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Matt_Walker

BenQ X12000 LED 4K Projector Launch

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8 minutes ago, sero said:

what was the damage on one of these?

RRP is $9999, but a little bird told me that there might be a deal coming soon to a forum near you...

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Actually the black level of DLP can never be even close to Sony levels, let alone JVC, because DLP technology is incapable of more than about 2000:1 native contrast compared to 10,000 plus for Sony LCoS and 30,000 plus for JVC Dila.

The so called "4K" TI imaging chip apparently has worse native contrast than the 1080 DLP chips so 2000:1 is likley wishful thinking. That sort of contrast was never ever acceptable, even 30,000:1 is marginal IMHO.

Then there are the other inherent limitations in single chip DLP to contend with, and at $10k Benq must be smocking some good gear if they think their product makes any sense.

As for the LED light source, I cant see the point. If the basics of performance aren't there who cares if the light source lasts for ever? In reality most projector users likley replace a lamp once in the life of a projector, after that any projector is pretty much obsolete so some future owner is going to get the advantage of the long lasting light source, assuming the projector has not gone to land fill by then.

Its also highly unlikely the LED based Benq will be brighter than a lamp based projector after calibrated for accurate colour. DLP normally looses a LOT of light output after colour  calibrated.

I know this comes across as negative, but its on the mark and a reality check to counter the comments of some posters who seem to have vested interests here.

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Thanks for that insight Owen,no vested interest here,actually own a JVC ,never owned a BenQ ,just calling it as I saw it presented !have you seen one yet?

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Owen, we know your obsession with contrast above all else.

I've previously owned a BenQ W6000, but nowadays run a JVC X500 and am not tied to any particular tech or brand. We switched between a few rooms running different PJs including JVCs and 4K Sonys - the JVCs definitely have better contrast, but for those of us not obsessed by contrast, the BenQ's lower contrast wasn't distracting.

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7 hours ago, Owen said:

I know this comes across as negative, but its on the mark and a reality check to counter the comments of some posters who seem to have vested interests here.

The key word here is SOME .... I agree Owen.  They are trying to fan the flames to generate more sales. 

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Its always interesting to read perspectives of people ACTUALLY having seen something to give their impressions. thanks guys and matt for creating the opportunity :)

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Hey all,

Thanks for coming down and I am glad you enjoyed the night!

Big Picture People Fountain Gate is a favourite of mine - the store is everything I wanted for my business but could never afford!

As for those who physically came and saw the projector I thank you - Figures on paper do not tell any story - put the BenQ X12000 side by side with any projector (other than perhaps a DILA) and I guarantee the blacks will be as good - I would even go as far as to say I would be prepared to give you your money back!  

This BenQ is actually that good!

We were lucky enough to have a BenQ X12000, Epson, Sony and JVC all within a few metres of each other last night and for those who saw a real word demonstration the colours, black levels, FOFO contrast, Brightness - the BenQ differences were clear.  Not on paper - but as seen through your own eyes.

1080P upscaled to 4K - UHD 4K displayed on 8.3 million individually addressable pixels - A globe that no one will ever need to replace and a realistic price for all this!

Could the blacks be better?

Could the colour range be better?

Did it need to be brighter?

Could it be cheaper?

I know the answer to all of these but I get to see real world comparisons all day long.  

I get to talk to guys who see this thing and compare to what they have now and have used in the past - I don't always believe what I read, but I generally believe what I see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears...

Go down to BPP Fountain Gate this weekend and check it out for yourself - Don't take my "vested interest / biased" opinion for it - see it and then come back here and tell me what you really think ...

I am a big boy :) I can take it!

Cheers,

Matt

 

 

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14 hours ago, Matt_Walker said:

We were lucky enough to have a BenQ X12000, Epson, Sony and JVC all within a few metres of each other last night and for those who saw a real word demonstration the colours, black levels, FOFO contrast, Brightness - the BenQ differences were clear.  Not on paper - but as seen through your own eyes.

 

Where you using an X9000 JVC for comparison? Its the model the BenQ has to compete against, not an X5000.

