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New Epson "pseudo 4K" "laser Reflective" Lcd @ Cedia Us

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This projector is about to announced at CEDIA. It looks like it will use the 'e-shift' technology that JVC has had for a while. The guys at Integrate/CEDIA in Sydney were tight-lipped but did say it would have lens memories, which means finally there's a motorised focus/zoom/lens shift. It's not a true laser projector (you will still have a retina if you look at the lens with the light source on), but instead appears to be the 'laser/phosphor wheel' technology that other projectors are using.

projectorreviews.com are planning to post a review in the next week or so once the NDA expires.

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My house build is looking at prob FEB finish so I'm hoping for some new gadgets to hit the scene by then.

This sounds great.

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Sounds like there will be a few new game changers next year... http://www.projectorreviews.com/pr_blog/epson-ups-their-home-theater-projector-game-with-new-ls10000/

New light engine, new panels too.

Quartz panels (Liquid Crystal on Quartz, that’s right, Epson’s using quartz, not silicon. - See more at: http://www.projectorreviews.com/pr_blog/epson-ups-their-home-theater-projector-game-with-new-ls10000/#sthash.Q6TWomYr.dpuf
Edited by oztheatre

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Sounds like there will be a few new game changers next year... http://www.projectorreviews.com/pr_blog/epson-ups-their-home-theater-projector-game-with-new-ls10000/

New light engine, new panels too.

Quartz panels (Liquid Crystal on Quartz, that’s right, Epson’s using quartz, not silicon. - See more at: http://www.projectorreviews.com/pr_blog/epson-ups-their-home-theater-projector-game-with-new-ls10000/#sthash.Q6TWomYr.dpuf

Is that better than Silicon, Rich?... What are the benefits and pros and cons?.,

Very interesting stuff!

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Is that better than Silicon, Rich?... What are the benefits and pros and cons?.,

Very interesting stuff!

It's brand new tech mate so I have no idea. time will tell.

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Finally a lcos type projector with good lumens for 3d ; if the Epson rgb panels are well aligned one of these this will replace a tw9000 :w00t:

Edited by cwt

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May get even better considering its a pre production unit :thumbsup: Nice comments on how it goes with 4k redray material..

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This is reading very well so far.

Just hope it meets my budget early next year.

Will be waiting to see what else comes to the playing field too.

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Rule one. Don't believe anything you read on projectorreviews.com, the guy uses uncontrolled photographs to evaluate things like black level rather than direct measurement with reliable equipment for gods sake. Totally clueless and unethical.

Where are the colour calibrated light output and black level measurements?

Where is the explanation that shadow detail is adjustable via the 10 point RGB controls, so cannot be compared to other projectors without calibrating them all to the same standard, which is not done.

Where is the explanation thats "sharper" is not necessarily "better" as most projectors look too bloody sharp with sharpness cranked up and thats not good. More is not necessarily better and is strongly influenced by personal taste.

The list goes on.

Edited by Owen

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Rule one. Don't believe anything you read on projectorreviews.com, the guy uses uncontrolled photographs to evaluate things like black level rather than direct measurement with reliable equipment for gods sake. Totally clueless and unethical.

Where are the colour calibrated light output and black level measurements?

Where is the explanation that shadow detail is adjustable via the 10 point RGB controls, so cannot be compared to other projectors without calibrating them all to the same standard, which is not done.

Where is the explanation thats "sharper" is not necessarily "better" as most projectors look too bloody sharp with sharpness cranked up and thats not good. More is not necessarily better and is strongly influenced by personal taste.

The list goes on.

Yeah I tend to agree and have noticed a few of those items missing too.. it's more a blog than a review... but then there's just nothing else out there besides the cine4home guys and they do real contrast measurements but you have to translate their work..

Trouble is I think Art is taking on way too many projectors, couldn't care less about data projectors, they can have crap colour and contrast, it doesn't matter. the home theatre stuff needs to be done properly as some of these machines are big dollars.

