Projector calibration

[IMDave]

1 hour ago, STAIN0 said:

How come when i put the jvc in ycbcr all the colours go crazy when laptop is being mirrored to the jvc?

 

do i need to run the autocal with the x5000 in rgb mode?

Change the HDMI-2 EDID to "B".

B was created so that "older" equipment will work. 

This was the very first problem I had to troubleshoot, when Al and I were in the first group of people in the world to get their X7000's. Even tech support in Sydney couldn't help me for the first couple of days.

So nowadays, when watching through my Oppo203, I set to EDID "A" for 4kUHD-HDR with a higher bandwidth. But my old Region-free Oppo BDP83 still needs to be run on HDMI EDID "B" otherwise everything is GREEN.

 

[CAVX]

On 07/07/2017 at 3:51 PM, STAIN0 said:

I had a quick play with the DVE disc and found, on the pluge, something is clipping my below blacks.

is there a setting in the oppo 203 or my jvc x5000 that allows this to happen?

You will have to go through the outputs and find the one that allows you to see below black/above white.

With my OPPO 103D, that happens to be RGB video out.  I don't yet own the 203, so can't tell you what that might be.

There was a recent FW upgrade and that caused a problem with my player where I could no longer see below black on any setting.   A system reset (as advised by OPPO) fixed the problem and I am once again able to use RGB out.  According to OPPO, the PC setting should be passing 0-255, but on my system, this is not the case.  So you may have to select each and see what does what on your system.    

Whilst you don't need to see below black, it certainly helps in finding the point in which the below video black and video black back ground match in level.  
 

SDR video black is PC R16 G16 B16 or 7.5% above 0 or absolute black.  

With UHD and HDR-10, now you NEED to see all the way down 0.5%.   With the last JVC I calibrated, I could only get down to 1% without seeing the designated 0% (which is still above absolute black).  The HDR-10 patterns I have show below 0% if set too high.      

 

 

[drummerboy01]

18 hours ago, IMDave said:

Change the HDMI-2 EDID to "B".

B was created so that "older" equipment will work. 

This was the very first problem I had to troubleshoot, when Al and I were in the first group of people in the world to get their X7000's. Even tech support in Sydney couldn't help me for the first couple of days.

So nowadays, when watching through my Oppo203, I set to EDID "A" for 4kUHD-HDR with a higher bandwidth. But my old Region-free Oppo BDP83 still needs to be run on HDMI EDID "B" otherwise everything is GREEN.

 

Thanks Dave as i was having the same problem with my dvda1ud player

[drummerboy01]

Due to my lack of knowledge in calibrating a projector i followed a video in this post and found i was quite surprised at how natural the picture ended up. I can always set the projector back to factory settings too,so i thought i would give it a go.The only problem is ,is that i did not learn anything from doing it but i was happy with the results.I don't know if anyone else with a similar projector has done so but i did find it helpful as the settings in the video was off a projector basically the same make and age as mine.

 

 

[betty boop]

drummer boy good what getting is close to natural. however usual caveat what is right for his projector is not necessarily right for yours. using DVE you have you should within minutes have the lens aperture set to what ever suits your setup to get 12-14 FL output otherwise just using -15 could be giviing an unnecessarily dull image with say your larger screen you might run or because you are running your projector at say at a different throw to what the one in the video is.

 

similarly at the very least brightness and contrast i would adjust via the dve disc. i cant imagine yours would be exactly same as one in the video. kind of finesse i think you could add on top of stevew recommended settings. just a few settings there. and well worth doing at the very least

[CAVX]

You will need a light meter at minimum to know how bright the unit is.  The cheap one from JarCar (about $65) seems to work better directly in the light path than measuring reflected light off the screen. This then gives lux which as I understand, you divide by pie (3.14ect) to convert to nits.  Then nits is divided that by 29.29 to convert to FL.  

[drummerboy01]

51 minutes ago, CAVX said:

You will need a light meter at minimum to know how bright the unit is.  The cheap one from JarCar (about $65) seems to work better directly in the light path than measuring reflected light off the screen. This then gives lux which as I understand, you divide by pie (3.14ect) to convert to nits.  Then nits is divided that by 29.29 to convert to FL.  

Yea,my light meter got delivered the other day,as I took Dave,s advice and got this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005A0ETXY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 

[drummerboy01]

1 hour ago, al said:

drummer boy good what getting is close to natural. however usual caveat what is right for his projector is not necessarily right for yours. using DVE you have you should within minutes have the lens aperture set to what ever suits your setup to get 12-14 FL output otherwise just using -15 could be giviing an unnecessarily dull image with say your larger screen you might run or because you are running your projector at say at a different throw to what the one in the video is.

