betty boop Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Seen a few comments from cedia attendees that the improved jvc e-shift is very hard to pick from the sony 4k projectors when fed a 4k signal Coupled with the hdmi 18gbps board vs the last gen 10.2gbps sony board means better future proofing [ depending on how long you keep your projector natch] The sonys are lacking with certain 60p 4k colour spaces - noticed that European 4k sat tv may be problematic - not that that matters out here the complete 5000/7000/9000 jvc's have HDR capabilities [ thanks to hdmi 2.0a] in concert with there impressive lumen output which matters a lot with HDR as its bitmapped to the projectors capabilities .. If you want a big difference though flat panels with HDR are the go . Jvc has also activated the lcos panels to 12bit from the old 10 bit bottleneck according to Kris Deering in the 7000/9000 ; and Manni mentioned above; sweet . If you want HDR [ a batcave will help a lot ] this doesn't start with sony until the $$ 600es replacement . The jvc's have 4k cfi for sports too [ if you watch sports] ; no go on the sony's. Should mention another thing I like about the new projectors is sony's 6000hr lamp life and jvc's 4500 similar estimate .. cwt, good to hear comments from cedia re jvc e-shift 4K vs sonys full deal. id take the jvc's contrast and blacks over the sonys and good find re the lamp hours too. that in itself is a huge bonus for these new projectors Don't fancy paying > $10000 to sony for HDR bandyka . Not when you can pay less than 1/2 possibly for a 5000 and get all those lumens You never know maybe the jvc will have a low lag menu setting that will switch off some processing The price difference would pay for a Marantz 8802 hdmi2.0a ; not bad .. Sony know they can charge whatever the market will bear because of the 4k moniker imho . not sure be willing to fork out such mega bucks either on the kind of cash sony is extracting ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandyka Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 yes they are a bit overpriced but since there is no real competition in the 4K market... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 good to hear comments from cedia re jvc e-shift 4K vs sonys full deal. id take the jvc's contrast and blacks over the sonys and good find re the lamp hours too. that in itself is a huge bonus for these new projectors not sure be willing to fork out such mega bucks either on the kind of cash sony is extracting ! The jvc's contrast will certainly help with HDR and 10 bit colour gamut Al . Yes they phrased it as price gouging @ avs i think ile wait a bit to see the $60000 laser 4k trickle down http://www.projectorreviews.com/home-theater-and-projectors-the-technical-side/cedia-expo-2015-day-1/ bit hard to swallow when laser projectors are coming and texas instruments have demoed there new 4k dlp chip for mid priced projectors as well .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMDave Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 Don't fancy paying > $10000 to sony for HDR bandyka . Not when you can pay less than 1/2 possibly for a 5000 and get all those lumens You never know maybe the jvc will have a low lag menu setting that will switch off some processing The price difference would pay for a Marantz 8802 hdmi2.0a ; not bad .. Sony know they can charge whatever the market will bear because of the 4k moniker imho . In the end, the JVC is a home cinema projector and lag is irrelevant for that use. A cheap DLP is a better option for games, less motion blur and no processing to slow things down. Everyone is entitled to spend their money however they choose, but never having been a gamer, I just can't fathom the amount of discussion about lag on machine designed principally for showing HD movies. That someone would actually spend $10-15k to play video games astounds me. Horses for courses I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Everyone is entitled to spend their money however they choose, but never having been a gamer, I just can't fathom the amount of discussion about lag on machine designed principally for showing HD movies. That someone would actually spend $10-15k to play video games astounds me. Horses for courses I suppose. yes we make our own value judgement. I dont get the gaming issues either, especially since with the x35 lag is quite low, infant I never thought an issue, and used on first person shooter, racing and what not on a few platforms. but I guess some are finicky about all sorts of things. we get to choose what we want to spend our money on and what not. but no I wouldn't be too bothered wiht gaming as a priority for any pj I buy in the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 The jvc's contrast will certainly help with HDR and 10 bit colour gamut Al . Yes they phrased it as price gouging @ avs i think ile wait a bit to see the $60000 laser 4k trickle down http://www.projectorreviews.com/home-theater-and-projectors-the-technical-side/cedia-expo-2015-day-1/ bit hard to swallow when laser projectors are coming and texas instruments have demoed there new 4k dlp chip for mid priced projectors as well .. I'm not too bothered with 4K to be honest, its not like I have my setup to fully resolve what is better than imax in resolution. but it will be a factor no less. imagine resale if buying a non true 4k from jvc and the next year they do eventually bring out a true 4K unit. prices would plummet ! be a lot of people holding back. myself am more keen to see the benefit of HDR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandyka Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Everyone is entitled to spend their money however they choose, but never having been a gamer, I just can't fathom the amount of discussion about lag on machine designed principally for showing HD movies. That someone would actually spend $10-15k to play video games astounds me. Horses for courses I suppose. I will spend that money on a good all rounder to do everything well not just gaming but since gaming is one of the main exercises we do (especially flight simulator) I just cannot have a PJ that lags that bad. Besides many home theatre PJ are