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yamapro

Well Integrated Sub Bass - Best upgrade i have made

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Hi All,

Some of you may know i have recently gone from a single sub to a dual setup.

Whilst a long way from High End, i have always tried to get bang for my bucks and the sub I had been using was no slouch (it'a all relatve) being a home made jobbie running a Peerless 12" XLS in sealed alignment powered by the old faithful Jaycar plate amp.

I have built new boxes, added a second driver (same as the first) and run both in a dual mono configuration of a Dayton SA 1000.

Obviously with twice the cone area and nearly 3X the power output i was expecting some good things as far as headroom etc but i have honestly been blown away.

The paradox is that the subs actually don't sound like they are there at all which funnily enough is pretty much perfect. It appears i just have some magical standmounts with really low extension!

All in all I am very happy with the Dayton amp - I haven't used the parametric EQ at all and the bass boost is defeated but the fully adjustable phase has been a godsend. The sub stage integrates best when the phase is set to 180 deg. I need to learn a lot more about the science behind it but am assuming that the combination of the main stage being in front of me and the subs located behind and at about 1/3 of the distance explains why the 180deg out of phase actually works for the smoothest response.

So after playing around with many tweaks over the years I can report that IME having a dual sub output stage and plenty of power for them on tap has made a huge difference to both 2 channel listening and HT. More so for me than running power amps for any or all of the main channels (having had 2 channel, 3 channel and 7 channel amps added to my AVRs over the years (although i still enjoy this option)). Far more so than going from 5.1 to 7.1 (even just in HT playback).

I can whole-heartedly recommend building from a great sub bass foundation and then adding quality main speakers as the way to start towards audio nirvana!

Of course...YMMV :D

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hmm not on the same level but i run ( in my ht.. homely theatre.. room) some older klipsch ref3 fronts, centre, 2 sets of side surrounds, rears. my velodyne 15" from 2001 sub (front position) has been joined by a old yamaha sw800 10" from 2001 (rear near seating position)

tuned with audyssey xt32 through my denon 4311 it makes a big difference. given the choice of moving from 5.1 to 7.1/atmos etc people should spend the coin and for that 2nd sub first.

Edited by hopefullguy

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12 minutes ago, yamapro said:

Cheers mate!

What's the difference like from 5.1 to 7.1? I had my heart set on 7.2.4 but now I'm thinking it may not be worth it.. Just wondering if that whole front sidewall sound stage opens up with a 7.1 setup.. Mind you the room is only 5m long

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14 hours ago, Dylan86.exe said:

What's the difference like from 5.1 to 7.1? I had my heart set on 7.2.4 but now I'm thinking it may not be worth it.. Just wondering if that whole front sidewall sound stage opens up with a 7.1 setup.. Mind you the room is only 5m long

Hi Dylan,

IME the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 is subtle to say the least. There is still much more 5.1 source material than 7.1 and well set up 5.1 does an excellent job creating an immersive sound field.

In saying that it's worth noting that all 4 of my surround channels are mounted above my head in a bulkhead and not at the 'optimal' height.

I built the room when 7.1 was becoming the new standard and my surround channels were always going to have to be in ceiling/wall types and it was easier to go overhead, so thats what I wired for. 

There was relatively little extra hardware cost in expanding to 7.1 so I did - tbh the question I would look to answer if setting up a new system is for any budget what will meet my end needs best?

I can't comment on the worthiness of Atmos etc but the cost of 6 extra speakers over good old 5.1 and the extra amplification makes me wonder - would a better 5.1 implementation (still recommend multiple subs in that .1 if possible) with better speakers and amps perform better in your space than a 7.2.4???

Sorry I don't have the answers just the question! Also to me great musicality and stereo performance is probably more important than the surround capabilities... Obviously this isn't the same for everyone ?

Edited by yamapro

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19 hours ago, Dylan86.exe said:

What's the difference like from 5.1 to 7.1? I had my heart set on 7.2.4 but now I'm thinking it may not be worth it.. Just wondering if that whole front sidewall sound stage opens up with a 7.1 setup.. Mind you the room is only 5m long

Had a 7.1 system for perhaps 10 years and went to 5.1 when we twice shifted homes.  I was expecting to miss 7.1 but it did not happen.  A good AVR (anthem MRX-710) helps.  And front sidewall sound stage had minimal change.  And it agrees with yamapro's findings:

5 hours ago, yamapro said:

IME the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 is subtle to say the least. There is still much more 5.1 source material than 7.1 and well set up 5.1 does an excellent job creating an immersive sound field..

