Pt-Ae8000, Pt-Ar100, Epson 9100 - Input Lag And New Models On The Horizon - Thoughts

[SkadollaX]

Past two weeks have been hard work - trying to decide on the right projector. These are my thoughts...

Just recently our Epson Tw1000 developed a purple tinge in the shape of a smile starting from upper left down to the centre of the screen and back up to the top right. A happy face resembling the joker stares at you not matter whats being displayed.

Its been a great projector, outside of dust blobs and the now permanent smiley face we really have no complaints.

So I thought id stick with epson after a terrible run with panasonic 6 years ago. I found the newest model, read some reviews and was just about to pull the trigger on the 9100.....when.......i encountered a post about issues for gamers surrounding input lag. I almost wish I never had.

2 weeks later and 20 hours of reading and im no closer to finding the right projeor for my needs.

Ive read the epsons suffer input lag anywhere from 64-100+ ms, the 8000 a respectable 34ms(game mode) and the Ar100 an excellent sub 20ms.

As I have a plasma with next to zero lag as well as a tw1000 which is almost as fast....I cannot put those numbers into any real world scenario that I can relate to....?

So how bad is 64ms? Not too bad is what ive read but make an adjustment to normal lamp mode turn off dynamic iris and bang it can get to >100ms really fast. And with all of the posts Ive read nobody has tested anything as simple as a quick reload in gears of war or if guitar hero works without making any latency adjustments in-game. If I had a tw9100 Id answer all of these concerns within days of messing around with one.

So today I finally found a retailer in sydney who ran up demo on the 9100 but I was not as impressed as I was hoping to be...and thats comming from a 6 year old tw1000. Even so, if the input lag on the 9100 was <40ms on paper I would have grabbed it then and there, not to mention the price was pretty respectable as well.

I then asked when the likely release date of the 9200 would be and how much more would it cost. I was told december and that I could get it at the same price. So I did the only logical thing I could think of..I didnt buy one in the hope I could pick up the new model soon with quicker lag times. But hey that didnt work out overly well for those that waited an extra year after the 9000 was released as the 9100 was only a slight improvement.

As Nobody to date has let me test my xbox 360 on a 9100 I cannot comment if the problem has been blown out of the water? But as an avid gamer who loves movies as well, I feel getting a few more months out of my smiley faced tw1000 might be the solution as the new epson might just be the answer to my dilema.

The Pana service/repair was horrendous 6 years ago and unfortunately does not appear to have improved with time. The ae8000 has improved lag over the epsons but worse CS, less warranty on projector and a less punchy image in 3d. Cross talk and ghosting seems to still be an issue on both as is colour uniformity and alignment.

Then I found the ar100 which seems to be a possible solution. The avs forums have nothing but good things to say about the projector, pannel alignment, image, lumen output 2800 and input lag.

But the price, tell em the price son. No 3d, no glasses and yet it still comes close to 2500, you can almost get an 8000 or an 8100 for that much. Is it possible the increased price is due to better qc and workmanship on this model? Who knows but im yet to read any consistent issues with this projector...?unlike the 9100, 8100, 6100 and 8000.

Its just hard to spend simmilar coin on a projector that is missing so many other features, not to mention getting a demo is near impossible. So many of these desisions need to be made blind and the more I get into the game the more I just want to get out and have my tw1000 fixed, if at all possible....

If you have any thoughts, suggestions or real life experience gaming in 2d and/or 3d on any of these models id love to hear about it....

Lol, I think now I need a shrink instead of a projector...

Edited September 9, 2013 by SkadollaX

[cashflag]

Upgraded from a TW1000 to a TW9000 a year and a half ago. I thought the improvement in PQ (brightness, sharpness, smoothness, colour) was phenomenal.

I played Xbox 360 through it occasionally and the lag never bothered me. That said, I'm not into online gaming so much (I suck at it, anyway) so make of that what you will. I now rock a JVC x35 and I am just as happy, gaming wise - perhaps moreso.

Definitely see if you can try out your 360 on whatever machine you're thinking about grabbing.

