1 million Norwegan cars DAB Total cars registered 2. 6 million

[alanh]

With the analog radio shutdown progressing and the most populous areas yet to close there is currently 2.6 million cars of which 1 million are either factory fitted with DAB+ or have adaptors. The total population of Norway is 5.1 million. As an aside they have 100 000 electric vehicles included in that number.

https://translate.google.com.au/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyhetsrommet.no%2F%3Fp%3D4562&edit-text=

Compare this to Australian we have 500 000 vehicles which are DAB+ capable in a human population of 14 million covered by DAB+. Just shows what happens when the broadcasters don't want to pay for expensive simulcasting. Isn't this what happened when we decided to go DTV and switch off analog TV?

Currently in Sydney there is 11 AM transmitters with 5 backups along with 14 wide area FM transmitters with 4 backups which is competing with 3 DAB+ transmitters along with 3 backups. These figures do not include the new digital only programs which have no analog transmitters.

Just for the Brisbane sceptics

10 AM with 3 backups along with 12 FM with 2 backups  which is competing with 3 DAB+ transmitters with 3 backups. These figures do not include the new digital only programs which have no analog transmitters.

Some AM transmitters have a tiny audience such as ABC Newsradio which has 5 AM transmitters in the mainland state capitals, it is an expensive simulcast per head of population, when this program is on DAB+ now.

Its about time decisions were made to switch off the AM and FM transmitters in the mainland State capitals. The electricity bill for the ABC alone is between 1 and 2 million dollars a year in those cities. This is the major selling point of DAB+. This price does not include maintenance. 

Alanh

 

[ron12]

The standard test for analogue switch off of radio seems to be

- Over 50% of listening is via DAB/DAB+ or other digital means (e.g. online or mobile), radio over TV, satellite etc.
- DAB/DAB+'s signal reaches over 90% of the population reached by the analog transmitter (the number varies)/

In the five state capitals, DAB+ listening is more like 20% of all listening (my calculation).  Online and mobile would add around 10% to that (not sure where I read this), so we still have some way to go.

As for the 90% coverage rule, this is OK for the commercial stations, but many of the ABC's AM stations in the state capitals are 50KW transmitters tgat cover a large rural area in addition to the capital city.  For example, ABC 774 Melbourne reaches much of central Western Victoria, and up to Echuca and over the NSW border.

Also, DAB+ is not just served by 3 transmitters and 3 backups.  There are a number of infill transmitters around the place to boost the coverage of DAB+.

 

[alanh]

Ron,

I suggest you look at the FM transmitters in regional Victoria, they are very powerful and cover all the areas you mention. These transmitters transmit ABC local radio for that region's audience. The sound is much better than AM.

They are ABC regional Radio in Bendigo 250 kW(Effective Radiating Power), Latrobe Valley 200 kW, Mildura/Sunraysia 200 kW, Murray Valley 200 kW, Ballarat 100 kW, Goulburn Valley 100 kW, Upper Murray 80 kW, Western Victoria 80 kW. In addition there is also NewsRadio and Radio National as well as the usual ABC FM and JJJ on most of these sites at a similar power. On the NSW side of the border on similar powers Local Radio for Central Western Slopes, Upper Namoi, Illawarra, MIA, Richmond Tweed, SW slopes/Riverina, Bateman's Bay/Narooma, Grafton/Kempsey and Manning River. NE Tasmania is also on the list. The major coastal regional centres in Qld are also on FM. The Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast are totally FM.

These transmitters were installed in the 1990s and the ABC was given the option to move to FM in mainland State capitals as well but they weren't brave enough to approve it. This was at a time when the commercials were paying millions for licences in these areas. Now look what's happened. Mobile phones do not receive AM nor do nearly all DAB+ radios. This is because most of Europe has abandoned AM.

In addition there is a 50 kW 3WV Western Victoria which is not required because of a powerful FM transmitter in the area. This also applies at lower powers to Upper Namoi (Tamworth) and Grafton (50 kW)  and Manning River (Taree). Similarly in Queensland with Wide Bay and Cairns..