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Rule one. Don't believe anything you read on projectorreviews.com, the guy uses uncontrolled photographs to evaluate things like black level rather than direct measurement with reliable equipment for gods sake. Totally clueless and unethical.

Was that directed at Art or Mike who does the calibration Owen ; bit hard to tell ? I dont think your supposed to take the photo's as more than an approximation as he says here ;

Overall skin tones were excellent. They look much better in real life than in these photos. The photos seem to be a little pale with a touch of green/yellow that wasn’t on screen. t can’t say that the calibration had the tightest results, but for those into the numbers they are pretty good.

Personally with these new larger colour gamut projectors I think its a bit of a disservice to compare a bulb projectors rec709 efforts [ which is a compromise to real life ] with the expanded colour gamut that we will get with 4k bluray in a year and which these new projectors can improve on .. Make a note too that this isnt a production unit ; ymmv :)

Mike did a great job, I say that not because of the level of calibration accuracy, but because laser projectors, at least and perhaps some other solid state light engine projectors do have larger color gamuts, which, I tend to think, makes a mere REC709 calibration a bit different than lamp based projectors. That is, getting the best out of a laser projector may require a little more “tweaking” perhaps than the automatic calibration tools most calibrators use. I would have loved to have some DCI content – the same as in the theaters, to really see what this projector can do at its best

.

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Was that directed at Art or Mike who does the calibration Owen ; bit hard to tell ? I dont think your supposed to take the photo's as more than an approximation as he says here ;

My comments where about Art who writes the "reviews'. He uses uncontrolled photos to compare black level and shadow detail of various projectors as he does not have them at the same time to directly compare. He has been doing that for a while, its unforgivable and down right unprofessional. Anyone prepared to do that has no credibility.

Personally with these new larger colour gamut projectors I think its a bit of a disservice to compare a bulb projectors rec709 efforts [ which is a compromise to real life ] with the expanded colour gamut that we will get with 4k bluray in a year and which these new projectors can improve on ..

Unless the Epson can achieve rec.2020 colour gamut, which is highly unlikely, it is stuck with rec.709. There is no in between standard to calibrate to. Trying for rec.2020 and not getting there causes all sorts of problems with colour tracking, not good. For accuracy the display and video gamut MUST match.

All content to date is rec.709 so performance to that standard is all that matters for the foreseeable future. Don't expect much in the way of rec.2020 content any time soon because there are no displays that can reproduce it that I am aware of. Even if there where a couple, its not even close to being worth the effort as 99.99% of the Bluray buying public wont have a suitable display any time soon so there is no pressure on content providers.

Edited by Owen

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Personally with these new larger colour gamut projectors I think its a bit of a disservice to compare a bulb projectors rec709 efforts [ which is a compromise to real life ] with the expanded colour gamut that we will get with 4k bluray in a year and which these new projectors can improve on ..

Unless the Epson can achieve rec.2020 colour gamut, which is highly unlikely, it is stuck with rec.709. There is no in between standard to calibrate to. Trying for rec.2020 and not getting there causes all sorts of problems with colour tracking, not good. For accuracy the display and video gamut MUST match.

All content to date is rec.709 so performance to that standard is all that matters for the foreseeable future. Don't expect much in the way of rec.2020 content any time soon because there are no displays that can reproduce it that I am aware of. Even if there where a couple, its not even close to being worth the effort as 99.99% of the Bluray buying public wont have a suitable display any time soon so there is no pressure on content providers.

So he's wrong when he says things like this vvv and photography cant give a rough idea ? I spose if contrast was the overiding concern Ide understand..

Note that the first image is the Epson LS10000, each comparison image has the projector model in the upper right hand corner. If you click to enlarge, you can quickly click to go between any image and the first one (or each other) by clicking on which ever one you want to view next. The more overexposed the image, relative to the darkest areas, the better the black level performance.

