Sony Vpl-Hw40Es 3D Ghosting Issue And High Pitch Noise

[bandyka]

Hello Everyone,

I've recently picked a new 40Es and while I am very happy with it there are two little issues.

One which is rather troublesome is excessive 3D ghosting, it is especially noticeable when viewing text of any kind such as credits at the end of a movie or hud displays on games, literally a letter or number is clearly visible twice, one as it should be and another next to it/behind it transparent.

I have tried all obvious settings no joy. I've called Sony support they have no clue, the guy on the phone said "well I've used 3D on TV but never on projectors" and this was professional support!!

What I've noticed is that it is unbearably bad when the projector was just turned on but after a while say 30-40 min it is better.

I think and I say "think" the issue is with the right eye because when I am trying to calibrate it on the PC using NVidia control panel it goes through the wizard and gets me to check each eye, the left eye shows the correct image but right eye fails. I am using the better RF receiver and glasses not the built in IR. Tried two glasses.

Another issues is that when the image is bright say white PC background or any sort of bright image there is a slight high pitch noise coming form he PJ which is annoying if there is a quiet scene or there is no audio, when the image is black or dark there is no noise.

Thanks in advance I really hope to get some valuable advice here as Sony support is utterly useless.

Cheers

[cwt]

Hello Everyone,

I've recently picked a new 40Es and while I am very happy with it there are two little issues.

One which is rather troublesome is excessive 3D ghosting, it is especially noticeable when viewing text of any kind such as credits at the end of a movie or hud displays on games, literally a letter or number is clearly visible twice, one as it should be and another next to it/behind it transparent.

I have tried all obvious settings no joy. I've called Sony support they have no clue, the guy on the phone said "well I've used 3D on TV but never on projectors" and this was professional support!!

What I've noticed is that it is unbearably bad when the projector was just turned on but after a while say 30-40 min it is better.

Youve unfortunately discovered 3d crosstalk or ghosting bandyka - the sony help line would not want to admit it exists . Some technologies are better than others with this and different brands use different techniques to ameliorate it Things like refresh rates for switching between eyes can help [ like epson uses with its lcd models and in its 3d glasses] - very little x talk . Other techs like dlp are regarded as even better than this .. JVC's have used a slow frame rate in the past and havent got a good reputation for 3d ; they are lcos like sony but sony is a bit better with a higher panel speed iirc ..

Do you have a setting to switch from the left eye to the right in the sony ? That can help as can different presets like cinema or maybe dynamic if you dont want a 6500 rec709 standard setting ; sony owners will help more than I could ..

[MLXXX]

I think and I say "think" the issue is with the right eye because when I am trying to calibrate it on the PC using NVidia control panel it goes through the wizard and gets me to check each eye, the left eye shows the correct image but right eye fails. I am using the better RF receiver and glasses not the built in IR. Tried two glasses.

The above suggests a definite issue with the right eye image. To help pin down under what conditons the problem is arising:-

1. With a 3D signal, what do you see looking through the left lens only? Is it free of cross-talk? Similarly, what do you see if you look through the right lens only?

2. Are you feeding the HDMI signal direct from the pc to the VPL-HW40ES to avoid any possible (albeit unlikely) issue with an interposed AVR?

3. What's the cross-talk like if you feed the pj a 2D signal (say scrolling credits) with the pj set to simulated 3D?

Edited October 13, 2015 by MLXXX

[bandyka]

The above suggests a definite issue with the right eye image. To help pin down under what conditons the problem is arising:-

1. With a 3D signal, what do you see looking through the left lens only? Is it free of cross-talk? Similarly, what do you see if you look through the right lens only?

2. Are you feeding the HDMI signal direct from the pc to the VPL-HW40ES to avoid any possible (albeit unlikely) issue with an interposed AVR?

2. What's the cross-talk like if you feed the pj a 2D signal (say scrolling credits) with the pj set to simulated 3D?

1. Both eyes separately showing cross-talk. Tested this on PS4 with San Andreas.

2. No it goes through an Onkyo TX-NR3030 but I've used a different PJ with this amp and had no issues.

3. Same issue a little worse.

During the Nvidia setup wizard when I look through the left eye I see the correct shape free of cross-talk but when checking the right eye seeing the incorrect shape at about 50% transparency of the image I should not see so left eye sees hexagonal shape correctly right eye sees the hexagonal shape correctly plus triangle underneath at about 50% transparency that should not be visible.