In AM the carrier which contains no sound information is between 60 and 100 % of the radiated power depending on the volume of the sound transmitted. Very wasteful because it has to come from the electricity supply along with transmitter cooling. For just the 5 mainland capital cities the cost of transmitting ABC/SBS on AM and FM is well over $1 million for the power alone. This does not include maintenance costs. Outside of the 5 mainland State Capitals: This does not include the price 1199 kW from 143 AM transmitters alone. In addition there is 150 FM transmitters total effective radiating power 6245 kW although the electricity consumption from the transmitter itself will be a lot less.

Where as for both DAB+ and DRM the carrier is replaced by some very low powered additional pilots are used to determine the received signal strength and the transmission frequency and phase.

DAB+ is not suitable for large areas of low population density. The 200 MHz approx. frequency means "line of sight". Digital Radio Mondiale can transmit on any band from the "AM" band through short wave to the 47 - 68 MHz band. AM transmitters can be upgraded to be switchable between DRM and AM. There is 56 ABC backup AM transmitters which are only on air in case of failure. These could be used to transmit NewsRadio and Radio National from single transmitters. Then the spare transmitter could be upgraded to DRM to transmit Local radio.

The infill repeaters are inexpensive and are between a tiny 300 - 500 W effective radiated power. That demonstrates that DAB+ because of it's transmission frequency is not suitable for large area broadcasting.

In summary why are we using an ancient technology invented around 1900 which is extremely inefficient when compared to digital broadcasting?  This was also the case for analog/digital television. Simulcasting is very expensive and the listeners should be encouraged to upgrade to DAB+/DRM which is happening elsewhere. This would occur if the Commonwealth Government did as they did with TV and decide a timetable of shutdown. In TV Set top boxes dropped from over $1000 to $30 per box and the value of the $ has dropped a lot as well. DAB+ radios can be bought for $30. The popular car brands are also including DAB+ even if they don't advertise it. Check the specifications.

Contrast this with the USA which has HD radio which transmits the digital signals on the adjacent channels causing interference. This system can be switched from analog/digital to digital only, which has not happened outside of the development lab. They will not say how many receivers have been sold. The major manufactures have a very restricted range when compared to the DAB+ range.

Alanh

 

[Basil1503559642]

On 6/3/2017 at 11:36 AM, Ron12 said:

Quote..."In the five state capitals, DAB+ listening is more like 20% of all listening (my calculation).  Online and mobile would add around 10% to that (not sure where I read this), so we still have some way to go".

Relative works for a Sydney advertising agency and they're(approx) the figures they use in spiels to their Clients who target early adopters and Trendies..I think the actual estimates from surveys are about half that in Metropolitan areas with about zero in country areas.IMO its probably at least another 10-20 years before its really in a position to challenge FM. 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by Basil

[alanh]

Basil,

The number of listeners was generated by the multinational ratings company GfK.

The reason it is zero in the country is that the only transmitters are low powered in Canberra and Darwin. DAB+ being at around 200 MHz has at high power a coverage area of a radius of around 100 km.

DAB+ is a poor choice in country areas for that reason, where as DRM would be able to give the same coverage areas as existing AM stations.

Alanh

[Basil1503559642]

On 6/6/2017 at 11:22 AM, alanh said:

Basil,

The number of listeners was generated by the multinational ratings company GfK.

The reason it is zero in the country is that the only transmitters are low powered in Canberra and Darwin. DAB+ being at around 200 MHz has at high power a coverage area of a radius of around 100 km.

DAB+ is a poor choice in country areas for that reason, where as DRM would be able to give the same coverage areas as existing AM stations.

Alanh

OK Alan,i don't have a link to dispute that but if i find it i will Post,the discussion was on a FM radio Show last year when they were talking about the low DAB+ take up rate,but it may be just FM propaganda and 'fake' News.  

