has royalties attached, sometimes this can mean a better system... but like Betamax it could fade into obscurity for the same reason.

However, this seems a bit different with numerous studios taking on the format, more TV and UHD BDP manufacturers also including it.

JSmith

[Blackman1503561291]

12 hours ago, Owen said:

If colour is different there is a calibration problem, more colour is not "better" colour.

HDR10 and Dolby Vision are supposed to have the same colour, and on any un calibrated display comparisons are pointless.

I said : " I found the Colours more Natural and colorful", If you read my Stroke English I was trying to say it was NOT EXAGGERATED COLOURS. The Colours look real not like some HDR 10 movies where the Colours Look great but if not over done.

[Blackman1503561291]

10 hours ago, JSmith said:

A

 

DV's 12 bit colour system with dynamic metadata is still the best on paper... maybe we'll end up with DV for movies on UHD BD's and HLG for broadcast TV?

JSmith

Considering 9 out of 10 movies are DV to start with.

By the way I watch on Satellite the First Ad Hoc Intenarate (cany spell it) HLG feed on the 86 Tv and. So now I have HDR 10, DV , and HLG. Interesting

Edited July 4, 2017 by Blackman

[cwt]

5 hours ago, Blackman1503561291 said:

I said : " I found the Colours more Natural and colorful", If you read my Stroke English I was trying to say it was NOT EXAGGERATED COLOURS. The Colours look real not like some HDR 10 movies where the Colours Look great but if not over done.

I got your take Blackman ' more differing shades of colour with higher bit rates = less banding 

Quote

Increasing the bit depth results in almost exponentially better color rendition

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/hdmi-1-3-cables-bitrate/8-bit-10-bit-12-bit-whats-the-deal.html

Quote

However, this seems a bit different with numerous studios taking on the format, more TV and UHD BDP manufacturers also including it.

Will be interesting to see dv's outcome j with a software solution now being available for the right chipsets  And a new hdmi revision ' hdmi 2.1 needed for hdr10;s version of variable scene by scene metadata . What no one should want unless made of money 

[Guest]

blackman has too many tv's that does everything.

still undecided if i will get the 86 inch lg or will go to 75 inch with another manufacture which is more possible because more are available at that size. I met blackman at Morayfield shopping centre last week and he told me he has contacted lg about the problem with his 86 inch lg with the bars being not so black whilst viewing some dark movies on particular scenes.

with this dolby vision that has just popped up now on 4k movies you would be a fool not buying a tv that supports it and this is the reason why i want the lg

if i'm lucky the black will invite me and my wife again to their house because i want to see how bad the tv is with this bar issue he has. I do know the black-ness is very very fussy like proved on his perfect alignment hecto but what i'm saying is his bad might be acceptable to me. he also told me he had to drop the tv closer to the floor 3 times to dial it in and it fixed most of the issues but he said it can come down more around 1 to 2 inches.

Also buying a dolby vision tv i also will have to fork out another $900 for the oppo player.

[cwt]

6 hours ago, Rainbow Man said:

Also buying a dolby vision tv i also will have to fork out another $900 for the oppo player.

Make a trip to jb Rainbow Man and check out the dv opposition [ oppo pun ] 

https://www.jbhifi.com.au/tv-home-entertainment/players-recorders/lg/lg-up970-4k-uhd-blu-ray-player/444922/

[Blackman1503561291]

6 hours ago, Rainbow Man said:

blackman has too many tv's that does everything.

still undecided if i will get the 86 inch lg or will go to 75 inch with another manufacture which is more possible because more are available at that size. I met blackman at Morayfield shopping centre last week and he told me he has contacted lg about the problem with his 86 inch lg with the bars being not so black whilst viewing some dark movies on particular scenes.

with this dolby vision that has just popped up now on 4k movies you would be a fool not buying a tv that supports it and this is the reason why i want the lg

if i'm lucky the black will invite me and my wife again to their house because i want to see how bad the tv is with this bar issue he has. I do know the black-ness is very very fussy like proved on his perfect alignment hecto but what i'm saying is his bad might be acceptable to me. he also told me he had to drop the tv closer to the floor 3 times to dial it in and it fixed most of the issues but he said it can come down more around 1 to 2 inches.

Also buying a dolby vision tv i also will have to fork out another $900 for the oppo player.

Yes We have to many Tv's

 

Yes I contacted LG and they send one of their Contractor Repairers  to have a Look at it and he took Photo's (its Like my Photos we not believed)

They will say 3 or more matters.