now designed with gamers in mind. JVC would win over many of Sony's customers if they have included a gaming mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandyka Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I'm not too bothered with 4K to be honest, its not like I have my setup to fully resolve what is better than imax in resolution. but it will be a factor no less. imagine resale if buying a non true 4k from jvc and the next year they do eventually bring out a true 4K unit. prices would plummet ! be a lot of people holding back. myself am more keen to see the benefit of HDR I feel HDR will be a little bit of a disappointment on projectors as they are not capable of producing the full brightness required for HDR to work properly. TV's are well suited for it but projectors just lack the overall brightness. This is from a discussion on another forum and I see the point there: To do proper HDR you need a huge range like this PJ can project (0 to 5000 lumens range) or similar. If a "normal" bulb projector can currently do 5 to 1200 lumens and the JVCs can do say 1 to 1200 lumens equivalent (or apparent) brightness, that doesn't matter, you are not getting the major point of HDR which is the large specular range at the high end - no glowing fire, searing sunlight, massively reflective metal surfaces - the really bright specular highlights in 3-10,000 range that really brightens display up from old dull REC709. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) I feel HDR will be a little bit of a disappointment on projectors as they are not capable of producing the full brightness required for HDR to work properly. TV's are well suited for it but projectors just lack the overall brightness. Agree bandyka it wont be as good as on an oled say ; but those with a good BTB/WTW contrast range and good lumens] like the jvc's will have better bitmapped results than others . The trend is more lumens so it can only get better imo ; a lot of factors including how they master the colours in the 4k bd possibly.. btw this is how much I care about true 4k resolution from Kris Deering ; [ costs money to remaster 2k ; it has to be worth it for Hollywood .. Another note on the side, just keep in mind that I would wager that over 80% of the new release content you'll see in 4K UHD Blu-ray won't even be true 4K but 2K upscaled and sold as 4K. So while at least JVC talks about its eShift and gets bad buzz for not being true 4K, the studios are going to have ZERO issue selling you something advertised as 4K that simply isn't. Edited October 20, 2015 by cwt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I dont get the brightness thing, I have my iris cranked down, so 12-16 fl as per typical cinema standards, http://www.harkness-screens.com/documents/The_importance_of_screen_selection_in_achieving_correct_light_levels.pdf and is plenty blinding in scenes...how much more blinding do they want it ? the thing with dynamic range is its a range...ie if going deeper into blacks you need less excursion into the brightness I would have thought. something doesnt add up ! cranking flt panels to the max might be one way to achieve high dynamic range but I wouldn't have thought thats the answer ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandyka Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Agree bandyka it wont be as good as on an oled say ; but those with a good BTB/WTW contrast range and good lumens] like the jvc's will have better bitmapped results than others . The trend is more lumens so it can only get better imo ; a lot of factors including how they master the colours in the 4k bd possibly.. btw this is how much I care about true 4k resolution from Kris Deering ; [ costs money to remaster 2k ; it has to be worth it for Hollywood .. Yes agree on both accounts, PJ with better on/off contrast will be better for HDR, and yes True 4K won't be happening mainstream for quite a while which is why I am really leaning towards the LS10000. Going demo one side by side (Sony 4K on the other side) this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandyka Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I dont get the brightness thing, I have my iris cranked down, so 12-16 fl as per typical cinema standards, http://www.harkness-screens.com/documents/The_importance_of_screen_selection_in_achieving_correct_light_levels.pdf and is plenty blinding in scenes...how much more blinding do they want it ? the thing with dynamic range is its a range...ie if going deeper into blacks you need less excursion into the brightness I would have thought. something doesnt add up ! cranking flt panels to the max might be one way to achieve high dynamic range but I wouldn't have thought thats the answer ! to get a very bright spot light such as a car coming towards you so it pops out like the real thing you need huge brightness and contrast which the PJ lacks. The new $65000.00 Sony is the sort that has the capability. Well hope JVC comes out with new tricks but form what I am hearing the peeps who seen the new Sony 520ES are not very impressed due to these limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandyka Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Agree bandyka it wont be as good as on an oled say ; but those with a good BTB/WTW contrast range and good lumens] like the jvc's will have better bitmapped results than others . The trend is more lumens so it can only get better imo ; a lot of factors including how they master the colours in the 4k bd possibly.. btw this is how much I care about true 4k resolution from Kris Deering ; [ costs money to remaster 2k ; it has to be worth it for Hollywood .. Forgot to say I'd be primarily using the 4K capability for gaming and Gopro footage which are both true 4K. Which the Sony would be better suited for. Damn I can't make up my mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 to get a very bright spot light such as a car coming towards you so it pops out like the real thing you need huge brightness and contrast which the PJ lacks. The new $65000.00 Sony is the sort that has the capability. Well hope JVC comes out with new tricks but form what I am hearing the peeps who seen the new Sony 520ES are