Help Needed To Play Sacds

[iceblinkfroufrou]

ages ago i bought a harman kardon AVR-330 receiver from someone on the forum. i can't recall who it was now as it was a very long time ago, well over a year, maybe even two.

anyway i got the receiver specifically to be able to play SACDs. a couple of days ago was the first time that i actually plugged it all in and turned it on. so how did it all go?

i've hooked up a pioneer BDP-140 blu-ray player to it. the receiver doesn't have a HDMI connection so i've tried optical and also the red and white cable, can't remember what thats called.

i can only get sound when i select 'normal' stereo on the blu-ray player. if i select SACD 2-channel or

SACD-multi channel there is only silence, and i don't understand why?

i can't find anything in the receiver's manual on how to go about playing these discs, unless i've missed it.

the cable is from the receiver's cd[red &white] 'in,' to the blu-ray's audio 'out.'

when i tried the optical it was the receiver's optical 'in' to the blu ray's optical 'out.'

i'm obviously doing something very wrong here which isn't surprising, i hate this type of thing. i spent almost 2 hours f******g around with the thing today, getting nowhere!

when i have used my yamaha receiver when playing a SACD in the past it just automatically does it. i don't have to press any buttons or say 'pretty please' or even cross my fingers!

however the yamaha is in the lounge with the telly, & the HK is in the music room to play LOUD music to try and get me interested in music once again.

it would be great if someone could help, thanks.

[iceblinkfroufrou]

so are you saying it can be done? i can hear multi-channel SACDs with this set-up, its just a matter of setting the pioneer up correctly?

in the pioneer set-up there is 'audio output' - bitstream - PCM - reencode.

its currently on PCM.

it doesn't really have too many different settings to do with output.

[jutta]

AS Chops said, sounds right but never used those items myself.

PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) just means it sends the signal without decoding it to your AVR

Looking at your 330 manual - https://www.hci-services.com/tech_doc/documents/harman%20kardon/Home/Electronics/AVR/AVR%20330/Owner's%20Manual/AVR330_Eng.pdf

I'm not sure it can decode the SACD PCM signal (page 31/32)

Can you select/set the Pio to decode and then send Multi-Channel to the HK 330????

May be your only solution with those components.

I'm unsure when it comes to SACD

Not sure if the HK can decode the PCM signal, perhaps the player does need to decode first. Does the Pio have this option on screen?

This from Pio page - the BDP-140 also doubles as a refined audio player, including support forSuper Audio CD whereby the output over HDMI can either be the DSD 1-bit signal, or hi-res PCM 88.2 kHz / 24 bit or 176.4 kHz / 24 bit.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Jutta

[iceblinkfroufrou]

thanks for all the effort in helping me everyone.

i had a look thru' the manual you put up and the first time i noticed SACD was here. it's talking about 6/8 speaker set-up.

i only have the two front, two surround, and the sub. however that didn't stop me trying to connect cables in this area, even though i new it wouldn't work!

"There are two input choices available for use
with sources such as a DVD-Audio or SACD play-
er that are connected to the 8-Channel Direct
Inputs 9. Select the appropriate input accord-
ing to the way your system and source equip-
ment is configured:
• The 6 C H DIRECT input should be used
when the SBR and SBL inputs are NOT in use and
the input source device has its own internal bass
management system. This input passes the input
from the source directly through to the volume
control without any analog to digital conversion
and it mutes the unused input jacks to prevent
unwanted noise from interfering with system per-
formance.
• The 8 C H DIRECT INPUT should be
used when an input is connected to all eight
8-Channel Direct Inputs 9 and when the
input source device has its own internal bass
management system. This input passes the input

from the source directly through to the volume
control without any analog to digital conversion
and it mutes the unused input jacks to prevent
unwanted noise from interfering with system
performance.
Note that when the 6-Channel or 8-Channel
Direct Input is in use, you may not select a sur-
round mode, as the external decoder determines
the processing in use. In addition, there is no
signal at the record outputs or bass management
when the 6-Channel or 8-Channel Direct Input is
in use and the tone or balance controls will not
function."

maybe i should just go and buy another used receiver that accepts SACDs and get rid of the HK? trouble is they're not that easy to find unless you have a lot of money. thats my experience anyway.

maybe a different one would be more straight forward, like the yamaha i have in the lounge? in the end though, i only have four SACDs, so is it actually worth it? i was going to get more of course, but it's not like i have to.

anyway there is no big hurry. i'll just keep my eye on the for sale sites and another suitable receiver will turn up at some stage.

i'm used to listening in stereo!