As to rec2020 thats not what Hollywood wants for uhdtv they want something that is superior to rec709 and the epson can handle this ; rec709 is and always was a compromise to fit a blurays video bandwidth and anything that improves that will do me :thumbsup:

One advantage is the huge color gamut. Mike, our calibrator says it has the necessary “bandwidth” to handle DCI (and it has a DCI mode) – the standard for your neighborhood digital cinemas. In other words when higher quality color content comes along the Epson will be up to the challenge, which is something few, if any lamp based projectors could accomplish.
The specific technical requirements put forward within the MovieLabs specification are summarized below: Minimum resolution for UHD is 3840 x 2160 pixels while there is an option for digital cinema 4K format with 4096 x 2160 pixels. The UHD player is required to pass through the video at its native resolution The required frame rates for 2D are from 24p up to 60p with 96p, 100p and 120p being optional The required frame rates for 3D are 48p (24p per eye), 96p (48p per eye) and 120p (60p per eye). The reqired color space is CIE XYZ, which is wider that the ITU rec. 709 color space used with HDTV but not a wide as the color space that ITU has recommended (rec. BT2020) for UHD. UHD Players would be required to support a wide dynamic range for use with displays capable of providing both high peak brightness and high contrast ratios (i.e., with very deep blacks). The target would be to support displays capable to producing peak whites with 10,000 Nits and blacks with 0.005 Nits for an overall contrast ratio of 2,000,000 : 1. The UHD content provider would provide metadata on the recording that would be output by the UHD player to the UHD display to indicate the “chromaticities, the peak luminance and white point of the reference display used to master that video“. It would then be up to the UHD display to apply a mathematical transform, as needed, to adapt the video to the display’s video gamut capabilities. The target encoded bit depth would be at least 12-bits while 4:2:0, 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 chroma (color) sampling would be supported. The specification does note: “MovieLabs and its member studios are studying the impact of color sampling in 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 format. 4:4:4 might yield some advantages in encoding efficiency.”

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So he's wrong when he says things like this vvv and photography cant give a rough idea ? I spose if contrast was the overiding concern Ide understand..

Using uncontrolled photos to compare performance of projectors is a big no no, anyone who has spent time photographing displays and projection screens knows that.

Adding pictures to a "review", and I use that term loosely, makes for a more entertaining web page but serves no practical purpose what so ever, and WILL result in inaccurate conclusions as demonstrated in Arts "reviews".

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story ("review"), is Arts motto.

As to rec2020 thats not what Hollywood wants for uhdtv they want something that is superior to rec709 and the epson can handle this ; rec709 is and always was a compromise to fit a blurays video bandwidth and anything that improves that will do me :thumbsup:

To what wide gamut "standard" are you referring and the Epson can supposedly be calibrated too? When will video be produced to that non existent standard?

Since rec.2020 is unattainable at this time an in between standards would be good. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any such "standard" being considered for 4K Bluray, so it looks like the Epson will never have a use for its extended gamut.

Lamp based projectors can easily reproduce a gamut wider than rec.709, but there is no use for that for video either.

Edited by Owen

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To what wide gamut "standard" are you referring and the Epson can supposedly be calibrated too? When will video be produced to that non existent standard?

Since rec.2020 is unattainable at this time an in between standards would be good. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any such "standard" being considered for 4K Bluray, so it looks like the Epson will never have a use for its extended gamut.

Lamp based projectors can easily reproduce a gamut wider than rec.709, but there is no use for that for video either.

You did in fact read above what Hollywood wants ; for thoroughness its below this preamble ; as Movielabs is a joint venture consortium of studios ;but if you think they dont have any sway on 4k bd standards I honestly dont know what to say ? Whatever standards they come too in any case; dci cinema as mentioned in the review or cie xyz ; if your projector hasnt the capability bad luck .

Hollywood’s Position on Consumer 4K/UHD

In the past it has seemed that the consumer electronics companies have attempted to push a reluctant movie industry to accept new technologies. However, for the introduction of UHD it appears that the major Hollywood studios are playing a more aggressive role in being a advocate for the more advanced capabilities of UHD. MovieLabs, which is a joint venture of Disney, 20th Century Fox, Paramount, Sony Pictures, Universal Studios and Warner Brothers, has issued a “Specification for Next Generation Video – Version 1.0″. The following quoted and summarized material is Copyright © 2013, Motion Picture Laboratories, Inc.