Here's GfK...http://www.radioitsalovething.com.au/RIALT/media/RIALT/PDF/GfK_DAB-Only-Summary-Report-National_Survey-2-2017.pdf

 

 

Edited June 10, 2017 by Basil

[Guest]

On ‎3‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 11:14 AM, alanh said:

 

Just for the Brisbane sceptics

10 AM with 3 backups along with 12 FM with 2 backups  which is competing with 3 DAB+ transmitters with 3 backups. These figures do not include the new digital only programs which have no analog transmitters.

Its about time decisions were made to switch off the AM and FM transmitters in the mainland State capitals. The electricity bill for the ABC alone is between 1 and 2 million dollars a year in those cities. This is the major selling point of DAB+. This price does not include maintenance. 

Alanh

 

How do you come up with this stuff.

What AM and FM stations do you think have back ups.

James

[hrh]

4 hours ago, James T Kirk said:

What AM and FM stations do you think have back ups.

Standby transmitters? Lots have them. I don't know if all do, but most of the higher power ones and those in the capital and larger cities and centres have one. Possibly the odd one or three lower power rural sites may not.
I'm guessing that is what is being referred to.

But as per usual, this is going off topic.

Edited June 10, 2017 by hrh

[Basil1503559642]

 

8 hours ago, hrh said:

But as per usual, this is going off topic.

Yeah,James T Kirk,this is the start of a new era,if you can't Post something positive,don't Post.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Basil

[MLXXX]

1 hour ago, Basil1503559642 said:

 

Yeah,James T Kirk,this is the start of a new era,if you can't Post something positive,don't Post.

Basil, I wouldn't be so quick to judge, given that previous posts of James T Kirk have indicated a current knowledge of the broadcasting industry.  It's a reasonable request to ask where alanh got his info from, in my opinion. [I do know that a lot of TXs these days come as modules so that if any module becomes faulty it can be pulled out and replaced.]
 

On 6/3/2017 at 11:14 AM, alanh said:

Its about time decisions were made to switch off the AM and FM transmitters in the mainland State capitals.

Very premature I would have thought. So many vehicles on the road in Australia have a radio limited to AM and FM. And so many brand new car models in showrooms lack DAB+. 

In times of emergency, authorities need to be able to issue warnings and provide information using a radio band that the great majority of people can tune to.

 

On 6/3/2017 at 11:14 AM, alanh said:

The electricity bill for the ABC alone is between 1 and 2 million dollars a year in those cities. This is the major selling point of DAB+.

I was under the impression the main two selling points of DAB+ were improved audio quality [compared with adverse reception of analogue transmissions], and the ease with which a large number of services can be accommodated [using one DAB+ channel and transmitter].  Certainly these are the sorts of messages I frequently see in promotional material.  Saving of electricity costs at the transmission end of the chain is something I see mentioned when a longer, more comprehensive, list of advantages is presented.

If you asked a member of the public what the major selling point of DAB+ is, I'd imagine they'd answer "audio quality". 

If you were asking the ABC about the economics of DAB+ compared with sticking with analogue radio you could do well to ask how many additional staff have been required to produce the new services that were spawned when DAB+ was introduced. I suspect that those costs have been substantial, very possibly greater than electricity costs.

Edited June 11, 2017 by MLXXX

[hrh]

13 hours ago, hrh said:

But as per usual, this is going off topic.

My commenting of this was not in particular at JTK, but rather more an indication of items once again brought up by our favourite commenter and our taking the bait thereby going off topic.
I have deliberately been keeping out of participating in threads for a while because of running with them off topic, and/or having my own comment(s)/observations turned back at me with embellishments to make it look as though I have absolutely no idea what I am talking about and that there is only one person here qualified to provide us with all we should know or need to know. Whilst I don't have a comprehensive knowledge I do have a reasonable cross sectional idea and am open to correction - such as my remark above on standby TXs.

