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alanh

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So many people have been so called quoting my position and getting it wrong I will restate it here.

1. From the start I have always maintained that the main transmitters in Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane, these stations will become band 3.

either by;

  • Being added to the local transmitter multiplexer and using the extra 4 Mbit/s available when SBS starts transmission on channel 7.
    • This is the cheapest method of transmitting community TV which will now have the same coverage area as all other broadcasters being transmitted using the same modulation and power.
    • This will mean that SBS translators can carry the Community TV signal at no extra cost provided the input signal is not via a satellite receiver.
    • It does mean that the LCN will have to be 3# instead of 44 so that the receiver will tune to the correct channel.

    [*]Install 5 new channel 10 digital transmitters.

What is really important is that if there is to be any transmission and or LCN changes they must happen at analog switch off time on the main sites. This is because MATV systems with channel amplifiers will have to be retuned, along with SBS. Also all viewers will need to rescan their receivers for SBS anyway. This is unlikely to be repeated by large MATV systems such as hotels, hospitals etc along with those who cannot retune their receivers themselves. The result is that some of the potential community TV audience will miss out on their programs through cost/landlord or ignorance. The SBS simulcasting in Adelaide and Perth is only one month long.

2. Translators

There is currently only one translator which is MGV66 which is a miniscule 6 Watts, where as the others on the site are 85 W which is also very small. This is its the strongest power because the transmitting antenna is directional.

It would appear that the DBCDE has given in to SBS and now the government will have to stump up over a million dollars a year to subsidise transmission of community TV on channel 10. This does not include the purchase and installation of new transmitters and the disposal of the UHF transmitters which are now no longer required (by the end of the restack).

I have seen no mention of where the funding is coming from to buy receivers and transmitters for the many translator sites in the 5 metropolitan areas. It may never happen, which has been the case sofar except for South Melbourne and that didn't cost much at all.

If community TV does get translator allocations, the only channel left is the Unallocated Channel.

I also recall that some posters said that the community TV will never be restacked because their UHF channel is the same as the unallocated channel in translators. If the translator sites are to get community TV then the main channel will have to move to channel 10. If not the interference in the transmitter's input receiver and the viewers will be intolerable.

Outside the 5 main capital cities there is a UA channel which is unused (with the exception of some Aborignal community TV (not NITV) and is likely to remain so, because there isn't the capacity to produce and pay for community TV licence areas of much lower population. So the use of the UA channel for community TV in metro areas, prevents a national UA channel for other uses. I know some would like it used for 3-D TV using DVB-T2/H265 broadcasting which will not not be possible.

I have had to put this post in a separate strand so it is not surrounded by other's incorrect interpretations.

Evidence

The Government will temporarily allocate vacant spectrum, previously known as Channel A, to the community broadcasting sector, allowing Community TV stations C31 in Melbourne, TVS in Sydney, QCTV in Brisbane and Channel 31 Adelaide to simulcast their services until the switch to digital-only television in capital cities in 2013. A new community licensee in Perth will commence digital-only broadcasts in early 2010.

The Government has also allocated funding support, totalling $2.6 million, to enable the community sector to meet the costs of commencing digital simulcasts.

http://www.minister.dbcde.gov.au/media/media_releases/2009/100 Yes 4 years ago.

Nearly exactly 2 years ago I suggested that SBS and community TV would move to channels 7 & 10 as a result of the http://www.acma.gov.au/webwr/_assets/main/lib312057/clearing_the_digital_dividend-restacking_digital_tv_svces.pdf document.

Alanh

Edited by alanh

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Whoops, trying to rewrite history are we?

Perhaps a review of the thread that you are desperately trying to divert attention from should be performed, by the hapless forum reader that has been sucked into the black morass that is yet another alanh thread. Perhaps its time to query that infamous position you held of there being no temporary simulcast when SBS relocates? Perhaps its time to query your inappropriate antenna advice? Hmm?

No. There's really no need to go into all that again, everyone already knows precisely what you said.

BTW, why are you relying on a government media release when, by your own words, "they don't cut it"? Hmm. Ah yes, another alanh-ism

The result is that some of the potential community TV audience will miss out on their programs through cost/landlord or ignorance.

Especially if they listen to the ignorant advice of a person telling them to use an antenna that isn't built for the frequencies involved. Hmm. I wonder which arm cha well know forum identity's name just sprang into the reader's mind.

Edited by DrP

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I for one wont be participating in this thread, I suggest others do the same.

Edited by nbound

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This does not include the purchase and installation of new transmitters and the disposal of the UHF transmitters which are now no longer required (by the end of the restack).

Very good point Alan. Buying a VHF transmitter is certainly an unnecessary and wasteful exercise - their existing UHF transmitters are perfectly serviceable for many years to come, so they should use them.