[stinkfinger]

same dilemma here, look on the thread above re epson, I asked the similar question. There is a new 5200 coming out with bugger all lag however only limited in features, no lens shift. I am not sure what I am going to do either. I play alot of battle field 3 on ps3. We wont be in a position for a while though to sort out our HT room we are going to build our house soon

[SkadollaX]

At this stage im holding out for the yet to be released 9200.

Even though the 5200 has a gaming mode I doubt we will see the same addition to the 8xxx or 9xxx range.

One can only hope...

Though no mention at Ifa bout improved lag times on these models is somewhat telling....

[Brad Cl]

The Sony hw50 has 3 frames of lag (and 2 in game mode). I think that works out to 34ms for game mode.

I recently bought one, quite happy with it. Lag is not a problem in racing simulators.

[SkadollaX]

Thanks brad i did consider the sony but its out of my price range...

Edited September 14, 2013 by SkadollaX

[SkadollaX]

Found this today

http://www.ausmedia.com.au/content/epson-eh-tw-6200-8200-9200-w-projector-price-review

EPSON's New EH-TW 6200 - TW8200 - TW9200 projectors coming in 2014.

Stop press information on EPSON EH TW9200 AKA TW8200

Main changes will be enhanced contrast ratio and more responsive game modes.

More responsive game mode, I sure hope so.....

[SkadollaX]

Last Friday I bit the bullet and purchased a Benq W1070, as I just couldn't be bothered with LCD anymore. Total cost with 4X3d glasses = < $1000

Sick of reading about and experiencing these LCD projector issues: -

1.) Colour uniformity

2.) Sharpness

3.) Flaring

4.) Deteriorating panels

5.) Misaligned panels

6.) Panasonic warranty/repair woes

7.) Complaints regarding lengthening start up periods on Epsons

8.) Input Lag, Input Lag, Input Lag

9.) Ghosting

10.) Cross Talk in 3d

11.) Flickering globes

12.) White screens are never white they are always have tinges of red, purple, blue and worsen with time

13.) Lucky dip lottery on quality of machine you end up with

14.) Bloody dust blob fest

And so on...........

I made my purchase on the W1070 with the mindset it was going to be an interim solution until Epson/Panasonic sorted out some of their issues.

I came across the W1070 once I decided LCD projectors were just to damn annoying for me!

I was going to pull the trigger on the Epson 9100 a month ago but I had to settle for all kinds of known/reported issues and same goes for the Panasonic.

It’s been 8 years since I purchased my first LCD projector and most of the issues with the technology then are still present today.

I remember around 8 years ago getting my hands on a tiny little Benq dlp projector and how impressed I was with the technology over the Sony LCD I had at home. The only issue I had with the Benq was this phenomenon known as the rainbow effect..... It did my head in! But boy have things gotten better with DLP rainbows!

I read some reviews and the W1070 seemed like something I wanted to try. Office Works allows returns so I purchased this unit not even knowing if I could actually mount it in my room.

The W1070 projected onto my 116" screen from the same exact distance as I had my Epson positioned (3.8 metres away). The Epson sat on a server tray, which hung from the ceiling using 4 metal rods. I had to push the server tray up to the ceiling height and hang the W1070 from the tray but always from the same distance to the screen as the Epson. It was a surprisingly easy set-up for me...

I turned it on and WOW!! How can this tiny little projector (under 1000 dollars) make my 5000-dollar LCD Projector (Epson Tw1000) look like utter crap!

11:00am with light entering the room and the curtains were not even drawn in the corridor and yet it still looked better than my Tw1000.

Sure blacks aren’t as inky black as some might think they need....

But I say that because sometimes we get hung up on all kinds of things that we read about, which we wouldn't necessarily care about if we had the chance to see it for ourselves. The overall image on this unit, for me is far greater than having a somewhat annoying iris shifting brightness and making noise. From what I’ve read the native contrast ratio on this thing is better than most LCD projectors and even the W7000.

At this stage all I can say is if you can place a w1070 or w1080st in your room and you don’t have a bat cave then you have nothing to lose but everything to gain!

Pros...