not very impressed due to these limitations. yeah but our brightness standards are what they are - if calibrated still to 14fl whats the point of all those lumens ? apart from still being able to achieve still 14Fl just on a bigger screen/longer throw , and I havent seen anything about anyone changing the standards. as far as contrast goes we know the jvcs still rule .... so something is amiss here ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandyka Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 yeah exactly which is why a lot of us are very skeptical of HDR. If you think about it just won't work properly you might see some effects but nowhere near as a TV. I really hope the lot of us will be proven wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 yeah exactly which is why a lot of us are very skeptical of HDR. If you think about it just won't work properly you might see some effects but nowhere near as a TV. I really hope the lot of us will be proven wrong. our current projectors are capable of some serious brightness even ones going back 5 years ! . the epson I had as a headsup..could achieve something like 75fl on full lamp output which is just plain nuts ! not measured the jvc on full open iris and highest power setting and dont see the point. Watching a movie like tracks where in the middle of sun blinding dessert can tell you there is so much light pumping off the screen you feel you are in the sun blinding dessert. I seriously dont see the need for more output ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandyka Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) well I hope you are right but initial reports suggest otherwise unfortunately. I am not qualified to provide a proper technical explanation but that is what I am hearing from live demos, compared to TV HDR the PJ is not that impressive they say. These are from some lucky peeps in the UK whom already have access to the new Sony 520ES. Guess we need to wait for the new JVC range to pass judgment. Edited October 20, 2015 by bandyka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 well I hope you are right but initial reports suggest otherwise unfortunately. I am not qualified to provide a proper technical explanation but that is what I am hearing from live demos, compared to TV HDR the PJ is not that impressive they say. These are from some lucky peeps in the UK whom already have access to the new Sony 520ES. Guess we need to wait for the new JVC range to pass judgment. something doesn't add up…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandyka Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) something doesn't add up…. Its early days Al ; another factor is whether the HDR versions in each ce's projectors are proprietary ; whether they will play nice with dolby vision for example . Theres allready been different versions in the flat panel arena with samsung using their proprietary logic Dolby vision is the one with all the kudos so far so if they dont get a solid standard for the disc mastering it will not be conducive to marketing 4k bd properly ; hope the bda agree for once Forgot to say I'd be primarily using the 4K capability for gaming and Gopro footage which are both true 4K. Which the Sony would be better suited for. Damn I can't make up my mind... As long as that 4k game isnt for example 4:4:4 60p you may be ok .. The ls10000 is hdcp2.2 and hdmi2.0 with dci p3 colour gamut [ no HDR pesumably because its not a light cannon ]; its getting more complicated making sure you even get a picture bandyka ; your thoughts on these projectors will be interesting Edited October 20, 2015 by cwt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandyka Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) Yes hard decision indeed there are just too many variables and neither are perfect options. Will get some photos and share my thoughts quite possibly on Thursday. I wish it was an easier decision as I really don't want to pay the premium for the Sony but if I go with the Epson the thought will possibly always be in the back of my mind that I should have... well see how they compare. Edited October 20, 2015 by bandyka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandyka Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 OK so here is the final verdict:Done the demo and the clear winner is the Sony.Once I've seen them both head to head I noticed the difference immediately. While running native 1080p they are nearly identical and I would say the LS has the better blacks, however once we enter the realms of 4K things change dramatically (which is the whole point of the exercise). The Epson is blurry on 4K-1 which can be eliminated by increasing the effect up to 4K-5 but that introduces serious artifacts which sort of defeats the purpose of a clear 4K picture. Meanwhile the Sony held up consistently delivering a more natural and much sharper looking image with brilliant color acruacy. The LS has the edge when it comes to black performance but the Sony just pulled ahead in every other aspect, with the lights on the Sony maintained the clarity of the image while the Epson struggled. All in all the LS is not a true 4K but a brilliant 1080p PJ as opposed to the Sony which is brilliant in both worlds. I made up my mind it will be the Sony and if I can stretch the budget will go for the 500 which will match the Epson's black levels, Done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Curious bandyka ;was the 4k source netflix ? Shame 4k bluray is still coming . Did you try the epson with/without its e-shift on ? Some at avs have said the same about using more than 4k-1 ; the new jvc's have better e-shift Glad it was that clear cut ; hope you get a good deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 presume some JVC compared with ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandyka Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 4K source was my gopro and Sony 4K server. Yes as mentioned when watching 1080p they were nearly identical when turned on 4K enhancement the game has changed completely to favor of the Sony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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