Thanks heaps

Edited October 13, 2015 by bandyka

[MLXXX]

What's the cross-talk like if you feed the pj a 2D signal (say scrolling credits) with the pj set to simulated 3D?

Same issue a little worse.

So the problem must be with the pj itself, or the sync transmitter/glasses.

I am using the better RF receiver and glasses not the built in IR. Tried two glasses.

I see from the instruction manual that the the pj can have a separate sync transmitter connected if the usual IR sync signal is blocked because of where the pj is mounted, but this appears to be an IR sync transmitter. There is no mention of RF in the pj instruction manual that I can see. So, bandyka, are you using an RF sync transmitter? What model number? I presume it is marketed as being compatible with the pj and with the RF glasses?

Or is this indeed the issue: the pj setup is not putting out any RF sync for the glasses?

[bandyka]

Yes correct using a separate transmitter which was purchased along with the PJ and glasses:

The transmitter: https://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/product/9003/sony-ad025-rf-x1-wireless-transmitter/

The glasses: http://www.sony.com.au/product/tdg-bt500a

How can I test if the transmitter is setup correctly? It must be putting signal out if there is 3D?

[MLXXX]

I see the Sony AD025-RF-X1 RF transmitter your'e using is marketed as compatible with your pj, and with your RF glasses, TDGBT500A.

I presume if you disconnect the transmitter the glasses give a different result (presumably they wouldn't sync at all!).

[i see the sync transmitter instructions refer to pairing. Have you tried going through the registration procedure for the TDGBT500A glasses even though the instructions for the glasses say "TV" rather than stand-alone sync transmitter?:

When using Active 3D Glasses for
the first time, hold the glasses
within a 50 cm range of the TV
and turn on the TV and hold the
(Power) button/indicator for
2 seconds. The Active 3D Glasses
turn on and registration starts
(The (Power) button/indicator
blinks green and yellow). When
registration is finished, a message
appears in the bottom right of
the screen for 5 seconds, and the
indicator will light up green for
3 seconds. This process is only
required one time.
If registration fails, the Active 3D
Glasses will turn off automatically.
In this case, repeat the above.]

Of course the fact your projector is unusually noisy throws some suspicion on it. Perhaps it is the element that is faulty. I'm afraid I don't have any other suggestions at this point!

Edited October 13, 2015 by MLXXX

[bandyka]

yes just re-done the registration process and made no difference.

When the lamp is cold the cross-talk is unbearable does that mean that something in the projector is not properly aligned?

[MLXXX]

When the lamp is cold the cross-talk is unbearable does that mean that something in the projector is not properly aligned?

I think you have enough evidence to request a relacement pj. It shouldn't be all that noisy (the reviews I've read indicate it's quiet), though sitting very close to a projector is generally not recommended, and if you are very close, the noise may possibly be normal.

Importantly, there shouldn't be any dramatic change in 3D performance from cold to warm (after 30 to 40 minutes, as you mention above). The reviews I've read indicate that this model has quite low ghosting. So, it is not performing to the standard one could reasonably expect.

Has anyone else on the forum had experience with this model in 3D mode?

Edited October 13, 2015 by MLXXX

[bandyka]

Thanks. The noise is a high pitch power supply whine typically found in computers and I've read it on forums some have experienced it but hardly anyone reported it so guessing its not normal, I am happy with the fan noise no issues there.

As for 3D no one has any issues as such I posted this on the UK forum as well no one experienced this however found a similar issue on a 55ES reported.

[cwt]

Stereoscopic 3D tricks your brain into thinking it's seeing multidimensional scenes by offsetting two identical images; crosstalk occurs when those two images don't line up right, which can happen at different levels of depth intensity depending on the game or movie you're enjoying

As a data point does the ghosting decrease if you go for minimum depth of field ? This quote from Ron Jones applies to panels but heating does affect panel performance [ or at the least glasses performance ]

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/194-3d-tech-talk/1294917-heating-up-lcd-shutter-glasses-reduces-crosstalk.html#post19581137

What happens when you just use ir if you have some cheap compatible glasses ? rule out the rf system at least ..

