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New Epson "pseudo 4K" "laser Reflective" Lcd @ Cedia Us

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And if I said .....and the Atmos thread .... would I be the pot calling the kettle black?

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The emotiva xmc1 chat thread ; for those that arent owners in the main thread :no:

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The current issue of debate revolves around whether the laser will be replaceable?

Laser life in High vs Eco mode may vary from 10000hrs to 20000hrs, but as yet Epson hasn't really confirmed anything .

A hell of a lot of speculation without foundation.

For me, watching only movies in a dedicated theatre room for maybe 10hrs a week I reckon I could live with 15-20 years before replacement. :logik:

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Mmm ; thats the point I was trying to get across Owen ; the 8bit hdmi bottleneck is gone with the epson ..very few projectors are hdcp2.2 compliant as well . Insider information from Kris Deering in the $3000+ projector sub forum ; 4k bd thread @ avs ; coming in stages just like for uhdtv fta which makes sense considering the dearth of movies shot in 4k so far ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1490218-blu-ray-4k-uhd-coming-2015-a-39.html#post27160914

Some incite into the tussle between hollywood and the bda ;

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1490218-blu-ray-4k-uhd-coming-2015-a-39.html#post27167362

Yes sony make a distinction between the 600 and 1x00 series vvv with regard to the p3 colour space also ; the different spectrum mentioned ''one with a different spectrum'' could equate to the laser and reflective tech characteristics of the epson .

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1490218-blu-ray-4k-uhd-coming-2015-a-40.html#post27172314

I read your links, but have to say all I saw was a lot of conjecture about colour space, no facts. The only colour space confirmed to be supported by 4K BD is rec.2020.

If Hollywood do manage to get DCI into the Bluray spec I suspect we will be stuck with if for quite a while. Its a dead end road, dont go down it.

All future 4K projectors should support 10bit and HDCP2.2 because it will be required, so nothing special about the Epson in that regard. Problem is it will likely be only 10bit 4:2:0 which means 4k images will have only 2K colour resolution.

The more I read about the Epson the less impressed I am with it. For a start its not 4k its, 2k e-shift like the current JVC's.

It isn't very bright (1100 lumens calibrated in rec.709 and only 850 in DCI).

Native contrast is ordinary, less than a base model JVC selling for a fraction of the price, and it certainly wont be competitive with the JVC X500 or higher models.

If you do send it 4K source motion interpolation is not available, its probably better to downscale 4K externally and send the projector 1080p 4:4:4 as you can with most 1080 projectors.

Lack of rec.2020 support also makes it a short term proposition, and by the time 4K Blurays are available in any number it will be obsolete and better options will likely be available for a lot less cash, hell they already are IMHO.

The DCI colour support is not a big selling feature as far as I'm concerned. Even if video does become available in that form its not a big improvement. Has anyone gone to the cinema and thought, gee the colour is so much better than what I get at home, not me thats for sure. If anything the picture at home is much better than a commercial cinema.

Substantial improvements in colour will only come with true rec.2020 video and projectors that support it.

Edited by Owen

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The current issue of debate revolves around whether the laser will be replaceable?

Laser life in High vs Eco mode may vary from 10000hrs to 20000hrs, but as yet Epson hasn't really confirmed anything .

A hell of a lot of speculation without foundation.

For me, watching only movies in a dedicated theatre room for maybe 10hrs a week I reckon I could live with 15-20 years before replacement. :logik:

Its a bit strange Dave ; after all the clamoring for a good quality more reasonable price laser projector :logik: I run my 9000 on a 1.0 gain screen on eco and its plenty bright . This 10000 by most reviews has superior calibrated lumens to led based projectors .

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I read your links, but have to say all I saw was a lot of conjecture about colour space, no facts. The only colour space confirmed to be supported by 4K BD is rec.2020.

If Hollywood do manage to get DCI into the Bluray spec I suspect we will be stuck with if for quite a while. Its a dead end road, dont go down it.

All future 4K projectors should support 10bit and HDCP2.2 because it will be required, so nothing special about the Epson in that regard. Problem is it will likely be only 10bit 4:2:0 which means 4k images will have only 2K colour resolution.

Well if you think Kris Deering is telling porkies Ime not going to try to change your mind Owen ;Ive enjoyed his magazine reviews for many years ;) Thats fine if you think contrast is so important ; we all have different wants and this ticks all the boxes for good 3d which is what Ime after . Ekki didnt mind the contrast -

Its maximum native contrast ratio reaches the LS10000 as its conventional lamp colleagues in "dynamic" mode. Depending on the zoom or static Iris (see below) of the projector reaches here a contrast ratio of 25,000: 1 and 40,000: 1st These are excellent values, the Epson undoubtedly would not have to hide. In addition to the JVC D-ILA projectors is us so far no other technique met, the Epson LS10000 here could stand up. The corresponding maximum brightness is 1560 lumens, the next to the factory specifications is docile (1500 lumens)

And he made a note of comparing the more realistic cinema mode to the jvc x500 for its contrast as well..