 

similarly at the very least brightness and contrast i would adjust via the dve disc. i cant imagine yours would be exactly same as one in the video. kind of finesse i think you could add on top of stevew recommended settings. just a few settings there. and well worth doing at the very least

Totally agree as although the image was natural in a sense, it was also a fraction dull which I did notice.Thats one of the draw backs really as because I have had the Yammy for so long and not really viewed another projector since, I forgot what the new projectors are capable off to a degree I don't know what I am looking at. Also to add to that when I viewed the image for the first time out of the box it just popped out t me and after following the video that pop was definitely gone.It just goes to show that there is a lot more at play here than I first thought.I do really like a picture that pops out at me but it seems it can come at a cost.Oversaturation maybe?

[drummerboy01]

1 hour ago, al said:

drummer boy good what getting is close to natural. however usual caveat what is right for his projector is not necessarily right for yours. using DVE you have you should within minutes have the lens aperture set to what ever suits your setup to get 12-14 FL output otherwise just using -15 could be giviing an unnecessarily dull image with say your larger screen you might run or because you are running your projector at say at a different throw to what the one in the video is.

 

similarly at the very least brightness and contrast i would adjust via the dve disc. i cant imagine yours would be exactly same as one in the video. kind of finesse i think you could add on top of stevew recommended settings. just a few settings there. and well worth doing at the very least

Also too,before I purchased this projector I went through your End user perspective thread of you 7000  and noticed your screen shots which I loved and I could not understand all the fuss some people were making on why you were posting them.Those screen shots stuck with me and gave Me a standard to shoot towards because frankly I would not know what a good picture was if I was staring straight at it.All this stuff does help especially someone like myself who tries to keep a certain standard in home theatre.That,s why I like this so much I guess.Your photos gave me a plan to work too for my own needs and it seems to be paying off.

[betty boop]

1 hour ago, CAVX said:

You will need a light meter at minimum to know how bright the unit is.  The cheap one from JarCar (about $65) seems to work better directly in the light path than measuring reflected light off the screen. This then gives lux which as I understand, you divide by pie (3.14ect) to convert to nits.  Then nits is divided that by 29.29 to convert to FL.  

just a note the jay car light meters I found horrendously inaccurate upto 4-6 fc out ! 

 

I ended up buying a local sold model in the iso-tech ilm 1337

http://au.rs-online.com/web/p/light-meters/6973834/

 

which found to be spot on and has worked faultlessly for some years

ps while RS no longer sell the model i have, they do still have the model down and several more all quite reasonably priced I think and only a tad more than the jay car....

http://au.rs-online.com/web/c/test-measurement/light-electromagnetic-radiation-measurement/light-meters/

 

ps another simple conversion is fc measured by the meter multiplied by screen gain (in my case 1.1) gets the universally accepted FL

 

and FL x 29.29 is nits. where around 30 FL is 100 nits which aiming for as minimum for HDR.

[drummerboy01]

Just a quick question, when viewing my test patterns to calibrate my projector is it best to reset my bluray player to factory settings  and start adjusting my movie image after i have calibrated my projector. My bluray player has some great picture adjustments built into it and i don't want to conflict the image with my projector if that is possible.Is this a wise move.

[betty boop]

39 minutes ago, drummerboy01 said:

Just a quick question, when viewing my test patterns to calibrate my projector is it best to reset my bluray player to factory settings  and start adjusting my movie image after i have calibrated my projector. My bluray player has some great picture adjustments built into it and i don't want to conflict the image with my projector if that is possible.Is this a wise move.

Best not using player adjustments. All should be possible in the display

[drummerboy01]

43 minutes ago, al said:

Best not using player adjustments. All should be possible in the display

Ok thanks Al.

[CAVX]

3 hours ago, drummerboy01 said:

Just a quick question, when viewing my test patterns to calibrate my projector is it best to reset my bluray player to factory settings  and start adjusting my movie image after i have calibrated my projector. My bluray player has some great picture adjustments built into it and i don't want to conflict the image with my projector if that is possible.Is this a wise move.

As Al said, you should only need to make adjustments in the display.  

Full range video is 0~255 and sometimes the player limits it to 16~235.  Test patterns like PLUGE (the brightness test on S&M volume 2 in video calibrations) will allow you to see if your player is passing the full range signal.  Some displays do require you to set the range to "full".  Some projectors have controls like "superwhite" and this often limits the range of the video signal.           

The ONLY thing that requires adjustment from the player is the video range and for this, you MUST use a test pattern.  You should never be adjusting your display on the fly based on actual program.  If you suspect a transfer is not correct, you should set up a new user mode and make adjustments to that, using reference patterns.  

There are some documented cases of incorrect video transfers and one of the best known is FLASH GORDON where it appears they mastered this with a gamma that is too low.  The disc has its own brightness/contrast pattern and to adjust for this, so I copied my calibration settings to another user mode, then made the adjustments to that.  It looked pretty good, but too bright on the normal mode.     

Blu-ray is SDR 8bit and therefore you don't want to see below 7.5% or PC values of R16:G16:B16.  On the S&M brightness pattern, you have 4 bars and two checkerboards on a video black back ground.  You only want to see the +2% and +4% black bars.