I also recall that some posters said that the community TV will never be restacked because their UHF channel is the same as the unallocated channel in translators.

Who? When?

The only one getting user's posts wrong is you. Everyone I saw posting clearly was making reference to the fact that because the B-block sites near cities with community television were all planned to have a consistent unassigned channel that is in most cases the same as the current community TV one, and in others, community TV is intended to move to that UHF channel - the only thing that community TV continuing in its current channel (ex. Adelaide/Brisbane) would prevent is the allocation of new services on the UA channel in those surrounding areas.

As no suggestion has been made of places like Ballarat or the Darling Downs getting community TV, the continuing existence of the channels in their current/post-switchoff positions does not cause any real world issues. Unless someone follows Alan's advice, all receivers for the capitals are at least Band 3/4 capable - and these don't disappear overnight.

Thus while the permanent allocation of spectrum to community TV probably means moving to the block planned positions, it certainly doesn't require it to occur, especially with no current plans for other usage of the UA channel beyond community TV - so the financial situation of transmitting is the only major consideration.

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The only one getting user's posts wrong is you. Everyone I saw posting clearly was making reference to the fact that because the B-block sites near cities with community television were all planned to have a consistent unassigned channel that is in most cases the same as the current community TV one, and in others, community TV is intended to move to that UHF channel - the only thing that community TV continuing in its current channel (ex. Adelaide/Brisbane) would prevent is the allocation of new services on the UA channel in those surrounding areas.

As no suggestion has been made of places like Ballarat or the Darling Downs getting community TV, the continuing existence of the channels in their current/post-switchoff positions does not cause any real world issues. Unless someone follows Alan's advice, all receivers for the capitals are at least Band 3/4 capable - and these don't disappear overnight.

Thus while the permanent allocation of spectrum to community TV probably means moving to the block planned positions, it certainly doesn't require it to occur, especially with no current plans for other usage of the UA channel beyond community TV - so the financial situation of transmitting is the only major consideration.

The only one getting user's posts wrong is you. Everyone I saw posting clearly was making reference to the fact that because the B-block sites near cities with community television were all planned to have a consistent unassigned channel that is in most cases the same as the current community TV one, and in others, community TV is intended to move to that UHF channel - the only thing that community TV continuing in its current channel (ex. Adelaide/Brisbane) would prevent is the allocation of new services on the UA channel in those surrounding areas.

These UA channels on all but the 5 main metro transmission sites will still be free to be allocate when community TV takes up the UA Block A site of channel 10. Provided the power is the same will give community TV the same coverage area as all other broadcasters on that site, except that there will be no community TV signal available. This is because the TV receiving antenna will be pointed at the translator and not at the main transmitter site which would have given an unreliable signal any way. Whether the Government and the ACMA will allocate the UA channel to CTV and fund transmitters is yet to be seen.

I know that you were trying to say that CTV didn’t have to move because the ACMA planners made the UA channel the same as the main metro existing transmitter channel, however I knew from private discussions that channel 10 or SBS would be used. As I said 2 years ago, 2 years after the restack was announced that community TV would go to band 3 and the UHF the were on would be used as required in the restack plan. This also means viewers only need a small cheap band 3 only antenna when they need to buy one. Unfortunately there are still installers installing antennas designed for channel 2 one month prior to the switch off of that channel!

Perhaps lost in another AlanH fud session, a useful link from nbound which gives an SBS view (via Matchmaster - a company AlanH has endorsed with antenna recommendations) about the simulcast timing

If you look at the Matchmaster catalogue, I have only recommended a very small number of products in their range, I did not recommend the company or any other. I have recommended the Fracarro Phased arrays for example but not their LP series because it is not designed for our frequency range.

You have been pushing that CTV will not go to channel 10 any time soon even in the above post. Then go and look at your post on Posted 05 January 2013 - 09:39 PM

Alanh

Edited by alanh

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These UA channels on all but the 5 main metro transmission sites will still be free to be allocate when community TV takes up the UA Block A site of channel 10.

And thus the impetus to move the UA channels will happen if/when there are proposals for the expansion of community TV. Until there is a need for the frequencies in the B block, their lack of interference with the other restacked transmissions means that there is no current issue with them maintaining current services.

Now that the assignment of the UA channel isn't temporary through 2014, I would suggest it is more likely that Brisbane and Adelaide will just move directly to VHF, rather than take an interim step to the alternative UHF channel - but that requires a planning change to occur.

Provided the power is the same will give community TV the same coverage area as all other broadcasters on that site, except that there will be no community TV signal available.

Okay.

This is because the TV receiving antenna will be pointed at the translator and not at the main transmitter site which would have given an unreliable signal any way. Whether the Government and the ACMA will allocate the UA channel to CTV and fund transmitters is yet to be seen.