A calibration of the dynamic mode is alone with the RGB sliders not possible, which is why we resort to the already more realistic cinema / and Natural modes incl. 6500K / D65 white balance. Color Corrects the LS10000 loses about a third of its luminosity, reaching around 1100 lumens maximum with a native contrast ratio of 17,000: 1 and 27: 000: first But this also are still excellent values ​​that are similar to the reference level such as a JVC X500. This is even more striking when one considers that this is the first generation of "Reflective LCDs" from Epson.

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“All content to date is rec.709 so performance to that standard is all that matters for the foreseeable future. Don't expect much in the way of rec.2020 content any time soon because there are no displays that can reproduce it that I am aware of. Even if there where a couple, its not even close to being worth the effort as 99.99% of the Bluray buying public wont have a suitable display any time soon so there is no pressure on content providers.”

“DCI is not a consumer video colour space and its almost certain it never will be, so its irrelevant. Rec.2020 is the future, if your 4K projector cant do it, bad luck.”“Lack of rec.2020 support also makes it(the Epson) a short term proposition, and by the time 4K Blurays are available in any number it will be obsolete and better options will likely be available for a lot less cash, hell they already are IMHO”

Owen, I bow to your superior technical knowledge as I'm on a steep learning curve here, however, I feel that you are contradicting yourself .

Saying you can't get excited about the Epson because it doesn't support rec.2020 and yet also acknowledging rec.709 will be "all that matters for the foreseeable future"

??????????

There will never be a "perfect" picture.

Ekki reckons the Epson contrast is as good as a X500 ( the current benchmark under $7k ??).

I agree with you that >75% of current Bluray discs don't take advantage of the medium, so expecting the studios to fully utilize the 4k Bluray specs is optimistic . So for me this "pseudo-4k" pixel shifting trickery will suffice for at least the next 5 years.

Instant on/off, cooler,quieter operation. Not interested in 3D, so for me this thing would be a light cannon.

Hey, maybe I'm just more of a " half glass full " type of guy. :D:geek:

Edited by IMDave

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I suppose what I was getting at is rec.709 is what we will have for quite a while and DCI, assuming it is used by Bluray at all, is a stop gap and not a big step up.

Hopefully Hollywood will abandon film soon and start shooting in 4K plus digital in wide gamut. By the time 4K Bluray gets going thats highly likely.

If you need a new projector soon and cant wait for Bluray standards and true 4K projectors to get sorted the Epson looks like a good 2K unit with a set of attributes that are unusual and will no doubt be attractive to some buyers. However the rumored price puts it up against the JVC X700, and for 2D thats very tough competition IMHO.

Black level is one thing, how its achieved is just as important. The Epson relies more heavily on its dynamic lighting to get its blacks. The JVC on the other hand has significantly higher native contrast and doesn't need any dynamic lighting tricks. The dynamic iris (if used) is only required for mild enhancement in very dark scenes which is preferable to the Epson approach in my view. The Epson is a bit brighter, but unless you need/want it thats not an issue.

Edited by Owen

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I saw this PJ at the Melbourne A/V show last month. I'm a bit confused about the contrast levels though. The rep at hand told me that it doesn't have a dynamic iris and its contrast ratio is 'infinite' due to the fact that it can reproduce absolute blacks (no light). I didn't expect HN sales person skill levels from an actual Epson product specialist at an enthusiast exhibition but I still find his comments mildly amusing. Can anyone shed any light on this?

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Hi mmu ; it doesnt use a mechanical dynamic iris like a lamp projector but relies on very fast dimming of its leds instead . The 'infinite' contrast claim is just hyperbole [ sounds good doesnt it ] as it can switch its led light path off . With a couple of pixels of light though its contrast can be better judged ; its very good though as ekki has observed :)

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Those lasers need big fans and a clever light path to cool them or ive noticed some led types use liquid cooling :question: Yeah ; I like the sim type curves but needs a black ceiling or something to blend in :rofl:

Edited by cwt

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Thanks cwt. Yes the PQ was pretty dang good! Its just such a huge lump though! looks like a much larger but melted JVC X series!

Mmmm, may even be a little large for the ceiling box I had "planned" to install one in ( ??maybe?? if SWMBO doesn't notice)

An X500 is 454mm x 469mm x 178mm, whereas the LS10000 is 533mm x 550mm x 238mm

cwt, from the promo material the thing looks to be liquid and fan cooled. Would it really run that "hot"?