[bandyka]

yes the cross talk decreases proportionally to the amount of dept of filed applied. I don't have any IR glasses but I'll try to source some tomorrow was just thinking the same.

[MLXXX]

Stereoscopic 3D tricks your brain into thinking it's seeing multidimensional scenes by offsetting two identical images; crosstalk occurs when those two images don't line up right, which can happen at different levels of depth intensity depending on the game or movie you're enjoying.

The context of that quote was primarily gaming. Here is a fuller version of the quote:

Stereoscopic 3D tricks your brain into thinking it's seeing multidimensional scenes by offsetting two identical images; crosstalk occurs when those two images don't line up right, which can happen at different levels of depth intensity depending on the game or movie you're enjoying. And crosstalk isn't the only problem you can eliminate by adjusting the depth intensity: During our impromptu 3D depth testing while playing games on a Panasonic GT25 plasma 3D HDTV, fine details such as chain-link fences in Gears of War 3 became jagged when we maxed out the depth setting, and text in Assassin's Creed Revelations became blurry and pixelated.

During our testing, we found that setting the depth intensity of most 3D games between 0 and 5 percent kept crosstalk at a minimum without sacrificing much of the depth effect. That may not be the best setting for you, depending on the kind of 3D display you own and your own personal comfort zone, so make sure to fiddle around with the 3D settings in your games and movies to find the perfect fit.

A final note: Most 3D HDTVs have a specific set of menu options for 3D adjustment that range beyond simple depth intensity sliders; don't be afraid to poke around in there. For example, during testing we discovered a few settings on our Panasonic GT25 plasma that dramatically improved every 3D game we played, something we hadn't encountered before despite having owned the 3D HDTV for nearly a year.

I took the above from a PCWorld article How to Get the Most From Your 3D HDTV.

It certainly is true that if there is very high contrast in the source Left and Right images be they from a stereoscopic 3D game or a stereoscopic 3D movie then they will be challenging to reproduce without noticeable ghosting. DLP projectors are known for their ability to provide zero or negligible visible ghosting/cross-talk performance even with high contrast. This is because there is no seepage of Left image content into Right image content at the projector itself, and the active glasses can switch cleanly and fast enough.

An SXRD projector does not have the same lack of contamination between Left and Right content as a DLP projector because the miniature SXRD panels have a significant switching time. There is a slight ghost of the Left content still present when it becomes time to display the Right content.

Blu-ray 3D authoring software can reduce the contrast between some of the Left and Right content making the leakage between Left and Right content on a plasma panel display, an LCD panel display, or an SXRD projector, less noticeable. And it would not be surprising if some 3D display devices include such processing capability.

The statement in the quote "crosstalk occurs when those two images don't line up right" could apply with an over-aggressive 3D game setting, or an over-aggressive 3D simulation setting for a 2D movie source, but the most basic cause of visible 3D cross-talk/ghosting is simply high contrast Left and Right images that the display device and glasses cannot adequately quarantine from each other. Early LCD 3D displays were known for their relatively poor 3D cross-talk performance. Typically, such displays could not switch state cleanly enough from the Left image to the Right image to avoid noticeable cross-talk/ghosting. (This cause of cross-talk is different to the notion “two images don't line up right”.)

This quote from Ron Jones applies to panels but heating does affect panel performance [ or at the least glasses performance ]

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/194-3d-tech-talk/1294917-heating-up-lcd-shutter-glasses-reduces-crosstalk.html#post19581137

The relevant post on AVS Forum (post #7 dated 3 Dec 2010) reads:

Slow response by either or both liquid crystal shutter glasses and displays when cold could certainly result in crosstalk. For the glasses if the open LC shutter takes too long to become opaque then it will pass some of the next (i.e., wrong) squentially displayed image rather than fully blocking it. For displays if the reponse time is too slow because of a cold display there will be a longer period when the previous image is still slowing fading away while the new image is slowing appearing.