1/ This is normal for a LG to have this Issue

2/ This Tv was put in a wrong angle when taken off the Truck "eg" I have taken the times and date the video footage of our Security Camera shown the Delivery guy putting the TV on the Ground whilst my end was still on the truck (around 40 deg Angle). I told HIM CLEARLY let lift it off together and put it on the ground but he did not listen as he drop his end before I could get it off the Truck in 2 seconds.

3/ The TV has and issue and need to be look at.

4/ The TV needs to be replaced.

I would say it will will be Number 1.

Like the Hecto I went to a lot of Trouble to fit this TV to the right Height on the wall so it minimize this issue.

 

Give me a ring later this week. tell your wife to cook some of her lovely scones. I can still taste the last one I had

 

[Blackman1503561291]

13 minutes ago, cwt said:

Make a trip to jb Rainbow Man and check out the dv opposition [ oppo pun ] 

https://www.jbhifi.com.au/tv-home-entertainment/players-recorders/lg/lg-up970-4k-uhd-blu-ray-player/444922/

I went to JB's today at North Lakes and the Guy selling tv's said to me Why don't you buy the LG Blu Ray Player that does Dolby Vision as you have a LG Now (I told him I want a smaller one,but I did not say the main one was 86 inch and this year Model) I replied I have a Oppo UDP 203,, He said what a Oppo?,,, I said Oppo makes quality Hi Fi Products. I have two of them of different models. He said again I have never hear of a 4K player and a Player that Does Dolby Vision so he Snuffed me and Walk shaking his head off. I walk passed Google OPPO and read.

If I'm correct the LG UP970 make that much noise it can be compared to a Cement Mixer.

Once Again People No nothing about the Industry they are involve with.

[Blackman1503561291]

I watch Despicable ME last night (full movie Stopping here and There) and I stopped the movie on Dark Scenes with also Bright lights On at the same time and I noticed when I stopped it I found with Dolby Vision The Dynamic Contrast Does nothing about the Dark Scenes (Dynamic Contrast From Low to High) But Brightens the white Brights to be a lot brighter and when Watch the same Scene on the Panasonic DMP UB 900 The Blacks went Deeper about the same as the Oppo On DV but the white were not as Strong as the Oppo using DV..

So you guy work that out. Does DV know that LG IPS tv are Limited in Blacks but can give a Brighter Whites  and they do this to get a better Contrast. Remember the Backlight is set now At 60% not now 80% as what I use in the Panasonic UB900 in HDR 10

I will wait until my daughter is home and see if her strong Memory can recoginse what I found. I need to do it about 6 times to Prove it. It would be Good to have a Color Meter to Measure the how Bright it is.

Like I said before When I watch that useless Power Rangers Movie in DV One Scene in there I was nearly Blinded by the young guy flashing his  Battery Torch at the screen

Edited July 5, 2017 by Blackman

[cwt]

20 minutes ago, Blackman1503561291 said:

I went to JB's today at North Lakes and the Guy selling tv's said to me Why don't you buy the LG Blu Ray Player that does Dolby Vision as you have a LG Now (I told him I want a smaller one,but I did not say the main one was 86 inch and this year Model) I replied I have a Oppo UDP 203,, He said what a Oppo?,,, I said Oppo makes quality Hi Fi Products. I have two of them of different models. He said again I have never hear of a 4K player and a Player that Does Dolby Vision so he Snuffed me and Walk shaking his head off. I walk passed Google OPPO and read.

If I'm correct the LG UP970 make that much noise it can be compared to a Cement Mixer.

Once Again People No nothing about the Industry they are involve with.

They don't deserve the business Blackman ; as Quark said in another thread make sure they have a good return policy  Wont be long before other makes turn up as the chipset is now available 

[Blackman1503561291]

2 minutes ago, cwt said:

Wont be long before other makes turn up as the chipset is now available 

Yes So Oppo will have to get their finger out just to stay ahead of the other mob

[JSmith]

1 minute ago, Blackman1503561291 said:

lovely scones

Now ya makin' me hungry Blackman!

JSmith 

[Owen]

On 4 July 2017 at 2:06 AM, JSmith said:

Nah, HLG doesn't need or use metadata due to the way it works,

HDR 10 as we have known it is defined in SMPT standard ST-2084 and it only supports static metadata.

The HDR standards are changing and SMPT standard ST-2094 defines the implementation of dynamic per frame metadata AS WELL as HLG. Dynamic metadata is required for HLG but it can be used in the same way as Dolby Vision to enhance HDR performance with all displays.