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IMDave - I don't think the post was meant to imply that the Epson will start melting, rather it has the general look of a larger but 'melted' JVC. This unit was running very cool when I saw it at the HiFi/AV show last month and it had been running for a few hours by then. Even the exhaust air was cool (more so than my Sony95ES would be after a similar period of running).

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Mmmm, may even be a little large for the ceiling box I had "planned" to install one in ( ??maybe?? if SWMBO doesn't notice)

An X500 is 454mm x 469mm x 178mm, whereas the LS10000 is 533mm x 550mm x 238mm

cwt, from the promo material the thing looks to be liquid and fan cooled. Would it really run that "hot"?

As lucmor says its got a well thought out light path cooling system Dave ; as evidenced by its noise level :)

It’s been years! Years since Epson has sold a relatively quiet home theater projector. Virtually all Epson projectors top 30 db at full power, mostly claiming 30 to 33db.Those aren’t quiet numbers they are on the noisy side of average for home theater projectors. This goes back to Epson upping the brightness so that most of their models were at least 1600 lumens, and that’s probably 6 years ago.

But here we have a laser projector. The large dual exhaust out the front barely whisper. Epson’s a little unclear in that they don’t publish the maximum noise. What they claim is 19 db, with pixel shifting (4K processing or 4K content) turned off. They don’t publish a number with it on. No matter, I’ve hardly had that stuff turned off, and this projector is certainly quiet. It’s almost certainly below 25 db, and that’s quiet enough that essentially no one will complain. No dynamic iris to make noise either.

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IMDave - I don't think the post was meant to imply that the Epson will start melting, rather it has the general look of a larger but 'melted' JVC. This unit was running very cool when I saw it at the HiFi/AV show last month and it had been running for a few hours by then. Even the exhaust air was cool (more so than my Sony95ES would be after a similar period of running).

Thanks guys.

LOL........no, I didn't think it would melt.

More a question about whether buying one and installing in my ceiling unit ( open ended front & back, wooden 'box') with only 5cm clearance either side and about 10cm on top)

The exhaust intakes/outlets would have full clearance, so it's nice to know the exhaust air was cool.

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Hi all,

Just saw that Selby has these for demonstration, I won't be buying one any time soon but will definitely head down and check this out when I pick up a new s-video cable in the next week or so.

Aze

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Rule one. Don't believe anything you read on projectorreviews.com, the guy uses uncontrolled photographs to evaluate things like black level rather than direct measurement with reliable equipment for gods sake. Totally clueless and unethical.

Where are the colour calibrated light output and black level measurements?

Where is the explanation that shadow detail is adjustable via the 10 point RGB controls, so cannot be compared to other projectors without calibrating them all to the same standard, which is not done.

Where is the explanation thats "sharper" is not necessarily "better" as most projectors look too bloody sharp with sharpness cranked up and thats not good. More is not necessarily better and is strongly influenced by personal taste.

The list goes on.

Far worse than that. I know of people on this forum that provide opinions on display devices they've never actually even seen in person!

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Folks,

I have one of these now. My new ceiling mount arrived yesterday too so I should be able to get it hung and set up properly over the weekend.

I've run it on a makeshift workbench in my theatre to play around with a few things and early impressions are that it is extremely good. A few things I noticed already:

1. The projector is pretty big and reasonably heavy. It's larger than the Sony VW600 4k and just slightly smaller than the Sony VW10000 4K projectors. A lot bigger than my old JVC 750 and the Epson 9100 that I just sold.

2. Turn the Darbee Darblet off or to a very low setting. The 4K upscaling capability on the projector outshines the Darblet and the Darblet actually screws up the picture if it is run at the same setting I used on the Epson 9100 (around 70%).

3. The fan noise is lower but it can still get up there with the 'Extra-bright' light setting and 4K upscaling on. Not as loud as my old projector though.

4. Very sharp picture and excellent blacks - really good blacks! The best blacks I have seen in my theatre in a long time. The 4K upscaling is excellent and seems to give excellent image depth because the picture is so sharp and clear. It's uncalibrated at the moment so will be able to give a better impression later on.

5. Slower HDMI handshake than the previous projector. It seems to take about 3 seconds to sync once the audio has synced. It could be a number of things because I have video processors and the Darbee in the chain. My signal generators connected directly to the projector sync pretty quickly.

6. Excellent case design (for my requirements) - the connections are recessed quite a way on the back and there is a removable cable cover and cable management hooks on the back. The removable air filter is there as well for easy access. Projector controls pop out of a side compartment.

7. 3D is very clear. Almost no crosstalk (I couldn't see any). Not as dim as I expected. Similar to my 9100 - maybe not quite as bright but I'm splitting hairs here.