My W1070;

* Displays a white screen as white ! Unlike all of the 3LCD projectors I’ve ever owned

* Makes the same amount of noise as the current Epson’s in normal mode, only the W1070 has no annoying iris sound

* Is a light canon?

* Input lag in low 20ms unlike the Epson’s, which hover around 64ms mark

* Is a 3D projector unlike the Panasonic Ar-100, which retails for around $2500.00 ...that’s 1600 dollars more?

* Can be used with the lights on in our viewing room

* Has absolutely awesome 3D with none of the issues I’ve read still plaguing LCD

* Was used just hours ago to watch Open Season in 3d with some ambient light entering the room and it still looked fantastic

* Makes my entire HD DVD and Blue ray collection POP like never before

* Has very good shadow detail abilities both in movies and games

* Latency in Guitar Hero does not need to be adjusted in game - its spot on

* Gears of war quick reload works like a charm, no input lag woes

* 2D Console gaming absolutely rocks on this thing

* 3D gaming let down by consoles not the projector

* Dare I say 3D gaming should kick ass on the Xbox one and PS4

* My 3d glasses make blacks look deeper in 3D

* Was able to purchase 4 3D 144hz glasses for 110.00 delivered from China in 4 days

Negatives

* I’m sorry but at approximately 900 dollars this thing is doing way too much to even say it has one negative. If you really want to know if something might bother you with this projector at this price point then try reading some of the professional reviews. None are issues for me.

The W1070 is the jack-of-all-trades projector with majors in Brightness, Picture Pop, 3D, Gaming and Input Lag!!!

It was originally my interim projector but now its here to stay.

I don't have a bat cave so maybe I’m not as concerned about blacks but overall what I saw that day of the Epson 9100 on the show room floor........... Leaves me super excited that I didn't spend another 2000 dollars on top of what I paid for my W1070 only to be left to deal with all of the potential issues stated above – just to gain some black levels that I could otherwise better obtain by using a grey screen on my Benq.

Buying an LCD projector makes me feel like im playing the lottery!

Buying this DLP projector makes me feel like I won the lottery! (That’s the best way I can put it)

My search has come to a very happy end !

Edited September 26, 2013 by SkadollaX

[Aze]

hi Skadollax, good to hear you are so happy with your 1070. I was/am thinking of this or tw5200,tw6000,tw6100 but havent viewed any of them yet so am hoping to get to cable connection as they seem to deal in both these. Basically the cheaper the better but I dont want to be disappointed and like you I keep getting confused the more I read lol. Hopefully once I have viewed them I will find if rainbow effect bothers me etc

[SkadollaX]

Good luck....look forward to hearing about your purchase.....

[Owen]

I don't mean to rain on the parade, just provide some info.

People should be every careful how they interpret reviews, most are incomplete and dont provide important and relevant information, while others are down right unreliable, misleading and unprofessional. I would put reviews by Art Feierman from http://www.projectorreviews.com in that category. Art does not seem to have a clue what gamma adjustments are about and how they completely control shadow detail, he also makes judgements about relative black level and contrast between projector models based on uncontrolled photographs rather than actual measurement, a completely invalid method.

Then there is the issue of light output. Reviewers and others on the net often go on about how projector A is so much brighter than projector B or C without testing to make sure that they are comparing apples with apples. For any comparison to be valid gray scale and colour gamut must be close to the Rec709 HD spec, while gray scale is typically adjusted for reviews the gamut is often not.

The other vital thing that must be establish is at what point the projector clips, this is almost never mentioned and usually not checked by reviewers or users. A projector that clips at video level 235 is going to be a lot brighter than one that clips at video level 255, all else being equal. Any projector that passes 255 unclipped can be adjusted to clip at 235 and gain significant brightness and contrast. Some projectors have a lot of head room and can have the contrast control cranked up significantly before clipping or unacceptable colour errors occur and can gain 15% or more light output and contrast over standard factory setup while remaining colour accurate.

You can always get a lot more light output if inaccurate colour is acceptable and many manufacturers take advantage of this to get high lumen numbers, some others dont play that game. Inflating light output also allows you to quote a correspondingly higher contrast ratio number so its doubly good for marketing.