To do a proper controlled comparison all the projectors must be colour and gamma calibrated to the same standard and light output should be equalised as should the effects of digital sharpening, which may require external processing. The room should be a total bat cave with black ceiling, walls and floor plus all light sources should be excluded so the room is completely dark or high contrast projectors wont show their true performance.

After proper setup and calibration the differences between projectors will be very small and come down to aspects of performance that cant be adjusted such as native contrast, fill factor, lens issues, convergence issues. Often the visible differences are so minor that they would not be noticeable unless a side by side comparison was performed and any difference that small isn't worth worrying about. Comparing projectors at the same time in the same room is also a big no no, high contrast projectors will be disadvantaged and the average person is going to perceive the brighter and or more colourful image as "better" even if its not accurate and unnecessarily bright. When viewed in isolation the perception can be very different.

 

So lets start with colour. If colours do not look the same between projectors there is a calibration problem or an inability of one or both of the projectors to be accurately calibrated. Something as simple as a difference in gamma will change the appearance of colour so its best to ignore colour differences when evaluating projectors or TV's provided it is established via independent testing that colour can gamma can be calibrated to a high standard. If it can you wont be disappointed.

Black level. DLP should be thought of as the IPS LCD of the projector world while a top end JVC is like a high end Plasma or OLED, the difference in native contrast is vast.

Many people are perfectly happy with low contrast LCD TV's, as long as the picture is bright and colourful (usually over colourful) they are happy. I can see how the average consumer would be impressed by the BenQ, provided no one in the family has issues with single chip DLP rainbows. The sort of people that where into high end Plasma and now OLED and not likely to be so impressed.

On a full black screen the Benq's LED light source can be dimmed or turned off completed for absolute black, BUT who thinks watching a full black screen is entertaining? As soon as even one pixel needs to be on the light source must be on and the native contrast performance of the projector comes into play. In dark scenes high native contrast is required for image depth and realism, 30,000:1 native contrast is pretty ordinary and 90,000:1 is good but not great IMHO. The 2000:1 or less that is to be expected from DLP is just sad as far as I am concerned. Different stocks for different folks I suppose.

 

 

FOFO contrast. I dont see how that is relevant to actual video content, its a pointless metric of performance.

 

 

Brightness. What is the actual measured brightness of the BenQ when fully calibrated for accurate Rec.709 colour, and how much does it drop when accurate P3 colour is attempted?

Was the BenQ colour calibrated for the demo? If not people did not get to see its true brightness.

LED light sources typically look brighter to the eye even when they aren't due to the spectral distribution of the primary colours. This can also result in differences in colour perception by different individuals which is a problem as far as directors intent is concerned. The colour meter says colour is correct while the perceived colour varies between people.

Given that most current projectors are too bright I fail to see how brightness is a big deal unless you have a very large screen.

15 hours ago, Matt_Walker said:

1080P upscaled to 4K - UHD 4K displayed on 8.3 million individually addressable pixels

DLP with wobulation (pixel shift) has been around for a decade and it works well, however it imposes a much higher load on that single imaging chip that is already tasked with time sharing to put a colour image on screen. Wobulation reduces the pulse width modulation frequency that controls colour graduations so its no free lunch. High end DLP uses three chips for good reason.

The whole pixels thing is marketing and people should disregard it. 4K video is limited to about 3K best case (4K visible resolution is IMPOSSIBLE with 4K video) and most of the time movies are less than 2K visible due to limitations in the original source.

Up scaling does not add any resolution.

 

 

15 hours ago, Matt_Walker said:

A globe that no one will ever need to replace and a realistic price for all this!

It seems to me that the premium being charged for that long life light source is more than a lifetimes cost in lamps.

 

I'm sure there is a market out there for the BenQ, but it not me.

 

 

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Wow


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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What was the noise coming out of it? Id be interested in and LED or Laser projector is they had no fan and made no audible noise?

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3 minutes ago, sero said:

What was the noise coming out of it? Id be interested in and LED or Laser projector is they had no fan and made no audible noise?

Couldn't really tell the noise floor - some new $50K Paradigms with 4 active bass drivers per unit were getting a workout in the room next door. They were very impressive but fan / mechanical noise could have been any level.

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Active paradigms wow i wonder how this sound compared to seaton sound actives?

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