8. No USB charger for the 3D glasses included. The glasses are the same as the other Epsons/Samsungs and charge with USB. The batteries were uncharged on arrival but 15 minutes of charging from a laptop had them at 50%.

9. Default brightness control is set too low. The default setting crushes blacks. It needs 1 click at least from the default setting

10. Don't do anything on the HDMI connection (change refresh rate/resolution, aspect and so on) while the lens memory is doing its stuff or it doesn't put the image back in the right spot. That said, lens memory is much faster (and simpler to set up) than the Sony VW600, which is the only other projector I've calibrated the lens memory on (most people still use lenses).

I'll post some impressions once I have a chance to measure and calibrate it.

Cheers,

Jamie

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Thx for the update Jamie and will look forward to your next report.

I am personally hoping that the fundamentals of this unit (lens, light path, laser illumination, case etc) is used for a proper 4K unit in the next 12 months or so and this allows such a unit to be 'reasonably' priced!

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I've spent a bit of time calibrating it now and I have to take back my comment about the lens memory. I've logged a support call with Epson because the lens shift seems to be out with the lens memory, unless you "find" a position it "likes". Once you get it dialled in and able to recall a consistent setting it is fine, but it takes a lot of repeating the process until the lens memory recall is consistent. I now have 3 memories: scope, 16 x 9 and 1.85:1.

Calibration is fun - not!. THX mode has distinct red push - it could be my unit or the factory has something cyan-coloured shining on the screens when they calibrate them. Calibrated to BT.1886 gamma, with ECO mode on, on my 1124mm high perf screen (just to be precise), I'm getting 16.9 foot lamberts (compared with 17.8 in ECO mode on the Epson 9100 when it left). Turning to normal brightness mode and I get around 24 foot lamberts and 33 foot lamberts in Extra-Bright mode.

I remember hearing marketing that the calibration controls were not interactive. Well it's not true. The RGB Gains and Offsets are very interactive (granted they both work on the grayscale), some of the most interactive and coarse I've seen, but I still managed to get a good grayscale. Colours were excellent out of the box and the only error I had after calibration was a 3% error on Cyan saturation. The rest were under 1%. Gamma was pretty good out of the box and very close to BT.1886 once the white balance, contrast and brightness were corrected. Brightness is up at 3, which is unusual. I haven't measured the contrast ratio yet.

It's an excellent picture now. One of the best I've seen. I'm tempted to play with all the different controls to figure out what they do (vs what the manufacturer says they do), but that'll have to wait till I'm a little less tired. Time to relax and watch some content :)

Cheers,

Jamie

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Hi lucmor,

I don't know that you would see much difference on a proper 4K unit if everything is equal and the resolution is the only difference, but I understand your logic. From memory, the ISF maximum seating distance to make out true 4K is 1.5 x screen height. Not many people sit that close and further away means you're seeing "less than" 4K. Resolution, while important, is less important than dynamic range and colour accuracy.

Cheers,

Jamie

Thx for the update Jamie and will look forward to your next report.

I am personally hoping that the fundamentals of this unit (lens, light path, laser illumination, case etc) is used for a proper 4K unit in the next 12 months or so and this allows such a unit to be 'reasonably' priced!

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From memory, the ISF maximum seating distance to make out true 4K is 1.5 x screen height. Not many people sit that close and further away means you're seeing "less than" 4K. Resolution, while important, is less important than dynamic range and colour accuracy.

Good and heartening to read your thoughts Jamie ; enjoy . I could well live without a 4k chipset when the epson can handle all the colour space and hdcp protocols soon to arrive ^_^ Any further thoughts on the 3d vs the 9100 particularly motion and frame interpolation :question: Hope your zoom/ lens memory is sorted out asap .

I knew there was another good reason to have sold my oppo 103 darbee :thumbsup:

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Hi CWT,

3D is a lot better motion-wise than the Epson 9100, but isn't quite as bright. I measured the light transmission at about 20% through the glasses (80% loss), meaning while it is watchable, it's not up to the standard brightness level of at least 12 ftL (7-8 ftL through glasses on my screen). Fortunately, we don't watch that much 3D because it annoys my wife.

Looking at previous reviews of Epson projectors, the brightness and crosstalk seem to be proportional - more brightness equals more crosstalk - and perhaps Epson have taken the less crosstalk route here. Really if you are right into 3D and have a screen over 100 inches, your projector needs to be one of the 2500-4000 lumens ones because the glasses just take so much light away (=500-800 lumens through glasses). At that brightness, typically the blacks will suffer in any reasonably priced projector, so it's up to each person what they are willing to sacrifice. If money is no object, SIM2, Runco, Christie and their ilk can do miracles :)

Cheers,

Jamie

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Hi Jamie,

Sounds like the new projector is going well. How's the scope performance sans lens?

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