Once various projectors are properly calibrated to the same standards their light output tends to be much the same. The affordable 2000 lumen models usually drop to about 1000 lumens when calibrated and the typically more expensive 1000 lumen models can turn out to be close to spec, not surprising given projectors generally use the same 200 - 230 watt UHP light source. Its not easy or cheap to get more light out without putting more light in.

Having said all this, many people are quite happy with compromising colour to get a lot more brightness and most will never calibrate. As long as they like what they see its all good.

Here is a full review of the Benq from a trustworthy source, its the only one I have seen I would pay attention to as its cover all the bases properly, including gamut measurements at stimulus levels under 100%, a very seldom done but important test.

The Benq scrubs up as exceptionally good value, and for 3D fans it or its more flexible brother are hard to go past.

http://www.avforums....498/Review.html

Edited September 30, 2013 by Owen

[SkadollaX]

I don't mean to rain on the parade, just provide some info"

[/url]

"to do something that spoils someone's plan" ?

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/BenQ-W1070-1080p-Full-HD-3D-DLP-Projector-Review_498/Review.html

"The BenQ W1070 might well be a budget projector but at least it tries to look the part with its two-tone effect and brushed metal finish; it certainly makes a nice change from the usual white plastic chassis. Of course, once you take a closer look the budget nature of the projector becomes more obvious, with a small and rather cheap lens, large grilles with excessive light spill and a noisy fan. There are manual controls for zooming and focussing the lens, which are quite fiddly to use, and unusually for a budget DLP projector there is also a limited amount of lens shift. The remote control is a disaster - small, difficult to use and with no backlight; whilst the 3D glasses, which aren't included, are too big and heavy."

These issues are subjective and as already pointed out previously...

"Im sorry but at approximately 900 dollars this thing is doing way too much to even say it has one negative. If you really want to know if something might bother you with this projector at this price point then try reading some of the professional reviews. None are issues for me."

I disagree with the first paragraph of the avforums review as much of it is subjective and I would say...

*A cheap lens that puts to shame the expensive lens in my previous epson tw-1000.

*Large grills with excessive light that have no impact in our environment

*A noisy fan that is equivalent to the current range of epsons. It is infact less noisy than our previous epson tw1000

*I couldnt really care less if the controls to focus and zoom are manual let alone if they are a tad finicky considering i will not touch it again once its in position. It also does not lose its focus unlike several other projectors on the market.

*This projector was so impressive when I first viewed it that I got off my lazy ass and mounted it into position where lense shift is a redundant issue.

*The remote control is small and easy to use. I like it. Only thing missing is backlight but it so easy to remember the key buttons negating the use of a backlight at all.

*4 glasses delivered in 4 days to our door for 110.00 aud. light and comfortable.

" many people are quite happy with compromising colour to get a lot more brightness and most will never calibrate. As long as they like what they see its all good."

Everyone that sees this little beast is in awe, family, friends, people who generally dont really comment on picture quality.....all have very positive things to say about the image. I know many strive for perfect colour reproduction but there are many who prefer vibrant, dynamic and sometimes overly saturated colours. Its all up to personal taste and sometimes people that hunt down that little peice of perfection arent always happy with what they find.

[Owen]

Easy mate, I didn't say anything negative about the Benq, I simply pointed out that most reviews should be taken with spoonful of salt. That applies to any projector not just the Benq.

I am quite sure that most people would be impressed by any current model home theatre grade projector as they provide images that most people would not believe possible in the home, choosing between them will come down to the finer points. I also have no doubt that plenty of people will prefer brightness over accuracy, thats evidenced by the popularity of LCD TV's.

[SkadollaX]

Easy mate, I didn't say anything negative about the Benq, I simply pointed out that most reviews should be taken with spoonful of salt. That applies to any projector not just the Benq.

Its Ok, but mentioning all that stuff about Arts reviews was somewhat strange? seemed out of place, almost as if you are trying to rain on arts parade and the Benq's ability to produce a bright image? not to mention Ive not talked about him or any other specific reviews/reviewers in my posts.

Since we are on the point, what makes avforums a more trustworthy source?