I suspect the above effect would be unlikely to affect active glasses all that noticeably (particularly today's active glasses which switch pretty rapidly anyway) but might noticeably affect SXRD projector performance, if the glasses used in conjunction with them were not properly timed to stay shuttered for long enough to hide the unfinished decay of Left and Right content while the subpanels were cold. I note that UHP bulbs generate a lot of heat and SXRD subpanel characteristics would certainly change during the warm up period. But the engineering ought to be such that the active glasses hide any slow transitions of the SXRD subpanels from Left content to right content.

What happens when you just use ir if you have some cheap compatible glasses ? rule out the rf system at least ..

I don't have any IR glasses but I'll try to source some tomorrow was just thinking the same.

If IR glasses work with negligible ghosting then the issue may indeed be that the the RF glasses are staying clear for too long and not sufficiently hiding the transition between Left and Right content. However, that would beg the question whether the projector is operating within its designed parameters or is out of adjustment - not blanking for long enough. Given that both the Sony RF sync transmitter and the RF glasses are marketed as compatible with the Sony projector, it would appear Sony have some explaining to do. The pj is at fault or the combination of the Sony sync transmitter and the glasses is at fault!

Also we are not talking about a slightly compromised performance for a short warm up period but a dramatically compromised performance in the initial stages. And, apparently, even after 30 or 40 minutes the performance though better is still noticeably poor.

On the other hand, if IR glasses turn out to perform well, a quick way out out of the predicament could be to return the RF transmitter and RF glasses for refund and use IR glasses!

As a technical matter related to possible servicing action by Sony, I wonder whether the projector has an adjustment for the duration of blanking between Left and Right. I recall some years ago seeing a noticeable blanking of my rear-pro SXRD screen between frames when displaying 2D content, on the screen of an oscilloscope displaying the output of a light detector near the screen. The screen blanking was too short to be visible to the naked eye, but was plain to see on the oscilloscope.

Another potential servicing adjustment would be to the timing of the sync pulses the pj sends to the RF sync emitter.

Edited October 13, 2015 by MLXXX

[cwt]

An SXRD projector does not have the same lack of contamination between Left and Right content as a DLP projector because the miniature SXRD panels have a significant switching time. There is a slight ghost of the Left content still present when it becomes time to display the Right content.

If IR glasses work with negligible ghosting then the issue may indeed be that the the RF glasses are staying clear for too long and not sufficiently hiding the transition between Left and Right content. However, that would beg the question whether the projector is operating within its designed parameters or is out of adjustment - not blanking for long enough. Given that both the Sony RF sync transmitter and the RF glasses are marketed as compatible with the Sony projector, it would appear Sony have some explaining to do. The pj is at fault or the combination of the Sony sync transmitter and the glasses is at fault!

Also we are not talking about a slightly compromised performance for a short warm up period but a dramatically compromised performance in the initial stages. And, apparently, even after 30 or 40 minutes the performance though better is still noticeably poor.

On the other hand, if IR glasses turn out to perform well a quick way out out of the predicament could be to return the RF transmitter and RF glasses for refund and use IR glasses!

I suspect the above effect would be unlikely to affect active glasses all that noticeably (particularly today's active glasses which switch pretty rapidly anyway)

Well found on the article ; agreed temperature isnt the overriding concern here .

I suspect the above effect would be unlikely to affect active glasses all that noticeably (particularly today's active glasses which switch pretty rapidly anyway)

One of the pluses that epson markets is their glasses flash on/off quicker than the competition which helps with letting more light through the glasses . This would help with contrast at a guess and maybe persistence of vision with things 'blurring' together but only speculating here

Its all relative ; even with dlp ; using dlp link causes a loss in contrast due to the sync flash whereas rf doesnt have that problem . I hope bandyka gets the rf sorted out as its a lot more compatible with hdmi and doesnt switch other ir system components on/off Could be a sync problem as you say ; not specific but found this -

For what its worth, some six months ago I tried some Sainsonic DLP glasses with my 120hz 3-D projector. The given Sainsonic type I used were the first and only DLP Link glasses to loose sync quickly, and on a couple of occasions when they regained sync after turning away, the L/R orientation would flip

Edited October 13, 2015 by cwt

[bandyka]

wow good reading thanks. I am seeing where I can pick a pair of IR up now and will report back as soon as I've tested. I wish I could show you an image of how bad the ghosting is.