As far as the topic goes, it is all very well for that nation to be doing what they are, but that is them with different geography and vastly smaller area than Australia. DRM may be able to provide the coverage but it is still in its infancy with regard to take up or availability of receivers, unlike the incumbent analog.
To suggest that we here should implement the change to DAB, sorry, for the pedants DAB+, from analog in the same manner as was done with TV and have a "cuttoff" is at the moment a proverbial pipe dream. OK have a cutoff but it would have to be something like twenty years away.
Why?
There are far, far, far more analog radios in use and would need replacing then there ever was TVs, and radios (I would imagine based on my personal experience) don't get replaced or upgraded like TVs. The vehicle manufacturers are slowly coming onboard, but let's have look at the provision of radios in cars. They were rare in the 60s especially as a standard fitment, in fact a non event except for the really high end makes and models. In the 70s they began to be provided as standard in except possibly the very base model, but that was soon done away with and even they were being given a radio as standard, and then only AM across the board. FM had barely begun and if you wanted an FM/AM radio you had to typically get it as aftermarket and probably as a cassette radio unit which wasn't bad.

How many years later did it become standard for the provision of an FM/AM radio pretty much everywhere?
And that's not changing from one method of transmission to completely replace another as is being suggested with analog to digital.
So I think to be continually saying, "look at what this country is doing, we should be doing the same", is a touch premature and needs a lot of forethought. It isn't going to/can't happen overnight or a couple of years. There is just plainly and simply too much in the way of receiver infrastructure out there to change over as well as just simply the provision/manufacture of same.

Edited June 11, 2017 by hrh

[Basil1503559642]

46 minutes ago, hrh said:

My commenting of this was not in particular at JTK, but rather more an indication of items once again brought up by our favourite commenter and our taking the bait thereby going off topic.
I have deliberately been keeping out of participating in threads for a while because of running with them off topic, and/or having my own comment(s)/observations turned back at me with embellishments to make it look as though I have absolutely no idea what I am talking about and that there is only one person here qualified to provide us with all we should know or need to know. Whilst I don't have a comprehensive knowledge I do have a reasonable cross sectional idea and am open to correction - such as my remark above on standby TXs.

I agree,this Forum has to clean out the attitudes of the last 10 years and start wiping posts and suspending people,any semblance of thread wrecking and personal abuse has to be crushed or the new Forum will continue its decline into oblivion.

I've been posting here since 2002 and its just a shame to see the Thread wreckers all still here and still using multiple Accts. 

 

[Guest]

22 hours ago, James T Kirk said:

How do you come up with this stuff.

What AM and FM stations do you think have back ups.

James

I asked the question above simply because the information given by the poster is again inaccurate

[alanh]

James Kirk,

You are the poster who recommended viewers watch a signal from 70 km away using an expensive antenna system, when there is a translator within 8 km which is recommended by the antenna manufacturers and the Department of Communications requiring an inexpensive antenna..

Where do I get the info from?

Not my vacuous head.

I research the details of my post. In this case all transmitters must have licences and they are publically listed.

As for power consumption for AM you have to know how the technology works, by passing exams which you have never done.

Other hallmarks of your posts include your lack of knowledge of Single Frequency Networks and DAB+ repeaters. That thread had to be shut down because of abusive posts which did not come from me.

Basil,

I have filled out a radio ratings survey and they could separate the DAB+ from the analog reception from the questions they ask in the table of what you listen to.

Hrh, I was in Kmart last week. The only radios and audio equipment they had was either FM only or DAB+/FM this included clock radios, tabletop radios and boom boxes. The only exception was a very small CD player which had AM.

I should also remind you that in 2009 there was no DAB+ digital radios in listeners hands throughout the world because we were the first to commence permanent high power broadcasting of DAB+. Now it is widespread in Europe Population over 500 million. The Norwegians are switching off FM, they don't have AM, and it will be complete by the end of the year. Their reason is the high cost of simulcasting with FM. AM costs a lot more. Car drivers buy a device like http://www.pure.com/car-audio/digital-radio-bluetooth-car-adapters nearly all new cars come with DAB+ factory fitted which is also happening here, if you check the specifications of the popular cars. eg, Hyundai, Mazda, Holden, Ford and Toyota.