[CAVX]

i've hooked up a pioneer BDP-140 blu-ray player to it. the receiver doesn't have a HDMI connection so i've tried optical and also the red and white cable, can't remember what thats called.

i can only get sound when i select 'normal' stereo on the blu-ray player. if i select SACD 2-channel or

SACD-multi channel there is only silence, and i don't understand why?

How old is this AVR?

To play SACD in Multi Channel -

1. Your player needs to be able to play SACD and not all BD players can

2. You need to be able to connect your player to deliver the MC content - HDMI for digital and 6 x RCA for Analogue. Given your AVR does not have HDMI, then you need the 6 RCAs for analogue. Not all BD players have these either.

If you only have SPDIF or stereo analogue (red and white RCA), then chances are, you won't hear the SACD at all much less in MC. DSD can be converted to PCM, but at best, a TOSLINK would only deliver 2 channels and be limited to 96K tops.

[jutta]

How old is this AVR?

To play SACD in Multi Channel -

1. Your player needs to be able to play SACD and not all BD players can

2. You need to be able to connect your player to deliver the MC content - HDMI for digital and 6 x RCA for Analogue. Given your AVR does not have HDMI, then you need the 6 RCAs for analogue. Not all BD players have these either.

If you only have SPDIF or stereo analogue (red and white RCA), then chances are, you won't hear the SACD at all much less in MC. DSD can be converted to PCM, but at best, a TOSLINK would only deliver 2 channels and be limited to 96K tops.

The Pio plays SACD but it only has L/R RCA outs

[howze]

Pm sent mate

[Craigandkim]

For those suggesting optical for multichannel output- yes you can output multichannel compressed audio codecs such as DTS, DD but not multichannel LPCM. S/PDIF is only capable of outputting 2 channel uncompressed audio (as Mark has already mentioned)

Regarding no audio:

Looking at the manual- pg 40 could be a clue- has the op turned off the digital output?

Digital Output* Off- Select this to output audio signals other than digital audio signals.

PS:If this is the case I would suggest this player can only support the output of two channel SACD from the analogue output if the digital output is turned off.

In short you cannot output multichannel SACD unless using the HDMI which currently you cannot do

Edited October 8, 2014 by craigandkim

[iceblinkfroufrou]

it is set to PCM.

[iceblinkfroufrou]

yeah thats what i'm thinking too.

Edited October 8, 2014 by raymondluxuryyacht

[jutta]

There's nothing wrong with the Pio. It's built by Pioneer again which is a good thing after they were basically Sharp units for a couple models

[Craigandkim]

it is set to PCM.

Have you tried setting the digital output to "off" and using the two analogue leads (L & R)? Then playing the two channel SACD layer?

Edited October 9, 2014 by craigandkim

[CAVX]

Shouldn't have to turn off the digital out, but may have to turn off the bitstream mode.

[Craigandkim]

Mark- that is what the manual says- page 40 (see post 13)

Edited October 9, 2014 by craigandkim

[iceblinkfroufrou]

I'VE DONE IT!

i've just been looking thru' the pioneer's setup menu once again. what i did was turn the digital output 'off', then had a listen to some music thru' it.

prior to that it was on bitstream. i'm not sure what that is i'm afraid, but i thought i should change it to PCM as PCM was chosen in an earlier setting. but then i selected off instead.

i connected the pioneer to the receiver via optical cable. i put on a genesis SACD, and then a pink floyd SACD[multi channel] and i started hearing music from all four speakers!

i couldn't believe it! i now won't have to go looking for another receiver.

however, as i was looking thru the album information about the various mixes available it suddenly occured to me that maybe i'm not really hearing a 5.1 mix?

here is why.

i have no tv in this room. in the past when i listened to my SACDs it was in the lounge with the big tv. so therefore i could pick from the screen which mix to hear.

now i can't of course! i'd forgotten all about this.

i've very few of these discs and its not a natural thing for me to refer to a screen in order to pick what music i want to hear. i've only done this 3 times or so in the past, and that was ages ago.

so the music i was just hearing may of just been normal 2 channel mix but came out of 4 speakers as the receiver was set to surround sound?

i don't know!

listening to music these days seems so complicated to me, there are so many menus, so many boxes to tick. i think i was quite happy when an amp had a bass, treble and balance control. i just get frustrated i suppose as i find it impossible to understand the meanings of all the terms i see, and what they do to the receiver or player. it's not simple anymore.

maybe i should just get a really good stereo amp, they still make them don't they?

anyway i have surround sound now so thats good, and i'm not going to have to spend time and money looking for another receiver, i can spend the money on something useful such as a bed!