HLG is a vital feature as it provides standards by which video can be remapped for displays with different peak output levels on a frame by frame basis, its definitely not just for SDR conversion.

HDR video is currently being mastered for 1000 and 4000 nits, with 10,000 nits or more likely in future. Video mastered for 4000 nits will not look right on a 1000 nit display and 1000 nit video will not look right on a 500 nit display. Few HDR displays are actually 1000 nits even now and none are 4000 nits, so HLG will be a vital feature going forward as we are unlikely to have a display that accurately conforms to current HDR mastering standards let alone future standards. Dolby Vision does not address this problem because it assumes the display device is the same as the mastering monitor, which is almost never going to be the case.

There are more changes in the standards coming as well in the form of Rec.2100 which brings 12bit and other things. 12bit isn't needed today but as display brightness climbs over 4000 nits it will be.

Since ST-2094, (HDR10 plus) is so new its going to be a while before its implemented at both the video and display ends. No good having one end compatibale and not the other. It is however royalty free unlike Dolby Vision.

[JSmith]

Please re-read my post Owen.

JSmith

[Owen]

I have.

Just to clarify, HLG together with dynamic metadata have the potential to optimise performance for any display, using one or the other systems in isolation cannot do that.  ST-2094 incorporates both but Dolby Vision as it stands now does not, it doesn't take the display into account at all. Dolby Vision meta data is incorporated into the ST-2094 standard as are systems from Technicolor, Philips and Samsung, so content providers have a choices, although the display device will still need to be compatible with the particular system used.

Dolby vision encodes video in a similar way to HLG, althongh the gamma is different, and both retain all the original information in the video source, be it SDR or HDR for output to any display. There is no clipping or hard limiting when HDR is displayed at SDR brightness, thats as it always should have been.

Its yet to be seen how ST-2094 or ST-2100 will be implemented. For optimal performance the display needs to signal its actual peak output, NOT  its theoretical peak output when cranked up to max. A TV or Bluray player with the ability for the user to program in the ACTUAL light output of the particular display with the setup it is using would be the ideal but thats probably to much to hope for.

As it stands today HDR and WCG are a mess with highly unpredictable and inaccurate performance for colour and gamma because displays cant be calibrated to the video source which is in its self inconsitant. The old Rec.709 HD system is well established and most displays can be calibrated to conform to this standard with a high degree of accuracy.

What we have now with UHD is "quantity" over "quality", which suits the average consumer who is not discerning about the finer points and just wants "more", more colour, more brightness, more pixels.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Owen

[pc10]

From a layman's point of view, was watching a 4K HDR program on Netflix last night on my Samsung KU 8000 and was astounded at the variability of the PQ.  The viewing mode automatically detects the incoming HDR signal; bright outdoor scenes were absolutely stunning yet the introduction of darkness such as in indoor setting rendered the HDR absolutely useless.  PQ under this scenario was akin to a compressed standard definition FTA broadcast television signal.   

[mello yello]

KU8000 is a Kogan isnt it?

[gbickle1503560852]

On 2017-7-3 at 3:45 PM, Blackman1503561291 said:

Well I how have 3 Dolby Vision movies, Despicable Me, Despicable Me 2. and Power Rangers (crap movie I only purchased it to Test.) so I watch Power Ranger last night to see whats DV is like (comes up with Dolby Vision Cinema).and I found the Colours more Natural and colorful, I found Bright Scenes to be Bright,("eg" that damn Flashlight that the young guy had nearly Blinded me..... Surprising to be so Bright Consider the Back light is set to 50%.not as 100 this is set for HDR 10 Cinema. I also Found that The dynamic Contrast has to be left OFF as if you use it to as low, Medium and high it brighten up the BLACKS and you don't want that.

 

On 2017-7-3 at 3:45 PM, Blackman said:

On HDR 10 Movies I use Dynamic Contrast on High and High give the LG TV the Best Blacks. Funny thing is DV is the Opposite. Interesting!

Yeah I have a 65" Oled and Dolby Vision looks absolutely stunning. Perfect shadow detail and insanely good picture. Colours look amazing (for me Hdr10 usually didnt as look good with more saturated colours etc.).. Problem is that it's made normal Bluray seem very mediocre. Hoping Dolby Vision becomes a standard. 

I just started watching a French cooking show on Netflix (Dolby Vision) and got caught up in quality of the picture. Sensational.