Another reason not to have a 7.1 setup is music.  Music takes up more than half the time in my HT and music setup (shares mains and subs). Two channel and multi-channel music (5.1, 4.0) have no need for side speakers.

 

On 02/07/2017 at 9:07 PM, yamapro said:

So after playing around with many tweaks over the years I can report that IME having a dual sub output stage and plenty of power for them on tap has made a huge difference to both 2 channel listening and HT. More so for me than running power amps for any or all of the main channels (having had 2 channel, 3 channel and 7 channel amps added to my AVRs over the years (although i still enjoy this option)). Far more so than going from 5.1 to 7.1 (even just in HT playback).

Recently went dual subs as well, with dis-similar subs using mutli-sub optimisation (MSO). Agree that it made a big difference for both music and HT. :D:)

p/s am bewildered :huh: that there has been no interest in MSO in this forum and limited in SNA.  It is free, based on solid scientific research (maybe that is the problem in our "fake news" era?) and solves both the integration of subs and making the bass response more uniform across seating positions.

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On 02/07/2017 at 9:07 PM, yamapro said:

Whilst a long way from High End, i have always tried to get bang for my bucks and the sub I had been using was no slouch (it'a all relatve) being a home made jobbie running a Peerless 12" XLS in sealed alignment powered by the old faithful Jaycar plate amp.

I run the same drivers and possibly, same plate amp.  Did you add the simply impedance network?  This takes away the resistance peak at resonance.    

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It's often surprising the kinds of improvements you can make when you get integration right. The improvement goes well beyond bass.  Everything improves.

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3 minutes ago, Red Spade Audio said:

It's often surprising the kinds of improvements you can make when you get integration right. The improvement goes well beyond bass.  Everything improves.

Agreed - like i mentioned earlier, it appears as though i have magical standmounts now! Getting the first few octaves right in both proportion and alignment for want of better terms definitely seems to be the foundation to build a solid image from. I'm stoked :D

16 hours ago, CAVX said:

I run the same drivers and possibly, same plate amp.  Did you add the simply impedance network?  This takes away the resistance peak at resonance.    

It's a damn shame the drivers are discontinued - they may not be exotic or as fashionable as 15-18"'s but in this alignment they are so fast and punchy and whilst the extension i have isn't even close to on par with some of the HT monster subs out there, it's not exactly lacking!

I have discontinued use of the plate amp and replaced it with a Dayton SA 1000

http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/dayton-audio-sa1000-subwoofer-amplifier-rack-mount

Again neither the biggest nor best (got two second hand from SNA a couple of years back and am using the other in my mates shed project) but definitely a step up from the Jaycar i was using and the standard chasis is better for my room than plates.

It appears there is a plate version of this amp http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/dayton-audio-spa1000-1000w-subwoofer-plate-amplifi - although phase adjustment is just a 2 position switch 0&180. Probably does the job 95% of the time (like i said 180deg is working for me :D )

 

Cheers All

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On 7/2/2017 at 7:07 PM, yamapro said:

Hi All,

Some of you may know i have recently gone from a single sub to a dual setup.The paradox is that the subs actually don't sound like they are there at all which funnily enough is pretty much perfect. It appears i just have some magical standmounts with really low extension!

I can whole-heartedly recommend building from a great sub bass foundation and then adding quality main speakers as the way to start towards audio nirvana!

 

Good on you ... I can atest to what 2 subs will do when integrated well.

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7 hours ago, yamapro said:

It's a damn shame the drivers are discontinued - they may not be exotic or as fashionable as 15-18"'s but in this alignment they are so fast and punchy and whilst the extension i have isn't even close to on par with some of the HT monster subs out there, it's not exactly lacking!

What?  The Peerless XLS 12" are discontinued? 

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4822/3279/1600/sub.jpg

http://bp3.blogger.com/_PUdSZeR2k1A/Ru1BybfjB_I/AAAAAAAAA1E/hAJbHpAMthQ/s1600/CAVX+SUB+1.GIF

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Damn.  I did buy a spare PR once to make a unit with two active drivers on side and three PRs on the opposite.  

Did you add weight (mass) to the PRs?  Or don't you use the PRs?  I ended up adding just under 100 grams to each PR.  

 

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A question about the Dayton SA1000....the spec sheet says 497watts @ 8ohms....is that for each channel or combined? it's not really clear.

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