India with a population of 1300 million has now finished rolling out 37 very high powered DRM transmitters. 4 are DRM only the others are AM/DRM broadcasting with one hour a day pure DRM. They are now adding additional functions such as pictures and Journaline multiline text service. Their pure DRM transmissions are in stereo which is not done on AM. There next step is ramp up the manufacture of receivers. In addition Indonesia population 200 million has signed up to roll out DRM. What is our population? A mere 24 million. We got DAB+ off the ground, however the prime mover of DAB+ broadcasting has retired, hence no push in country areas for DRM.

All,

Just to give you some of the economics, ABC local radio has 85 AM transmitters radiating 869 kW when there is no program which increases as the volume increases. The audio is carried in a pair of sidebands which require power of their own. At full volume the carrier is still 60 % of the radiated power and carries no audio.

ABC Radio National 23 AM transmitters radiating 270 kW

ABC NewsRadio  5 AM transmitters radiating 17 kW

SBS 5 AM transmitters radiating 18 kW

The transmitter electricity consumption is substantially greater than that because not only does the audio power have to be added also does cooling.

DRM transmitters use between 50 - 60 % less power because they don't have a useless high powered carrier just a few low powered pilot tones for the same receiver functions.

 

ABC Local Radio 161 FM transmitters radiating 3.005 MW effective radiating power + 132 FM transmitters totalling 10 kW of community funded retransmitters

ABC Radio National 234 FM transmitters radiating 3.018 MW + 80 FM retransmitters totalling 6 kW

ABC News Radio 76 FM transmitters radiating 2.97 MW + 2 retransmitters totalling 171 W

ABC FM 68 transmitters radiating 5.084 MW + 30 retransmitters totalling 2.7 kW

JJJ 58 FM transmitters radiating 5.067 MW + 181 retransmitters totalling 21 kW

SBS FM 9 transmitters radiating 680 kW +137 retransmitters totalling 20 kW

By comparison currently there is only 250 kW effective radiating power transmissions from 7 transmitters for the ABC/SBS permanently broadcasting.

The electricity consumption of FM and DAB+ transmitters cannot be calculated from publically available data.

None of the above statistics include standby transmitters 

AM local radio 40 transmitters 726 kW

AM Radio National 10 x 214 kW

AM Newsradio 4 X 32 kW

By far the cheapest way of giving the 40 % of Australia living outside of the DAB+ areas digital radio is a very high powered DRM HF transmitter for Radio National/NewsRadio, and another for NT Local radio co-sited at the geographic centre of Australia, South of Alice Springs. Then every Australian will have at least 3 programs to listen to including whilst mobile in cars and boats. Local radio is still supposed to be "local" and DRM+ would work better in regional areas for coverage than the higher frequency DAB+ broadcasts. In addition DRM+ could easily carry the AM and FM programs of a commercial station along with advertising using pictures.

Australia was at the forefront of digital radio and now has dropped the ball, we need DRM for our vast areas of low population density which is not the case in Europe and parts of Asia.

Alanh

Edited June 12, 2017 by alanh
add standby

[Guest]

7 hours ago, alanh said:

James Kirk,

You are the poster who recommended viewers watch a signal from 70 km away using an expensive antenna system, when there is a translator within 8 km which is recommended by the antenna manufacturers and the Department of Communications requiring an inexpensive antenna..

Where do I get the info from?

Not my vacuous head.

I research the details of my post. In this case all transmitters must have licences and they are publically listed.

As for power consumption for AM you have to know how the technology works, by passing exams which you have never done.

Other hallmarks of your posts include your lack of knowledge of Single Frequency Networks and DAB+ repeaters. That thread had to be shut down because of abusive posts which did not come from me.

