Gallo Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) Hello, I have been told i might have a null in my room as i am running a SVS sub that should be killing my room but it's lacking,Is there anyone out there that knows how to measure a room? i looked at REW and it's over my head Edited April 3, 2016 by Gallo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy8 Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Hello, I have been told i might have a null in my room as i am running a SVS sub that should be killing my room but it's lacking,Is there anyone out there that knows how to measure a room? i looked at REW and it's over my head I assume you tried looking at the REW manual ? It is not for beginners! Suggest you look at the bass integration guide, written by Paul Spencer. It is a 3 part doc which should help you understand issues with a sub and has a good step by step guide to using REW to tame your SVS. Should this be too much, then pay Paul, who is a member here (Red Spade Audio), to do all of this for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 try and pick up a velodyne sms-1 (seen 2 go for sale here) its pretty much bass for dummies. will quickly tell you with its real time analyser whats going on and will help position and then eq the sub if need be for best integration. there are other tools as well e.g. paradigms tool or the anti node for instance what is your room like too ? can you post some pics...while you are waiting measurement theres probably some no brainer things to try. using the room the best you can with location of sub, mains and main listening position should be step one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallo Posted April 3, 2016 Author Share Posted April 3, 2016 I assume you tried looking at the REW manual ? It is not for beginners! Suggest you look at the bass integration guide, written by Paul Spencer. It is a 3 part doc which should help you understand issues with a sub and has a good step by step guide to using REW to tame your SVS. Should this be too much, then pay Paul, who is a member here (Red Spade Audio), to do all of this for you. Hi Snoopy Yes i read through a REW guide that was written on plain english but that was over my head, love to see the technical manual Thank you i will have a read of the guide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallo Posted April 3, 2016 Author Share Posted April 3, 2016 try and pick up a velodyne sms-1 (seen 2 go for sale here) its pretty much bass for dummies. will quickly tell you with its real time analyser whats going on and will help position and then eq the sub if need be for best integration. there are other tools as well e.g. paradigms tool or the anti node for instance what is your room like too ? can you post some pics...while you are waiting measurement theres probably some no brainer things to try. using the room the best you can with location of sub, mains and main listening position should be step one Hi Thank you for responding, I currently have the Integra DHC-80.3 which has the Audyssey bass thing on it, i thought that would take care of that side? but sounds like an external eq could still be used I have attached a link to a drawing of the room layout, i would love your input http://i63.tinypic.com/28i47wz.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Hi Thank you for responding, I currently have the Integra DHC-80.3 which has the Audyssey bass thing on it, i thought that would take care of that side? but sounds like an external eq could still be used I have attached a link to a drawing of the room layout, i would love your input http://i63.tinypic.com/28i47wz.jpg Will review the drawing to comment, pictures tell a 1000 words though. It's not so much about eq. Keep in mind eq will only ever be a bandaid. Yes eq can perform a minor miracle, but People expect too much of eq. At best it can make best of a bad situation. More important in the room is location location location of main listening position and sub and even mains within the room. This is what primarily measure with the real time analyser will instantly tell you in about 5 sec and it's as easy as pie will be blindly obvious what's going on. Then best to use the tool to optimise location and only then eq. Which you will likely find your onkyo likely quite suitable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallo Posted April 3, 2016 Author Share Posted April 3, 2016 Will review the drawing to comment, pictures tell a 1000 words though. It's not so much about eq. Keep in mind eq will only ever be a bandaid. Yes eq can perform a minor miracle, but People expect too much of eq. At best it can make best of a bad situation. More important in the room is location location location of main listening position and sub and even mains within the room. This is what primarily measure with the real time analyser will instantly tell you in about 5 sec and it's as easy as pie will be blindly obvious what's going on. Then best to use the tool to optimise location and only then eq. Which you will likely find your onkyo likely quite suitable Hi and thanks again, do you feel it might be an idea to get someone in the measure the room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Hi and thanks again, do you feel it might be an idea to get someone in the measure the room? Personally I would pick up something user friendly ie bass for dummies like the options I suggested. It really is child's play and will learn so much more from the experience. Once done with it could always sell on. Have seen zero loss on these units being sold on. Resale is that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallo Posted April 3, 2016 Author Share Posted April 3, 2016 Personally I would pick up something user friendly ie bass for dummies like the options I suggested. It really is child's play and will learn so much