[MLXXX]

I wish I could show you an image of how bad the ghosting is.

If you used a camera (mobile phone?) with the lens positioned behind eiher the left or right "lens" of the glasses, with a 3D blu-ray paused on a demanding scene, you might be able to capture it. (It could help if the scene (and room lighting) is not too bright, forcing automatic exposure to be longer, and capturing the whole of the "flash" of the Left [or as the case may be, Right] picture content on the screen and not just a middle parf of the image display time.) You could then evaluate whether the camera captured image was similar to what you saw looking through one lens of the glasses.

[bandyka]

Going to pick the IR glasses now will report back soon.

[bandyka]

Also just to be sure I hooked up the PS4 directly with a short cable,same results. Getting the glasses now.

[MLXXX]

Will be very interested in how IR glasses perform!

There are some 3D test videos available for an objective test of degree of ghosting, such as the one linked to at post #1 of How much crosstalk (ghosting) has your 3D TV? Test it!.

[bandyka]

OK, so got the IR glasses but unfortunately no improvement at all so its not the glasses. So they are now available for sale genuine Sony paid $155.00 an hour ago.

Here is my test results:

1top-5bottom right eye closed

9top-1bottom left eye closed

So by my interpretation there is some noticeable inconsistency here?

[MLXXX]

Pity you can't simply return the IR glasses to the retailer. (Perhaps you can?)

It's not surprising to me you're getting inconsistent results as between Left and Right, given that you saw different degrees of ghosting earlier on when you were looking through just the left or just the right lens.

A moment ago I did a quick test with my 4K 65" passive glasses TV (Sony 2013 model) simply playing the test video file on my pc desktop and manually selecting side by side 3D with the remote control. [if I were doing the test carefully, and in a way that could be readily reproduced, I'd load the file onto a USB stick and get my TV to read it.] With my right eye closed, the bottom of the screen initially looked as if it were black (no ghosting at all) but if I looked closely I could faintly see 65 and above. This is a daytime result. You may note this is a far better result than was being obtained by people at home back in 2010 with their 3D displays!

Performance was not as good looking only out of my right eye. I could see numbers at the top from about 30 upwards. (Also, they had a blue colouration.)

Your results of 5 and 9 are indeed poor by today's standards. 5 is very poor.

Brief explanation for readers who haven't seen the side by side test video [referenced in post #19 above]:

The two sets of numbers in the video (one set intended to be visible only to the left eye and the other set intended to be visible only to the right eye) have intensities that range smoothly from very faint (the number 1) to very bright (the number 80). With an ideal setup, even the brightest number intended for one eye should not be visible using the other eye. If a relatively dull number such as 5 can be seen by the eye it was not intended for, 3D viewing will be significantly compromised. ]

Edited October 14, 2015 by MLXXX

[bandyka]

Thanks for looking into it. So I am guessing it just might be a faulty unit??

[MLXXX]

Yes the 3D performance is so poor the pj would have to be considered faulty. I believe you would be entitled to return this unit as defective goods. A replacement unit could be expected to perform much better.

I note that web reviews have indicated this model pj has quite good 3D performance. This unit's performance is well below the standard you could have reasonably expected as a consumer, based on reviews, and based on normal levels of performance to be expected in 2014 or 2015 for home projectors. In fact, based on the information you have supplied, this unit is not fit for the purpose of use as a 3D projector.

[bandyka]

Thank you. I shall return it then. Will post results when I have the new unit installed. Many thanks for the great assistance.

[bandyka]

OK so I seem to have been able to fix the problem. As weird as it is I have done a factory reset and re calibrated the PJ using the Disney WOOW Blu Ray disc and is now perfectly good looking. It must have been a mangled set of settings somewhere. The high pitch noise is also much less noticeable now. Thanks for all the input appreciate it after all it does not look like a faulty PJ it must have came out of the factory with some incorrect calibration.