All,

Just to give you some of the economics, ABC local radio has 85 AM transmitters radiating 869 kW when there is no program which increases as the volume increases. The audio is carried in a pair of sidebands which require power of their own. At full volume the carrier is still 60 % of the radiated power and carries no audio.

ABC Radio National 23 AM transmitters radiating 270 kW

ABC NewsRadio  5 AM transmitters radiating 17 kW

SBS 5 AM transmitters radiating 18 kW

The transmitter electricity consumption is substantially greater than that because not only does the audio power have to be added also does cooling.

DRM transmitters use between 50 - 60 % less power because they don't have a useless high powered carrier just a few low powered pilot tones for the same receiver functions.

 

ABC Local Radio 161 FM transmitters radiating 3.005 MW effective radiating power + 132 FM transmitters totalling 10 kW of community funded retransmitters

ABC Radio National 234 FM transmitters radiating 3.018 MW + 80 FM retransmitters totalling 6 kW

ABC News Radio 76 FM transmitters radiating 2.97 MW + 2 retransmitters totalling 171 W

ABC FM 68 transmitters radiating 5.084 MW + 30 retransmitters totalling 2.7 kW

JJJ 58 FM transmitters radiating 5.067 MW + 181 retransmitters totalling 21 kW

SBS FM 9 transmitters radiating 680 kW +137 retransmitters totalling 20 kW

By comparison currently there is only 250 kW effective radiating power transmissions from 7 transmitters for the ABC/SBS permanently broadcasting.

The electricity consumption of FM and DAB+ transmitters cannot be calculated from publically available data.

None of the above statistics include standby transmitters 

AM local radio 40 transmitters 726 kW

AM Radio National 10 x 214 kW

AM Newsradio 4 X 32 kW

By far the cheapest way of giving the 40 % of Australia living outside of the DAB+ areas digital radio is a very high powered DRM HF transmitter for Radio National/NewsRadio, and another for NT Local radio co-sited at the geographic centre of Australia, South of Alice Springs. Then every Australian will have at least 3 programs to listen to including whilst mobile in cars and boats. Local radio is still supposed to be "local" and DRM+ would work better in regional areas for coverage than the higher frequency DAB+ broadcasts. In addition DRM+ could easily carry the AM and FM programs of a commercial station along with advertising using pictures.

Australia was at the forefront of digital radio and now has dropped the ball, we need DRM for our vast areas of low population density which is not the case in Europe and parts of Asia.

Alanh

Some responses

“You are the poster who recommended viewers watch a signal from 70 km away using an expensive antenna system, when there is a translator within 8 km which is recommended by the antenna manufacturers and the Department of Communications requiring an inexpensive antenna.” Yes absolutely, dear reader, what is conveniently omitted is the person wanted to use VHF, was shaded from the local transmitter and was located on a bearing of minimum ERP from the local site, in other words VHF from Brisbane was superior.

“Where do I get the info from?  Not my vacuous head.” It is not for me state whether the poster’s head is vacuous or not, but genuinely, I see no reason to debate his suggestion.

“I research the details of my post. In this case all transmitters must have licences and they are publically listed.” Google is certainly your friend.

“As for power consumption for AM you have to know how the technology works, by passing exams which you have never done.”  I think this may be your TVOCP/BOCP reference again. With all due respect to those who attained this, there are many who only stood in from of a transmitter during the TVOCP/BOCP exam and have never since, there are others who made it their career and have excelled. I will leave it to the reader to consider which category the poster fits best.

“Other hallmarks of your posts include your lack of knowledge of Single Frequency Networks and DAB+ repeaters. That thread had to be shut down because of abusive posts which did not come from me.” This possibly was the pinnacle of the poster’s display of ineptness and belligerence, I would welcome anyone interested in SFN’s to read my posts of a decade or so ago.

All,

“Just to give you some of the economics, ABC local radio has 85 AM transmitters radiating 869 kW when there is no program which increases as the volume increases. The audio is carried in a pair of sidebands which require power of their own. At full volume the carrier is still 60 % of the radiated power and carries no audio.