more from the experience. Once done with it could always sell on. Have seen zero loss on these units being sold on. Resale is that good. Will do thank you for that, what were you thoughts on the layout?, i could not send a pic as i am driving prehistoric phone until i get a replacement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Will do thank you for that, what were you thoughts on the layout?, i could not send a pic as i am driving prehistoric phone until i get a replacement gallo on face value I would have thought to stay away from those corner locations for the sub in preference to the left of centre location. centre location in many rooms are often the no 1 best spot for a single sub. I would do something with the position of the seating though. as now it looks the typical error many make i.e. put couch upto the back...ending up back to the wall. this doesnt usually help things bass wise as end up with huge gain..which likely audyssey will just crank right down killing any life from it I suspect. also for coherency of vocals its not great to be so close to the back wall. a good suggestion i for one have found works in most room is the rule of 3rds.... which will have you sitting at the 2/3rd depth into the room i.e. in a 5m room you sit 3m back from the screen wall...this avoids the middle of the room which will typically have a huge null. and the back of the room which usually has huge gain. your side surrounds will be fine still if you move the couch forward as side surrounds can work pretty well from 90 deg from the sides of the couch to slightly behind at 110 deg will be just fine the other bonus of the couch moving forward a bit would mean it would give your rear speakers a bit of room to actually work with. you will be surprised the difference it will make giving both your sides and rears some room to create the side and rear stage which is probably a touch squashed in at the present between where you sit and the back wall also just to check what is your sub ? a 5x4 room is still a decent enough room and worth checking sound output wise not fighting an uphill battle ps audioholics does have some good pages with regards speaker setup for 5.1 nd 7.1 layouts. https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/speaker-placement-setup-tips-for-upgraded-home-theater-systems and sub placement guide, https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/easy-subwoofer-placement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallo Posted April 4, 2016 Author Share Posted April 4, 2016 gallo on face value I would have thought to stay away from those corner locations for the sub in preference to the left of centre location. centre location in many rooms are often the no 1 best spot for a single sub. I would do something with the position of the seating though. as now it looks the typical error many make i.e. put couch upto the back...ending up back to the wall. this doesnt usually help things bass wise as end up with huge gain..which likely audyssey will just crank right down killing any life from it I suspect. also for coherency of vocals its not great to be so close to the back wall. a good suggestion i for one have found works in most room is the rule of 3rds.... which will have you sitting at the 2/3rd depth into the room i.e. in a 5m room you sit 3m back from the screen wall...this avoids the middle of the room which will typically have a huge null. and the back of the room which usually has huge gain. your side surrounds will be fine still if you move the couch forward as side surrounds can work pretty well from 90 deg from the sides of the couch to slightly behind at 110 deg will be just fine the other bonus of the couch moving forward a bit would mean it would give your rear speakers a bit of room to actually work with. you will be surprised the difference it will make giving both your sides and rears some room to create the side and rear stage which is probably a touch squashed in at the present between where you sit and the back wall also just to check what is your sub ? a 5x4 room is still a decent enough room and worth checking sound output wise not fighting an uphill battle ps audioholics does have some good pages with regards speaker setup for 5.1 nd 7.1 layouts. https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/speaker-placement-setup-tips-for-upgraded-home-theater-systems and sub placement guide, https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/easy-subwoofer-placement Thank you for taking the time to put this together, much appreciated I understand the corner location are not best for sub placement, SVS suggested placing the sub into one of the corners, as indicated on the layout i have tried the in the left of the centre location with the same result, after this i tried the corner locations. The position of the seat in currently 1 meter from the back wall, how much more forward would you suggest? Great thank you will have a look at those links today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Thank you for taking the time to put this together, much appreciated I understand the corner location are not best for sub placement, SVS suggested placing the sub into one of the corners, as indicated on the layout i have tried the in the left of the centre location with the same result, after this i tried the corner locations. The position of the seat in currently 1 meter from the back wall, how much more forward would you suggest? Great thank you will have a look at those links today corners are great for bass boost but they also energise every room mode ! so not ideal solution in my opinion. as I mentioned with the rule of 3rds...try sitting at 2/3rd room length i.e. at abouts 3m from screen wall. and this with the sub not in the corner and re running audyssey following their instructions to the letter. if need a link to those yell