[cwt]

I'VE DONE IT!

i've just been looking thru' the pioneer's setup menu once again. what i did was turn the digital output 'off', then had a listen to some music thru' it.

prior to that it was on bitstream. i'm not sure what that is i'm afraid, but i thought i should change it to PCM as PCM was chosen in an earlier setting. but then i selected off instead.

Your guess is correct raymond ;that can only be 2ch pcm going through a dsp mode . Try the hk's logic 7 mode a long time favourite If you want to hear true sacd decoded multichannel dsd Ide pm htnut below and get his oppo and feed its multichannel analog outs into the hk's 7.1 ins .. True multichannel beats any matrix dsp .

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php/topic/157739-fs-oppo-bdp-80-bluray-player-with-region-free-mod/#entry1983853

[iceblinkfroufrou]

thats the one i've been listening to, logic 7, sounds good too.

when you say 7.1, i only have the four speakers and the sub, is that setting for if you have a couple of back speakers too?

what about the OPPO DV-981HD DVD player, would that be of any use for me? i can get hold of one for $90.

[iceblinkfroufrou]

as i've mentioned i don't have a tv in the music room, which makes it impossible to pick particular mixes from a cd. i do have a spare pc monitor, could that be used or not?

[iceblinkfroufrou]

thanks for that, i'll get the cable. so once i can see on a screen the various mixes, i can select the one i want and it should all be ok now?

also that OPPO DV-981HD DVD player i mentioned, i'm presuming i don't need this or any other player as i now finally have surround sound?

[cwt]

thats the one i've been listening to, logic 7, sounds good too.

when you say 7.1, i only have the four speakers and the sub, is that setting for if you have a couple of back speakers too?

what about the OPPO DV-981HD DVD player, would that be of any use for me? i can get hold of one for $90.

Thats a good find raymond and its an oppo ; the only thing it wont play is your blurays but the pio can manage that Just setup the bass management in the oppo as l/r main speaker - yes center speaker -no ; surround -yes and subwoofer yes and l;r and surrounds set to small so the sub can handle the low frequencies and redirected lower frequencies from the satellite speakers . Feed the 5 analog cables into the h/ks 6ch in ; you can use single cables or get a custom made all in one braid type - anything with good shielding ..

that OPPO DV-981HD DVD player i mentioned, i'm presuming i don't need this or any other player as i now finally have surround sound?

If you want to hear true discrete multichannel sound ; how the soundtrack was remixed by the sound engineer in many cases; discrete is best . Otherwise a matrix dsp mode is really just an approximation depending on the algorithm thats converting the 2ch track . It depends on what you prefer 2ch or multichannel as well ; many here are happy with 2 ; Ime biased the other way

Edited October 11, 2014 by cwt

[Craigandkim]

deleted post

Edited October 11, 2014 by craigandkim

[iceblinkfroufrou]

it's ok, i had a look at the site first and chose a different cable that matches my monitor.

[iceblinkfroufrou]

i didn't get the oppo btw.

tbh i'm sick and tired of looking at the back of differentl players and receivers, swapping cables around, etc, and not really understanding very much.

it's just so frustrating to me.

[roachy]

Let's go back to the beginning. Your Harman Kardon amp, while I'm sure is a lovely amp, doesn't have HDMI inputs. So you will never get the full SACD multichannel signal from your Pioneer DVD player. The best you will get will be a downmix through the optical, or 2 channel with a fake surround mode through the red and white cables as you have found.

To get a full SACD (or dvd audio) multichannel signal into that amp, you will need a player that obviously decodes SACD (DVD audio) and has multichannel outputs to plug into the "6 channel direct in" input on your amp. Perhaps you may want to look for an older top range DVD player from Pioneer or Denon. Make sure whatever you get has bass / signal management so you can account for having no centre channel etc.

Edited October 15, 2014 by roachy

[iceblinkfroufrou]

i got the cable today in the post, very quick delivery time. unfortunately when it was plugged into the blu-ray player and the monitor the message came up, 'mode not supported.'