Sorry I only have this HDR-10 brightness pattern on hand, but you can see here that "reference black" is 7.5% the same as video black in SDR video. 
 

 

 

[drummerboy01]

Ok thanks Mark for some great info mate.

[CAVX]

4 hours ago, drummerboy01 said:

Ok thanks Mark for some great info mate.

Your welcome.  I found my BASIC CALIBRATION blog I wrote back in 2006.  

[drummerboy01]

57 minutes ago, CAVX said:

Your welcome.  I found my BASIC CALIBRATION blog I wrote back in 2006.  

I will be finishing work early tomorrow and will read the whole blog when i get home mate. Great stuff something for me to look forward too. Cheers Mark.

[drummerboy01]

On 7/27/2017 at 6:51 PM, CAVX said:

Your welcome.  I found my BASIC CALIBRATION blog I wrote back in 2006.  

Just read your blog Mark and found it put me on the right track on how to read the test patterns a little better. With the DVE disc that i have a lot of info went over my head as it goes for quite some time so by the time i got around to using the test patterns i forgot which patterns were for contrast etc.I think the DVE disc is for an advanced calibrator rather than myself being a total novice at this.Running through your blog reminded me off which test patterns are used for calibration which is what a novice needs to know.The DVE disc went for far too long and i found myself having to go back to certain scenes trying to find what the test pattern was for.Your blog was a quick answer without having to navigate through the dvd as a novice.Good post mate as i got some good use from it.Was frustrated a little with the DVE disc.Thanks mate

[CAVX]

The very time I saw a PLUGE on a laser disc was the WOW THX disc.  No instructions and so lucky my then SONY Trinitron was "contrast safe" or it would have fried the tube.
 

Then came VIDEO ESSENTIALS on LD, DIGITAL VIDEO ESSENTIALS on DVD and now DIGITAL ESSENTIALS HD BASICS on BD and each version has got more technical as each new medium has had more space.  

For all 8BIT SDR, the process is the same.  

Contrast now uses ramps instead of a fine white line that used to bend.  

[betty boop]

16 minutes ago, CAVX said:

laser disc was the WOW THX disc

now days fortunately enough does indeed come with some instructions mark. infact probably most user friendly one out there. I think disney describe it or its the running joke that any "goofy" should be able to calibrate with one

[CAVX]

7 hours ago, al said:

now days fortunately enough does indeed come with some instructions mark. infact probably most user friendly one out there. I think disney describe it or its the running joke that any "goofy" should be able to calibrate with one

Not the same WOW as the disney one.  I have Disney's WOW on both DVD and Blu-Ray and the instructions are good.  This WOW THX disc was a promotional LD for sellers of THX sound systems from 1991 only and not made available to the general public.  The disc had tutorials from Tom Holman explaining how Re-eq and Timbre Match/Decorrelation worked and also the "Making Of A Soundtrack" narrated by James Earl Jones.  

Not sure if side A was CAV or not, but B must have been as at the end of the disc on side B was test patterns.  So it just paused on the PLUGE and then there was a SMPTE Colour Bars pattern and some Geometry/Convergence disc.  No instructions here.  I did not know at the time that a pattern like PLUGE could damage a CRT TV in as little as 30 seconds if displayed on a high factory contrast preset.  

I got to meet the guy that created the WOW Disney disc back in 2010 and his joke at the time was that MOM (turn the disc cover upside down) could even use this.  

  

[franin]

On 29/06/2017 at 3:43 PM, IMDave said:

We can get you 90% of the way with the JVC AutoCal program and a Spyder 5 colourimeter. Add Arve's gamma curves and you are to 95%. The last 5% comes from having your Spyder checked against a " reference " meter. I haven't bothered. If D6500 is really D6450, I don't care THAT much.?

Have faith. 

I'm with you Dave, do it yourself. I've just recently received my x5900 ( Last night )  and very curious about the jvc Autocal ( coming from Calman ) and now you mentioning Arves gamma curves. What is Arves Gamma curves and can you upload different gamma curves for the JVC ?

 

 

[CAVX]

23 hours ago, franin said:

I'm with you Dave, do it yourself. I've just recently received my x5900 ( Last night )  and very curious about the jvc Autocal ( coming from Calman ) and now you mentioning Arves gamma curves. What is Arves Gamma curves and can you upload different gamma curves for the JVC ?

 

 

The Arves Gamma curves are 3rd party software that allows you to create an S Gamma Curve in software, then upload that directly to the JVC.  It is a bit quirky, but very cool with how it works.  I wish all projectors with a data port could use this.  

[franin]

The Arves Gamma curves are 3rd party software that allows you to create an S Gamma Curve in software, then upload that directly to the JVC.  It is a bit quirky, but very cool with how it works.  I wish all projectors with a data port could use this.  

Thanks Mark

[CAVX]

It seems that the OPPO's tone mapping, also creates an S curve.