out. would be worth confirming what the sub is too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallo Posted April 4, 2016 Author Share Posted April 4, 2016 corners are great for bass boost but they also energise every room mode ! so not ideal solution in my opinion. as I mentioned with the rule of 3rds...try sitting at 2/3rd room length i.e. at abouts 3m from screen wall. and this with the sub not in the corner and re running audyssey following their instructions to the letter. if need a link to those yell out. would be worth confirming what the sub is too... Wow thank you The links would be fantastic, sorry you did ask for the sub model earlier i meant to include it, its the SVS PB13 Ultra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 that should be plenty would have thought I dare say its placement vs main listening position THE guide...post 5701...please follow to the letter do not deviate do not stop at go http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/795421-official-audyssey-thread-faq-post-51779-a-191.html#post14456895 and the FAQ post 51778 http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/795421-official-audyssey-thread-faq-post-51779-a-1726.html#post21782993 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallo Posted April 4, 2016 Author Share Posted April 4, 2016 that should be plenty would have thought I dare say its placement vs main listening position THE guide...post 5701...please follow to the letter do not deviate do not stop at go http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/795421-official-audyssey-thread-faq-post-51779-a-191.html#post14456895 and the FAQ post 51778 http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/795421-official-audyssey-thread-faq-post-51779-a-1726.html#post21782993 Thank you, looks like i will be busy over the next couple of days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Spade Audio Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Hi and thanks again, do you feel it might be an idea to get someone in the measure the room? In a nutshell, when it comes to bass, I recommend taking acoustic measurements in your room for: determining the need for damping in the bass range and in particular, bass traps working out how many subs you require to optimise the seats in your room finding the best positions for your subs determining the right strategies and tools to optimise bass in your room optimising listening positions choosing the best calibration settings for your speakers and subs evaluating your current performance level and finding areas for improvement There is a great deal of information here and the measurements can help with many different decisions. An automatic calibration system will not equip you to make fully informed decisions here - more information is required along with the understanding of how to interpret and use the results. Here is one example. In some cases, you can get a better integration by allowing the mains to extend lower than you might have intended. You might overlap mains and sub. You might cross conventionally but at a lower point. Sometimes the mains have a smoother in-room bass response than the sub/s. With acoustic measurements, if taken with this in mind, you can determine how best to optimise. In some cases, I will do a "bass assessment" of a room before a client has decided on their subwoofer plan. They might be considering a very large sub, perhaps horn loaded, located in a hidden position. You can actually test for different sub locations and with that information, design a custom sub to fit the room. The result of this kind of study might be that you can use one sub very effectively, when you were intending to use four. In my room I achieve a bass response of +/- 1 db in the 3 main listening positions from 20 - 60 Hz which the sub covers. Armed with the knowledge that this was the best approach for my setup, I built a sub under the floor - a giant horn sub. Keep in mind that every single room is different. In some situations a corner sub is the best option. In others, a single sub on the front wall in the middle works very well. In some, there are a few good options. Quite a few 2 channel systems benefit from 2 subs in locations not easily predicted. And sometimes the Harman sub configuration (4 subs in midwall positions) works best. I never assume but always test to find out what will work out best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drizt Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Listen to Paul Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 For a good guide on using REW, have a look at this document. I had major bass issues in my (less than ideal) room. To overcome them, I bought a second sub. Adding the second sub was underwhelming, to say the least. It wasn't until I resorted to trying again to learn REW (I tried a few years ago and gave up) and started measuring, that I made any progress. It turned out, that I had major suckout issues. By relocationg the two subs and then playing with their tuning, I made signficant progress. I then added a miniDSP and made further progress. This is with a current Audyssey XT32 equipped AVR, which applies Audyssey to two subs, individually. Based on my recent experience, unless you have someone local who can help you with REW, or other measuring software and gear, you will make no real progress until you can measure your system in your room. I also reiterate what Al said about following the Audyseey links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandS Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 (edited) Have a talk to Paul at Red Spade about his remote room measurement service , it worked really well for me and was fun doing it. Edited April 12, 2016 by Sands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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