-

The reqired color space is CIE XYZ, which is wider that the ITU rec. 709 color space used with HDTV but not a wide as the color space that ITU has recommended (rec. BT2020) for UHD.

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CIE XYZ is not a colour space, its the way colour spaces are described/plotted. The "talk" is about a wider colour space than rec.709 but less than rec.2020, both of which ARE standards now. This mystery colour space seems in its infancy as there is stuff all info on it and its FAR from being established. Even if it does eventuate it will only be a stop gap till rec.2020 gets traction and takes over.

DCI is not a consumer video colour space and its almost certain it never will be, so its irrelevant. Rec.2020 is the future, if your 4K projector cant do it, bad luck.

The smart move is not to buy a 4K projector until 4K Bluray is introduced and the standards are clear. Until then its all conjecture so we can revisit this again in 2016 or when ever 4K Bluray gets going, assuming it does and thats not certain.

Hollywood are going to be very reluctant to have a repeat of the Bluray fiasco, which they where assured would never be cracked. The current Sony system of dedicated set top box combined with a download service is far more secure.

Hollywood has never wanted you to own media which you could do with what you want, they want pay per view to guarantee long term revenue and I dont blame them.

Edited by Owen

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CIE XYZ is not a colour space, its the way colour spaces are described/plotted. The "talk" is about a wider colour space than rec.709 but less than rec.2020, both of which ARE standards now. This mystery colour space seems in its infancy as there is stuff all info on it and its FAR from being established. Even if it does eventuate it will only be a stop gap till rec.2020 gets traction and takes over.

DCI is not a consumer video colour space and its almost certain it never will be, so its irrelevant. Rec.2020 is the future, if your 4K projector cant do it, bad luck.

The smart move is not to buy a 4K projector until 4K Bluray is introduced and the standards are clear. Until then its all conjecture so we can revisit this again in 2016 or when ever 4K Bluray gets going, assuming it does and thats not certain.

Hollywood are going to be very reluctant to have a repeat of the Bluray fiasco, which they where assured would never be cracked. The current Sony system of dedicated set top box combined with a download service is far more secure.

Hollywood has never wanted you to own media which you could do with what you want, they want pay per view to guarantee long term revenue and I dont blame them.

Agree on the main points Owen but it seems likely that bluray 4k will not be rec 2020 as the 66/100gb discs announced by the bda wouldnt fit a decent length movie with that bandwidth Ide think ? Now how much more likely considering the lesser requirements below is it to see dc1 colour space [ which the epson can handle - its got 10bit processing] or adobe rgb as no doubt some jvc's can do .. Of course if they have a hdmi2.0 input with hdcp2.2 as the epson has .

The Rec. 2020 (UHDTV) color space can reproduce colors that can not be shown with the Rec. 709(HDTV) color space.[8] When dealing with CIE 1931 color space coverage, the Rec. 2020 color space covers 75.8%, the digital cinema reference projector color space covers 53.6%, the Adobe RGB color space covers 52.1%, and the Rec. 709 color space covers 35.9%.[8] Rec. 2020 allows for frame rates up to 120 frames per second (fps)

Anyway it is speculation but ponder this ; why make the t10000 capable of dc1 colour space if epson doesnt know something we dont :)

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I've been searching and could not find any reference to a colour standard other than rec.2020 for 4K Bluray, if you have some info please share.

Rec.2020 doesn't require any more bandwidth than any other 10bit video format, the data the bits carry is just different to DCI. So "bandwidth" is not an issue and no disincentive to go rec.2020.

Projectors have used 10bit or more processing for years, my 2007 Sony drives the imaging chips in 10bit and does video processing in 12 or 14bit. Input has been limited to 8bit simply because there was no need for any more and HDMI did not support it. Enabling 10bit input only requires a new HDMI chip, nothing expensive or complicated.

Extended colour gamut has been available and supported by displays, Bluray and even cheap domestic video cameras for years via xvYCC but has not been used.

DCI = Digital Cinema Initiatives, its not dc1.

Epson are saying the T10000 supports DCI purely for marketing reasons. If it can be calibrated to do it why not should about it, even if it has no practical use in the domestic world. There are plenty of people who buy on spec's, even if they are useless, so never let a marketing edge go by.

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Mmm ; thats the point I was trying to get across Owen ; the 8bit hdmi bottleneck is gone with the epson ..very few projectors are hdcp2.2 compliant as well . Insider information from Kris Deering in the $3000+ projector sub forum ; 4k bd thread @ avs ; coming in stages just like for uhdtv fta which makes sense considering the dearth of movies shot in 4k so far ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1490218-blu-ray-4k-uhd-coming-2015-a-39.html#post27160914

Some incite into the tussle between hollywood and the bda ;

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1490218-blu-ray-4k-uhd-coming-2015-a-39.html#post27167362

Yes sony make a distinction between the 600 and 1x00 series vvv with regard to the p3 colour space also ; the different spectrum mentioned ''one with a different spectrum'' could equate to the laser and reflective tech characteristics of the epson .

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/1490218-blu-ray-4k-uhd-coming-2015-a-40.html#post27172314

Edited by cwt

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Another good review from Ekki ;

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2Ftests%2Fprojektoren%2FEpson_LS10000%2Fepson_ls_10000_test.htm&edit-text=

No cinema filter needed for an expanded colour space ;

"Cinema"
For several generations offer Epson home cinema projectors "Cinema" preset, in which an extended color space the colors of the original cinema to come closer than can our outdated HD standard.Was implemented this extended color space by a "Cinema Filter", which is automatically pushed upon activation of the cinema presets in the light path and unfortunately also absorbed about 70% of the light output by a particularly pure primary color filtering.


Epson_LS_10000_Test_clip_image053.jpg
LS10000: color space "cinema"


Also the Epson LS10000 offers such a wide color gamut at the cinema preset. But this is not generated here by an additional filter, but largely corresponds to the native color space of the laser / phosphor light sources. Therefore no loss of light is connected with the Cinema mode, as in the TW9000er series.

All colors that are shown stronger in the cinema, as it allows the HD standard, are shown faded in our home theater. Color of perfection can be no question here. Even more serious is the difference in relation to reality: Especially in the green area our video standard is so severely restricted that many natural colors of landscapes "true to life" can not be reproduced. For this reason, there are also standards for photographs that exceed our HD or standard sRGB by far, one of the most widely used AdobeRGB.
Edited by cwt

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I'm really interested in this projector so I'm following the TWO threads over on AVS about the Epson LS10k. Looks like it could tick pretty much every box for me ( except the price I expect ).

PS geez those guys over on AVS can be obtuse. Any wonder some of their threads sometimes stretch out for >100 pages. Hijacks left,right and centre. Ekki just spent two pages arguing with a couple of guys about how to set up the dynamic iris in a Sony VW600 in the middle of the Epson thread. WTF?

Thank God this place usually stays on track. :hyper:

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I'm really interested in this projector so I'm following the TWO threads over on AVS about the Epson LS10k. Looks like it could tick pretty much every box for me ( except the price I expect ).

PS geez those guys over on AVS can be obtuse. Any wonder some of their threads sometimes stretch out for >100 pages. Hijacks left,right and centre. Ekki just spent two pages arguing with a couple of guys about how to set up the dynamic iris in a Sony VW600 in the middle of the Epson thread. WTF?

Thank God this place usually stays on track. :hyper:

Makes for some hard reading over there when threads go that long and that off the beaten track.

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Makes for some hard reading over there when threads go that long and that off the beaten track.

LOL Try the JTR speaker thread on AVS....that thing is usually off track lol

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