Guest Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Very few 7Mate shows are of interest to me. 7Two is gone though, I no longer bother with it, even Gem has a rare occasional repeat of a movie not seen in a long while. What a sham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape_from_Austec Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 If I have 200 apples and 100 oranges and only 50% of the apples are edible and only 35% of oranges are edible, what's the percentage of fruit that's edible? 85%? Wrong! Total fruit is 300 50% of 200 apples is 100 apples 35% of 100 oranges is 35 oranges Total edible is 135 To get the percentage of fruit that is edible, we take the edible (135) ÷ by total (300) and multiply by 100 as such: 135÷300×100=45% of total fruit is edible. It is not as simple as adding 2 percentages together. Oh yes it is, regional is not done by the metro networks ... I am only relaying what the source material is providing . It's a simple way to look at the consumer market right now, MPEG2 dominates because every device must do MPEG2 SD, the estimate (govt figures) of MPEG2 HD is approx 96% of devices currently in use. MPEG4 (regardless of SD/HD since the technology would all be both and even now UHD in some devices) at this stage in metro regions is 50% in take up rate and in regional zones take up rate is 35%. So until MPEG4 devices reaches more penetration rate the TV networks will keep MPEG2 in service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slattery Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 Digital tv began in 2001. Mpeg4 started rolling out in 2008. It is now 2016. We really have dragged the ball in regard to all this...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barkaz88 Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 hey all, is anyone able to do a bitrate test on 7hd to see how much 7 have dropped it since launch? im sure with 7flix changing to mpeg2 its sure to have taken abit of a hit. if we could get a current bitrate report of all the hd channels (7hd, 10hd and 9hd) that would be great. thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrh Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) 7Two is gone though, I no longer bother with it,They have some relatively new Air Crash Investigation/Disaster programs, so it isn't all a loss. hey all, is anyone able to do a bitrate test on 7hd to see how much 7 have dropped it since launch? im sure with 7flix changing to mpeg2 its sure to have taken abit of a hit.I would guess that the change from MPEG4 to 2 may have a small impact on the rest of the services, however given the loss of 74 and that HD is MPEG4 which uses less bandwidth/bitrate for the same quality, I would surmise that it is somewhat less than it used to be. The setup of the stat muxing would also play a part. I have no quantitative measurements to confirm or deny the theory. Edited June 5, 2016 by hrh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davmel Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 if we could get a current bitrate report of all the hd channels (7hd, 10hd and 9hd) that would be great. Seven network channels 5min average bitrate: 7SD 3.20 Mbps 7Two 2.77 Mbps 7mate 3.42 Mbps 7HD 6.32 Mbps 7flix 2.35 Mbps RACING 2.39 Mbps 9HD; 3.28 Mbps TenHD: 5.35 Mbps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barkaz88 Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 thanks for that davmel, thats perfect. geeeez, 9HD; 3.28 Mbps. thats an absolute disgrace channel 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Juggler Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) All the channels mentioned are statistically multiplexed, which means that the actual bitrates are as high or low as the material allows, within constraints set by the broadcaster. Actual min and max bitrates are far more relevant than average rates. In any case, without context, i.e. what content was on at the time, these type of snapshots are just what they are: snapshots. Edit: typos Edited June 5, 2016 by Rusty Juggler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DansDans Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 7flix moved to MPEG2? That means my old ancient (but very good looking) Sony LCD can now pick it up (who cares though, right?) I did a channel scan less than a week ago, so this is recent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape_from_Austec Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 All the FTA stations are being inundated with complaints that viewers can't watch HD channels because they don't have the needed equipment to view these channels. I'll say it again, Seven was testing 7flix in MPEG4 to see the reaction, they market (viewers) have told Seven what to do, so now it's MPEG2 and basically 100% of DVB-T equipment can decode the channel whereas before in metro region approx 50% of the DVB-T equipment could decode picture and audio. Don't be surprised is Seven do something that many won't like but 96% off the DVB-T equipment can decode and that is switch 7mateHD)/7HD to MPEG2 HD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Yep lets go back to PAL 576p and call that advancement. cheers laurie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 7flix moved to MPEG2? That means my old ancient (but very good looking) Sony LCD can now pick it up (who cares though, right?) I did a channel scan less than a week ago, so this is recent? DD http://www.tvtonight.com.au/2016/06/7flix-switch-boosts-channel-share.html cheers laurie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DansDans Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Ill be damned Laurie! Anyway, not that I watch FTA but this seems like a MASSIVE step backwards. Although, lets be honest here... Channel 7's main audience is over 80 year olds, and they wont have MPEG4 equipment (these were the same people kicking and screaming into the digital age) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLE3551503562118 Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Seven network channels 5min average bitrate: 7SD 3.20 Mbps 7Two 2.77 Mbps 7mate 3.42 Mbps 7HD 6.32 Mbps 7flix 2.35 Mbps RACING 2.39 Mbps 9HD; 3.28 Mbps TenHD: 5.35 Mbps Explains why the footy still looks better on Fox Footy. Still, ****'s all over what it was in SD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape_from_Austec Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Some good news (finally) expect 7HD to go full metro wide (as in where Seven own and operate metro station) soon, it will stay MPEG4 for the time being but once Olympics and AFK has ended for 2016 they might I stress ""MIGHT"" switch it to MPEG2 HD and putting it on LCN 07 with MPEG2 SD version finally being shut down. That was the original plan and I agree with that option, MPEG4 penetration rate is still very low (50% of metro DVB-T FTA market) and not increasing at a great rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davmel Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 they might I stress ""MIGHT"" switch it to MPEG2 HD and putting it on LCN 07 with MPEG2 SD version finally being shut down. Pigs will fly before that ever happens. HD