SONY Z9D LCD FALD TVs

[betty boop]

here you go, OLED actually has a higher dynamic range capability .... than LCD....

Originally Posted by Kris Deering 

Well lets introduce some simple math into the equation to show whether or not this is the case. HDR stands for HIGH DYNAMIC RANGE. Dynamic Range relates to the difference between the highest and lowest point a display can display. This can be expressed as a ratio by taking the highest point and dividing it by the lowest point. This is also known as on/off contrast ratio. So:

OLED: 1,080,000:1 (540/.0005)
LCD: 20,000:1 (1000/.05)

As you can see, OLED has SUBSTANTIALLY more dynamic range than the specs for LCD based display with 1,000 nits. The overall CR of a LCD is actually pretty sad and would result in blacks that look more gray than black. With low APL imagery the difference between the two would look massive. But most LCD displays have zoned backlighting that helps with this. When we move to Dolby Vision content it actually has frame by frame metadata for controlling zoned backlighting and dynamic contrast systems that should help even more.

[Craig M]

2 minutes ago, doggiehowser1503564764 said:

Don't dismiss the ZD9 so quickly. The blacks are pretty damn impressive.

This is true.  I own one, and the blacks are very black.  On letterboxed movies, the black bars completely disappear.  The local dimming zones in those areas turn the LEDs completely off.  That is true black.

[betty boop]

4 minutes ago, doggiehowser1503564764 said:

Don't dismiss the ZD9 so quickly. The blacks are pretty damn impressive.

not dismissing... but even in that video you posted ... its so visibly deficient its not funny   but hey it might be just the video...happy to see in the shop for myself

that said if the oledis only sold with its floppy bottom and wobbly screen audio and such i still see as a bit of a waste to be spending on. and then again my kuro might never die... goodness knows what screens we will have when it eventually does hehe

[DoggieHowser]

This is true.  I own one, and the blacks are very black.  On letterboxed movies, the black bars completely disappear.  The local dimming zones in those areas turn the LEDs completely off.  That is true black.

Exactly.

It isn't just contrast ratio or the JVC X9500 would have trumped all over it.

It's the way the ZD9 handles the glare when the camera catches the light in Planet Earth.

That highlight was ALSO in the video in side by side comparisons

[Craig M]

And with HDR, it's a no brainer.  The specular highlights on the Z9D are amazing.

[MrGadget]

21 minutes ago, Craig M said:

And with HDR, it's a no brainer.  The specular highlights on the Z9D are amazing.

Stop it guys, I'm still waiting for mine to ship here.

[cwt]

26 minutes ago, said:

the silly peaks of LCD are really unnecessary and in any case OLED has bridged the great part of the gap there was previously. so will be in an even better place than ever

Interesting article below that shows how HDR works against having an overly bright room [ which is counterintuitively led's strong point ] . The 2nd HDR quote is encouraging for a 7000e projector Al  

Quote

Here’s the rub: because [Backlight] and [Contrast] are already maxed out on HDR televisions during the playback of 4K Ultra HD Blu-rays, there’s no straightforward way to increase the display’s light output during the day to avoid the picture being drowned out by competing ambient light – a good analogy is how you need to boost your smartphone’s screen brightness under the sun for the text to remain readable. Even with only a moderate amount of ambient light in our test room, dark HDR scenes (such as the dust storm sequence in The Martian) became extremely difficult to watch – our constricted pupils just weren’t able to discern sufficient shadow detail in the presence of room light.

Quote

 

This EOTF (ST2084) is intended to enable the creation of video images with an increased luminance range; not for creation of video images with overall higher luminance levels. For consistency of presentation across devices with different output brightness, average picture levels in content would likely remain similar to current luminance levels; i.e. mid-range scene exposures would produce currently expected luminance levels appropriate to video or cinema.

 

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-vs-201604104279.htm

 

[cwt]

20 minutes ago, MrGadget said:

Stop it guys, I'm still waiting for mine to ship here.

The last and best of the 4k 3d panels ?

[betty boop]

16 minutes ago, cwt said:

Interesting article below that shows how HDR works against having an overly bright room [ which is counterintuitively led's strong point ] . The 2nd HDR quote is encouraging for a 7000e projector Al

its a very good point... 

8 minutes ago, cwt said:

The last and best of the 4k 3d panels ?

goodness knows why they would drop 3D off the A1, thats definite minus for that screen.

[mwd]

11 hours ago, MrGadget said:

Stop it guys, I'm still waiting for mine to ship here.

Congratulations on obtaining one. Not sure on the Sony Strategy here as they never really pushed the Z9D and supply has seemed to be very limited and hardly ever seen in a retail store. Not useful if trying to boost a few sales. 

Just have to wonder if a similar situation will occur with the new A1 Oled 

[MLXXX]

15 hours ago, said:

here you go, OLED actually has a higher dynamic range capability .... than LCD....