ABC Radio National 23 AM transmitters radiating 270 kW

ABC NewsRadio  5 AM transmitters radiating 17 kW

SBS 5 AM transmitters radiating 18 kW

The transmitter electricity consumption is substantially greater than that because not only does the audio power have to be added also does cooling.

DRM transmitters use between 50 - 60 % less power because they don't have a useless high powered carrier just a few low powered pilot tones for the same receiver functions.

ABC Local Radio 161 FM transmitters radiating 3.005 MW effective radiating power + 132 FM transmitters totalling 10 kW of community funded retransmitters

ABC Radio National 234 FM transmitters radiating 3.018 MW + 80 FM retransmitters totalling 6 kW

ABC News Radio 76 FM transmitters radiating 2.97 MW + 2 retransmitters totalling 171 W

ABC FM 68 transmitters radiating 5.084 MW + 30 retransmitters totalling 2.7 kW

JJJ 58 FM transmitters radiating 5.067 MW + 181 retransmitters totalling 21 kW

SBS FM 9 transmitters radiating 680 kW +137 retransmitters totalling 20 kW

By comparison currently there is only 250 kW effective radiating power transmissions from 7 transmitters for the ABC/SBS permanently broadcasting.

The electricity consumption of FM and DAB+ transmitters cannot be calculated from publically available data.

None of the above statistics include standby transmitters

AM local radio 40 transmitters 726 kW

AM Radio National 10 x 214 kW

AM Newsradio 4 X 32 kW”  I will credit the poster with having far more time to put into this forum than I have, however the simplistic and ill-informed conclusions as described above are quite telling. Comparing  DAB+ to AM radio is simply ridiculous. DAB+ transmitters with their multiple audio streams are 16% efficient in terms of power consumed to RF out and have a reliable coverage radius under 40km, the local ABC radio AM transmitters are 75% efficient when related to licenced transmitter power and reliably cover 200km radius.

“By far the cheapest way of giving the 40 % of Australia living outside of the DAB+ areas digital radio is a very high powered DRM HF transmitter for Radio National/NewsRadio, and another for NT Local radio co-sited at the geographic centre of Australia, South of Alice Springs. Then every Australian will have at least 3 programs to listen to including whilst mobile in cars and boats. Local radio is still supposed to be "local" and DRM+ would work better in regional areas for coverage than the higher frequency DAB+ broadcasts. In addition DRM+ could easily carry the AM and FM programs of a commercial station along with advertising using pictures.”  No question it is the cheapest but when the ACMA received the poster’s submission on this it was quickly filed away with the posters other wild submissions. I think this drawer is opened when the ACMA staff feel sad and need a good laugh.

“Australia was at the forefront of digital radio and now has dropped the ball, we need DRM for our vast areas of low population density which is not the case in Europe and parts of Asia”  We were never at the forefront, all that happened was some limited trials in the 90’s. DRM+ will be part of the digitisation solution for radio in this country, but it will never be implemented in the manner described by the poster.

My question to the poster was

"What AM and FM stations do you think have back ups" , the absence of a response indicates the poster does not know.

I simply questioned the accuracy because I know the posters numbers were wrong.

James

[Guest Malich]

On 12/6/2017 at 9:19 PM, James T Kirk said:

Quote

You are the poster who recommended viewers watch a signal from 70 km away using an expensive antenna system, when there is a translator within 8 km which is recommended by the antenna manufacturers and the Department of Communications requiring an inexpensive antenna.

Yes absolutely, dear reader, what is conveniently omitted is the person wanted to use VHF, was shaded from the local transmitter and was located on a bearing of minimum ERP from the local site, in other words VHF from Brisbane was superior.

 

On 12/6/2017 at 9:19 PM, James T Kirk said:

Quote

Other hallmarks of your posts include your lack of knowledge of Single Frequency Networks and DAB+ repeaters. That thread had to be shut down because of abusive posts which did not come from me.