channels aren't going back to MPEG-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James T Kirk Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 I have placed some examples of what I believe Rusty is describing in the attachments section, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape_from_Austec Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Pigs will fly before that ever happens. HD channels aren't going back to MPEG-2. Don't rule it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckent Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) they might I stress ""MIGHT"" switch it to MPEG2 HD and putting it on LCN 07 with MPEG2 SD version finally being shut down. Personally I like this idea better. MPEG-2 with more bitrate always has better texture than MPEG-4 with half the bitrate. Also worth thinking about this: Every network wastes precious bandwidth increasing the bitrate of their primary SD channel (more than the other SD channels) and for what? If they have an HD simulcast, what is the point? By turning off the SD simulcast, you get to claim that back. CK. Edited June 6, 2016 by ckent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape_from_Austec Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 SBS has right idea, shame about some of the content though, but they are smart operators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizclinton Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 If they were that smart they wouldn't have launched yet another useless multichannel dropping the quality of their HD channel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape_from_Austec Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 7mateHD looks great for the content type and when AFL is on and it's a Seven production game actually looks better than NRL by Nine. Where Seven made the mistake was not sticking to heir original plan which would if worked out very well, don't underestimate to level of complaints alone in Melbourne and Adelaide that Seven have copped for doing 7HD as MPEG4 because again only 50% of the metro market can watch it due to not having he MPEG4 equipment, if they had done what was originally planned that is metro wide on the owned and operated Seven network make LCN O7 - 07 (insert region name here) HD as in MPEG2 there would be no issue with lack of viewers but of course many would be still complain about PQ of other channels . You can't have it both ways when you have max 23.5Mbits to play with and in any case they have to compete against not only pay TV but streaming services both legal and non legal. The best option was LCN 07 Seven HD MPEG2 1080i HD LCN 72 Seven Two MPEG2 576i SD LCN 73 Seven Mate MPEG2 576i SD LCN 76 Seven Flix MPEG2 576i SD LCN 78 RACING.COM MPEG4 576i SD Thus dropping Seven SD MPEG2 576i SD as they no longer are required to broadcast it as penetration rate now is sitting around 96% total market (again DVB-T based). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanh Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 (edited) Escape from Austec There is 23 Mbit/s available but it is not all for video. There is sound which can be up to almost 0.5 Mbit/s per program, subtitling and other engineering data to be transmitted as well. So when MPEG-4 or MPEG-2 data rates are quoted they are for video only. Sound is a separate stream with its own data rate as does the other signals. The commercial stations persist with AC3 audio on channels 13, 70 and 90 instead of HE AAC audio which is used in other countries using MPEG-4 video compression. The doubling of compression efficiency of MPEG-4 video is not accompanied by a considerable reduction of audio data rates with the more efficient HE AAC audio makes audio significant in the total data rate. Channel 78/68 Racing.com uses AAC audio compression. HE AAC has a 5.1 surround sound mode just like AC3 if the broadcasters actually have program content with 5.1 audio. Oztam is yet to publish the ratings for 7flix after the change to MPEG-2 so we don't know what is the effect of MPEG-2 only receivers. David Knox used one night's ratings, when there was renewed advertising for 7Flix. Who knows, some of those extra viewers may have been MPEG4 capable? After all the ratings for all of the secondary channels are very low anyway. Remember also that Oztam ratings are for the proportion of each free to air channels and pay TV channels. It excludes datacasting channels. It does not separately rate the components of simulcasts such as channels 13/10, 30/3, 80/8. 90/9, 70/73. All estimates of the penetration of MPEG-4 receivers are personal opinions because there is no publically available qualitative research. Where has 7 shown the number of complaints received? In Adelaide and Perth, 7HD is 7mate in HD including the football. It does not simulcast 7's primary channel but simulcasts 7Mate. So the AFL can still be seen in MPEG-2 SD. Remember that all those primetime US programs come in in HD for example "Bones" which are only viewable in SD here. Alanh Edited June 12, 2016 by alanh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davmel Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 The commercial stations persist with AC3 audio on channels 13, 70 and 90 instead of HE AAC audio which is used in other countries using MPEG-4 video compression. The doubling of compression efficiency of MPEG-4 video is not accompanied by a considerable reduction of audio data rates with the more efficient HE AAC audio makes audio significant in the total data rate. Channel 78/68 Racing.com uses AAC audio compression. HE AAC has a 5.1 surround sound mode just like AC3 if the broadcasters actually have program content with 5.1 audio. Any half decent TV broadcaster would stay the hell away from HE-AAC. and instead opt for LC-AAC. The extra techniques available in HE-AAC are only of use to very low bitrates typically lower than 128kbps. There is also the increased risk that some decoders can't correctly decode the full sound mix and can only decode the downmixed mono channel (as demonstrated by the many problems people had with audio on 7flix). HE-AAC should never be used outside of highly bandwidth restricted networks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanh Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/iis/de/doc/ame/wp/FraunhoferIIS_White-Paper_AAC-Broadcast-CableTV.pdf describes the compatibilities between versions. http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/iis/de/doc/ame/FraunhoferIIS_Product-Sheet_HE-AAC.pdf 5 billion devices can't be wrong. However, no one really knows what proportion of viewers who cannot receive MPEG-4 video and the various versions of AAC compression. It shows how the broadcasters stopped Australian Standards CT2 committee from including the latest technologies for all new TVs back in 2010 and it is only this year that they have caught up. Now they have not included the next generation requirements for the transmission of UHD which will require DVB-T2, HEVC and xHE-AAC compression in all receivers. It is the only way to ensure that UHD can replace an HD program stream. Alanh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts