oztheatre Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 (edited) wipes the floor with bluray massive call rich! Well maybe not wipe the floor but it's certainly a noticeable step up in clarity on a large screen. It has to be, it's a 400% increase in resolution. I think far less noticeable on a TV but on a large projector screen you can appreciate it. Edited August 16, 2014 by oztheatre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 (edited) It has to be, it's a 400% increase in resolution. 400% more pixel does NOT equal 400% more "resolution" because most film source does not even push the limits of 2K. Only a handful of titles do, and most or them are not available in 4K. Yes true 4K source (when available) should look much better, but it will also look better on a 2K display, although Sony wont let you do that comparison with their player as it would screw up their 4K marketing. It seems that Sony are using special sharpening to make content from their deducted HD player look artificially "better" when attached to a Sony 4K display, that's cheating in my view. It would be much more informative to use decent 4K source from elsewhere and use a PC for playback so the same video can be compared on 4K and 2K displays (via down scaling) without any Sony trickery. I would also be interested in seeing what some clever processing on the PC can do for 4K source on a 2K projector. I'm quite sure that a 2K projectors performance could be marked improved and significantly close the gap to a native 4K projector on most source. Edited August 17, 2014 by Owen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oztheatre Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 400% more pixel does NOT equal 400% more "resolution" because most film source does not even push the limits of 2K. Only a handful of titles do, and most or them are not available in 4K. Yes true 4K source (when available) should look much better, but it will also look better on a 2K display, although Sony wont let you do that comparison with their player as it would screw up their 4K marketing. It seems that Sony are using special sharpening to make content from their deducted HD player look artificially "better" when attached to a Sony 4K display, that's cheating in my view. It would be much more informative to use decent 4K source from elsewhere and use a PC for playback so the same video can be compared on 4K and 2K displays (via down scaling) without any Sony trickery. I would also be interested in seeing what some clever processing on the PC can do for 4K source on a 2K projector. I'm quite sure that a 2K projectors performance could be marked improved and significantly close the gap to a native 4K projector on most source. The 4K media server which has actual 4K footage on it would then be more than 400% more res than blu ray given blu ray does even equate to true 2K, hence me saying it wipes the floor with blu ray. I'm not talking about their 're mastered blu rays', you're right there, they are better than blu ray but not by that much at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 (edited) Resolution is measured in visible lines per picture height or width at a given MTF, typically 30%. The pixel count is a separate issue and is always much higher than the actual resolution of the image. "4K" has a theoretical maximum Luma resolution of 2160 lines per image height for 16:9, double that of 2K with its theoretical limit of 1080 lines, not 400% more as you suggest. Chroma resolution is half Luma. 4K suffers greater losses than 2K and is extremely difficult to shoot to a high standard, so 4K can never be double the visible resolution of 2K in actual use and is most instances the difference is not very significant at all. Cinema film is not a 4K medium because when exposed in a Panavision cinema camera the negative has only about 10% MTF at 2K according to Panavision's own tests. Anything below 30% MTF is considered not resolved and is of no real use for cinema applications. This means that 99.9% of Hollywood content is not 4K and never will be no matter how many pixels it is mastered in. I have certainly noticed that the visible resolution and clarity difference between the best Bluray titles and the average is considerable. When high resolution still images are downscaled and displayed via a 2K projector they look much better than anything on Bluray This proves that most if not all movies are not fully utilizing the capabilities of Bluray let alone a 2K display. 4K is therefore going to add very little to the majority of content, the original source is just not up to it. Hollywood has scanned film at around 4K for years, and 4K plus video cameras have been in use for some time as well, however the output format for movies is 2K DCI not 4K, so where is true 4k content going to come from? We sure have stuff all at the moment. Hollywood is not geared to 4K production and dont have their heat in it because they know image sharpness and clarity is totally dominated by mid band MTF performance NOT ultimate resolution which is pretty much impossible to provide for moving images anyway. Down scaling true 4K video to 2K for use with a 2K display will provide more clarity and better colour than is possible with Bluray. MTF (sharpness) will be higher and ALL the colour detail of the 4K image will be preserved in the down scaling because 4K only has 2K colour detail due to 4:2:0 color encoding. To really get benefit out of a 4K projector we need significant changes in the way movies are produced, and get away from 24fps which severely restricts the effective visible resolution of cinema productions. I dont see this happening any time soon and until it does 4K will just be an incremental step in performance over 2K not the leap people seem to think it will be. Edited August 18, 2014 by Owen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oztheatre Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Funny I thought this thread was about helping someone choosing a projector, not a debate about 4K material If you read the OP's comments he wondered about 4K projection 'though, i did have another thought, do i get something a little cheaper now to get me by for a year and then look into 4k pj's' And 3 posts about 4K projectors and material or it's lack of is not exactly a debate. All I was saying is true 4K looks stunning, remastered blu rays not so much and all Owen was saying that there can't be much benefit of 4K until the media is made that way without all the trickery and upscaled nonsense.. It's great information for the average punter to have on hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oztheatre Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Bit antsy there Rich, maybe settle petal and I would still argue that you and Owen are taking over a thread rather than directly answering the OP's question, guess I should be used to it by now............. Nothing of the sort, just facts, useful ones from Owen too. Nobody has overtaken anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngone72 Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 New to the forum and also looking at a new PJ as my faithful 5 year old TW3000 has just about died. Back on track of the original topic did you end up choosing either of these 2 JohnA or are you still undecided??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JohnA Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 New to the forum and also looking at a new PJ as my faithful 5 year old TW3000 has just about died. Back on track of the original topic did you end up choosing either of these 2 JohnA or are you still undecided??? leaning towards the sony mate. Wont be in the new house for at least another 2 - 3weeks so wont make the purchase till i am in and see which way i will go with the room Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackman1503561291 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) 1080 HD has been around for 15 years and even now the only domestic source that even come close to fully exploiting what a 1080 displays can provide is Bluray, and only a handful of Bluray titles do that. 99.99% of Hollywood movies dont challenge the limits of Bluray so its going to be quite while before you will have anything useful to view in anything like true 4K. Remember, pixels DO NOT equal "resolution", and thats plainly obvious when viewing Bluray as the visible difference between most titles and the very best is LARGE., even though all have the same pixel count. Youtube "4K" video is another case in point, it has obviously less actual "resolution" than a good Bluray, even though the pixel count is 400% higher. We have over 300 blu ray's and only about 10 are showing material (some CGI) and Baraka is at the top of the list. You wonder why when you buy a new movie on blu-ray and it looks crap or it looks like a upscaled dvd, not what you expect a blu-ray to look like. Edited August 21, 2014 by Blackman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Baraka is outstanding content and shot on 70mm Todd-AO film, however for video quality and resolution it has been well and truly eclipsed by modern 35mm film titles like "The Tree of Life". Its not a very entertaining movie but is visually very impressive, beautifully shot and shows what is possible. The IMAX scenes from "The Dark Knight" shot on massive film frames are also really impressive as are the various documentary's shot on true IMAX and released on Bluray. There are a few titles shot on digital cameras that look very impressive as well, I suggest "The Art of Flight". Nothing to do with birds or plains but these boys sure can fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackman1503561291 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Baraka is outstanding content and shot on 70mm Todd-AO film. Considering both Baraka and Avatar are both old It make you wonder what they really can do with 1080p if they want to. Sometime I think that they are holding back 1080p only for the reason that it will make a poor copy of 4K look better. We know what camera's they used for Baraka but what did they use to make Avatar and that was I think back in 2010. These two examples look terrific on a 100' Hecto. The colors are super impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackman1503561291 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Very interesting review. http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/5782/tree_life.html Just purchased a copy from Ebay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackman1503561291 Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) Baraka is outstanding content and shot on 70mm Todd-AO film, however for video quality and resolution it has been well and truly eclipsed by modern 35mm film titles like "The Tree of Life". Its not a very entertaining movie but is visually very impressive, beautifully shot and shows what is possible. The IMAX scenes from "The Dark Knight" shot on massive film frames are also really impressive as are the various documentary's shot on true IMAX and released on Bluray. There are a few titles shot on digital cameras that look very impressive as well, I suggest "The Art of Flight". Nothing to do with birds or plains but these boys sure can fly. WOW!!! We watched "THE TREE OF LIFE" today and was AMAZED of the PQ on a 100 inch Hecto. NOTING Comes near it except for Baraka but If I remember correctly Baraka on the Oppo 103D did not have that high of a Video bit rate but The Tree of Life peaked in the early 50's and hung around the mid 40's on most of what I call a Doco. Also what made it more full on was the aspect ration of 1.85.1 How many other have seen this high bit rate Doco. Edited August 31, 2014 by Blackman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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