Are you serious, Al? Would anyone here not already know that?  In fact we usually read that OLED provides infinite contrast.

 

15 hours ago, said:

the silly peaks of LCD are really unnecessary

They might be superfluous in a darkened room. I would be hesitant to say that for daytime viewing, or for nighttime viewing with some lights on.

 

On 5/7/2017 at 11:16 AM, said:

things like added  brightness of the lcd is of little relevance i would suggest .even in mastering even though mastering range by studious might be 1000 nits they dont ever use anything akin to that sort of scale in reality. id rather the black capabilities of oled. can even in that little clip see the benefit of which and thats not knowing if they have rigged to make more apparent or anything.

Whatever the studios may or may not be doing as regards mastering, and that would be on a title by title basis I would suggest, we can see in that "little clip" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE2Jj9pgWWk) that the screen on the left (the OLED) looks dimmer than the screen on the right, all the way through the demonstration. It's quite a substantial difference, affecting not just occasional peak whites.  

I'd prefer the screen on the right to be honest if simply using the clip to evaluate, as it appears on my LCD TV display. Of course -- as we've often remarked on this forum -- with today's high performance sets you can't get too much useful guidance about PQ from displaying a webpage picture or a web video of such a set using your own computer monitor, TV screen, or projector.

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by MLXXX

[MLXXX]

13 hours ago, cwt said:

Interesting article below that shows how HDR works against having an overly bright room [ which is counterintuitively led's strong point ] .

 

Here’s the rub: because [Backlight] and [Contrast] are already maxed out on HDR televisions during the playback of 4K Ultra HD Blu-rays, there’s no straightforward way to increase the display’s light output during the day to avoid the picture being drowned out by competing ambient light – a good analogy is how you need to boost your smartphone’s screen brightness under the sun for the text to remain readable. Even with only a moderate amount of ambient light in our test room, dark HDR scenes (such as the dust storm sequence in The Martian) became extremely difficult to watch –

our constricted pupils just weren’t able to discern sufficient shadow detail in the presence of room light. [emphasis added]

Cwt, I've noticed myself that with my LCD TV in HDR mode displaying a UHD HDR source that I cannot discern the shadow detail in the daytime. I have to watch HDR content at nighttime. I find this is not such a problem with conventional Blu-rays as their mastering typically employs a gamma curve that crushes the darker shadow detail to black to begin with.

These issues are not easy to deal with. For years I have complained about crushed blacks in conventional Blu-rays, but now that we at long last have HDR video being supplied to us, there is still the question whether the display technology can really deliver it. And even whether our eyesight can actually see it depending on the state of constriction of our pupils.

[cwt]

6 hours ago, MLXXX said:

Cwt, I've noticed myself that with my LCD TV in HDR mode displaying a UHD HDR source that I cannot discern the shadow detail in the daytime. I have to watch HDR content at nighttime. I find this is not such a problem with conventional Blu-rays as their mastering typically employs a gamma curve that crushes the darker shadow detail to black to begin with.

These issues are not easy to deal with. For years I have complained about crushed blacks in conventional Blu-rays, but now that we at long last have HDR video being supplied to us, there is still the question whether the display technology can really deliver it. And even whether our eyesight can actually see it depending on the state of constriction of our pupils.

Good to hear your in use perspective MLXXX ; I would consider a specular highlight from HDR  being all the more dramatic when transposed with a truly dark backdrop ; just as happens in real life with say a fireworks display . But this is only speculation on my part as I am still to get a uhd panel   It seems logical that SHD and UHD are graded differently for gamma when mastered as you have 66gb to play with not 50 anymore and its all about finer "shades'' ; 

Yes display technology is in its infancy with oled as each generation makes strides in nit levels ; this quote was from CES 2015 and is the picture parameter oled is focusing on thankfully

Quote

The result is an increase in peak light output of highlights from about 500 nits (a measure of brightness) using the current technology to 800, an increase of 60 percent.

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by cwt

[Craig M]

The Australian Sony Z9D received the Android 7.0 update rollout today.

On-screen menus have changed.

Also, I'm now getting consistent Dolby Digital + bitstreams from HDMI-ARC via the built-in apps of Netflix and Amazon Prime to my Yamaha receiver.  This bodes well for Netflix's eventual rollout of Dolby Atmos via streaming to Android TVs.

 

This is not the Dolby Vision firmware update though, which is rumoured to be released around August sometime.

[DoggieHowser]

 

Well worth a watch if you are considering the two. 

 

[gbickle1503560852]

16 hours ago, doggiehowser1503564764 said:

 

Well worth a watch if you are considering the two. 