This possibly was the pinnacle of the poster’s display of ineptness and belligerence, I would welcome anyone interested in SFN’s to read my posts of a decade or so ago.

It's a pity those posts - in fact, most of the content of those threads, plus any other posts that quoted or even linked to the missing posts - have been lost to the forum. It'd certainly help set the record straight if they still existed here.

Let's hope the new management are paying a bit more attention to backups & general data integrity...

 

On 3/6/2017 at 11:14 AM, alanh said:

Its about time decisions were made to switch off the AM and FM transmitters in the mainland State capitals. The electricity bill for the ABC alone is between 1 and 2 million dollars a year in those cities.

If in fact Alan's numbers are accurate, let's put them in a bit of context: "between 1 and 2 million dollars a year" amounts to ~0.1% of the ABC's annual budget.

On 12/6/2017 at 1:21 PM, alanh said:

DRM transmitters use between 50 - 60 % less power because they don't have a useless high powered carrier just a few low powered pilot tones for the same receiver functions.

Isn't it also true that modern AM transmitters using MDCL/AML/DCC/PDM etc at typical settings are just as power-efficient as DRM transmitters? And due to the differing peak-to-average power ratio, duty cycle, etc, of DRM vs AM transmission, a DRM transmitter putting out (for example) 20kW has to basically be equivalent in construction to a (more expensive) 50kW AM transmitter?

Seems to me that the first step - at least until there's hope of more than a small handful of DRM receiver models being available - would be to update their transmitters to a modern AM design. They'd be just as energy efficient on AM as DRM; broadcasts could easily be converted now or in the future to either AM/DRM simulcast or 100% DRM (you basically can't buy a plain AM-only transmitter any more - they're all DRM capable out of the box); and you'd save the whole population having to upgrade to radios that don't really exist despite the DRM consortium trying hard for the last ~15 years...

[alanh]

Malich,

I have just watched Four Corners your bible.

I don't care what efficiencies you don't understand about AM transmitters. You still have to transmit the carrier which will be between 60 and 100 % of the output.

Alanh

[Guest Malich]

17 minutes ago, alanh said:

Malich,

I have just watched Four Corners your bible.

Since Alan is never going to give a clear answer to anything: would anyone else care to take a guess at what the heck that's supposed to mean? Is it meant as an insult? If so, it's not a terribly good one...

17 minutes ago, alanh said:

I don't care what efficiencies you don't understand about AM transmitters. You still have to transmit the carrier which will be between 60 and 100 % of the output.

I clearly know a bit more about modern transmitters than you do. Things have obviously changed a bit since you last had anything to do with one (you no longer have to shovel coal into them to make them run, for one... ). You might like to look up some of the things I mentioned - Nautel, for one, has some good articles & white papers on those techniques, and there's plenty of real-world case studies confirming the efficiency gains from them...

Edited June 19, 2017 by Malich

[MLXXX]

57 minutes ago, Malich said:

It's a pity those posts - in fact, most of the content of those threads, plus any other posts that quoted or even linked to the missing posts - have been lost to the forum. It'd certainly help set the record straight if they still existed here.

Let's hope the new management are paying a bit more attention to backups & general data integrity...

Yes a lot of alanh's surprising claims and the detailed explanations provided to him by other forum members seem to have been lost. However, I've been able to locate a post that summarises a relevant surprising claim by alanh:

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Entry 001

...

Facts supplied: According to the Maleny viewer, the advice supplied by James was successfully implemented; the signal was and remained stronger from Brisbane; trees interfered with the reception from Bald Knob.

Thread references: See analysis at post #263 of Get The Best Reception, Sunshine Coast

Claim retracted: no, as at 26/5/13

_____________

 

Unfortunately, the Get The Best Reception Sunshine Coast thread is currently incomplete. This matter was really very simple: trees blocked reception from a relatively close transmission site; reception was successful from a more distant site that provided line of sight reception. James' advice was sound. The person querying the advice failed to give sufficient weight to the effect of the trees.