 

Excellent unbiased comparison. Pitch black viewing with treated walls and ceiling OLED is the go. Light room, the choice becomes harder. (Pick your poison)

[MLXXX]

3 hours ago, gbickle1503560852 said:

Excellent unbiased comparison. Pitch black viewing with treated walls and ceiling OLED is the go. Light room, the choice becomes harder. (Pick your poison)

Decisions are very difficult, particularly if wanting a very large screen size where the premium to be paid for OLED over LCD is still considerable or OLED might not be manufactured yet in that larger size.

I have an extra factor to include in the mix in that the main TV is also often used for net surfing and word processing, i.e. as a computer monitor. The Automatic Power Limiting of OLED would tend to kick in when the screen was required to display almost entirely white.  I suspect my next purchase will be of a FALD LCD, despite the fact that some aspects of PQ would not be as good as with OLED technology.

[cwt]

Very interesting he said that the 2017 lg;s are the only models with dynamic tone mapping for hdr10 metadata to maintain apl's  @ around the 17.24 time That's a plus for those who want a good price ..

If only oled had higher peak brightness to match LCD ; with UHD discs being mastered at 1000 and 4000 nits I would prefer the tone mapping to better cover those ranges -and that means LCD ; and it means little if the tv is a bit thicker to do proper backlighting 'and there is also the 3d and games factor for those inclined..

Edited July 28, 2017 by cwt

[gbickle1503560852]

9 hours ago, MLXXX said:

Decisions are very difficult, particularly if wanting a very large screen size where the premium to be paid for OLED over LCD is still considerable or OLED might not be manufactured yet in that larger size.

I have an extra factor to include in the mix in that the main TV is also often used for net surfing and word processing, i.e. as a computer monitor. The Automatic Power Limiting of OLED would tend to kick in when the screen was required to display almost entirely white.  I suspect my next purchase will be of a FALD LCD, despite the fact that some aspects of PQ would not be as good as with OLED technology.

2017 Oled does 150nits on 100% white with ABL. 150nits is still too bright for me when using PC.  I would need sunglasses to use a PC monitor at 600nits but each to their own I guess.

I have a 65" 2016 Oled which I use as a PC monitor and dont find ABL an issue.  Having said that the Z9D is better in some ways than the OLEDs and if I had a bright room I would probably have gone Sony.

[MLXXX]

1 minute ago, gbickle1503560852 said:

2017 Oled does 150nits on 100% white with ABL. 150nits is still too bright for me when using PC.  I would need sunglasses to use a PC monitor at 600nits but each to their own I guess.

I have a 65" 2016 Oled which I use as a PC monitor and dont find ABL an issue.  Having said that the Z9D is better in some ways than the OLEDs and if I had a bright room I would probably have gone Sony.

Thanks for your comments regarding use of a 65" 2016 Oled.

I had been recalling my experience of a few years ago with plasma where the cutting in of the ABL was quite noticeable (as well as flicker for my flicker-sensitive eyes!). But perhaps if a late model OLED were set to a relatively dim level then it could operate as a pc monitor without ABL cutting in; and that relatively dim level might still be bright enough for net surfing and word processing and spreadsheets.  I'll have to look into this aspect carefully if I start seriously considering a particular OLED model.

[gbickle1503560852]

1 hour ago, MLXXX said:

Thanks for your comments regarding use of a 65" 2016 Oled.

I had been recalling my experience of a few years ago with plasma where the cutting in of the ABL was quite noticeable (as well as flicker for my flicker-sensitive eyes!). But perhaps if a late model OLED were set to a relatively dim level then it could operate as a pc monitor without ABL cutting in; and that relatively dim level might still be bright enough for net surfing and word processing and spreadsheets.  I'll have to look into this aspect carefully if I start seriously considering a particular OLED model.

Not sure which Plasma you had but I would say it would be half the brightness or less of the 2017 OLED on 100% white. OLED and LCD are so much better than Plasma for a PC Monitor in many ways.

100" OLED cant be too far away.  Id actually consider buying 4x 55" Oleds to make a 110" 8k screen using a high powered PC and Video card if they were completely borderless.

But anyway, back on track (dont want to derail thread). Sony did an amazing job with the Z9D and showed what could be done with LCD. It was as if the engineers were given a task of creating the best possible LCD Display device without worrying about a budget.

Edited July 28, 2017 by gbickle

[mwd]

Now Very Very Difficult to obtain here in Australia.

http://store.sony.com.au/KD65Z9D.html#start=1

 

[mwd]

Now reappeared on Sony Website as available this week.

http://store.sony.com.au/KD65Z9D.html

[bradp51]

On 6 August 2017 at 7:43 AM, mwd said:

Now reappeared on Sony Website as available this week.

http://store.sony.com.au/KD65Z9D.html

Looks like it is gone again.  65 in just too small though.  Would have liked to see a high quality 85 or 100.

[betty boop]

37 minutes ago, bradp51 said:

Looks like it is gone again.  65 in just too small though.  Would have liked to see a high quality 85 or 100.

gosh shudder to think what 100 would cost ! but yeah for big screens have to be 85 + I think