Yes, the downsides of translator sites. However considering the high cost of transmission and the limited viewers served it is unlikely there will be an expansion. Again that's why I believe the long term solution will be that a third party will operate the multiplex and carry community TV, because it puts the transmission costs on to them.

The media release from the minister highlights that CTV are assigned a portion of the multiplex and not all of it. Though at least now it is a permanant allocation

I know that you were trying to say that CTV didn’t have to move because the ACMA planners made the UA channel the same as the main metro existing transmitter channel, however I knew from private discussions that channel 10 or SBS would be used.

Well done - you had private discussions that confirmed that a decision wasn't made at the time between the two obvious options. I have always said, and I believe all users discussing this issue in past threads understood, that the continuing UHF allocation was an interim measure to allow community television to not impact the restack. It's because the decision wasn't made that the ACMA planned as it did - yet you constantly insisted the planning was showing the allocation of the Block A UA channel to community television.

Even at this point the likely incoming Coalition government with big differences on media policy might well mean that community stations don't dare make plans based on the Labor minister's position.

As I said 2 years ago, 2 years after the restack was announced that community TV would go to band 3 and the UHF the were on would be used as required in the restack plan.

What you said 2 years ago doesn't matter. The decision to allocate spectrum long term happened this week, and the current planning as of today is still for the community stations to continue on UHF.

The fact your post in this thread goes on about Channel 7 should demonstrate the situation that the planning was in, again - no decision was made until the decision was made this week. Planning thus was on the basis of the then current decision to continue the current situation into the near-mid term future.

This also means viewers only need a small cheap band 3 only antenna when they need to buy one.

Which everyone will agree is the right course of action once the transmissions reflect that situation. Once all services in an area are on Band 3 and the signals are measured to check that the main transmitter sites are the best ones to service a particular viewer - then of course you'd install a band 3 only antenna. But at the moment that is not the case - until it is, there is total justification for installing Band 3/4 antennas, and indeed it should be the only option, as you can't guarentee reception of SBS7 or a future community service on 10 - just being on the same band and same power doesn't make the received signal identical.

The cost differential is minor (indeed negative in some examples you've had of recommending a more expensive VHF only antenna over the ones being considered) and unless the UHF reception is causing problems, there is no need to actively stop installing them even once the channels are all on VHF.

Unfortunately there are still installers installing antennas designed for channel 2 one month prior to the switch off of that channel!

I'm sure some of them are endorsed installers too.

If you look at the Matchmaster catalogue, I have only recommended a very small number of products in their range, I did not recommend the company or any other. I have recommended the Fracarro Phased arrays for example but not their LP series because it is not designed for our frequency range.

My point in mentioning that (not sure why it has taken you this long to reply to that) was to pre-empt you considering their site an unreliable source of information by highlighting your own reference to it. The fact time has proven their chart to be consistent with later official documents now puts that beyond doubt.

You have been pushing that CTV will not go to channel 10 any time soon even in the above post.

So when do you predict it will move to channel 10? I think it will still take some time - it is not an urgent move, so there's no need to rush out to get appropriate equipment - perhaps community stations could reuse equipment made redundant by VHF to UHF moves in the restack, and continue on UHF in the interim.

Then go and look at your post on Posted 05 January 2013 - 09:39 PM

Sure. It's here for anyone who understands links.

Firstly, I attempt to explain to you that the Indicative restack chart is a valid document and that it highlights the moves that are planned.

Secondly, I point out that the expiry date of the broadcasting licence for MGV on 32 was an indicator of the then true fact that they only had a temporary digital licence. The minister's recent announcement has the effect of extending that permanently - though will need to back that up with regulatory action.

Third, I again try to point out that at that stage the UA channel was not assigned to community television - they had temporary access to that spectrum - but otherwise the channel is still unassigned.

Fourth, more attempts at highlighting the difference between an assigned and unassigned channel.

Fifth, I make the then true statement that a decision had not been made on the future of the community television assignment, and that the current arrangements with some exceptions would continue until a decision is made.

Sixth, I point out the one month duration of the SBS simulcast in Adelaide, and the current plan to move CTS to a different UHF frequency.

So - I'd say that my post was totally true at the time, made predictions that later came true and is now partially superseeded by the recent ministerial announcement.

Edited by GoForMoe

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Is that the light from China that I see down the hole that alanh is frantically digging?

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Alanh has added no value through opening this thread. His first post consists of a characteristically semi-coherent sequencing of points, and a characteristically unclear and unreferenced allegation:

I also recall that some posters said that the community TV will never be restacked because their UHF channel is the same as the unallocated channel in translators.
Who? When?

GoForMoe has more patience than most, in explaining relevant matters yet again to alanh.

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GoForMoe has more patience than most, in explaining relevant matters yet again to alanh.

I've noticed he very rarely responds to me - I suspect these two facts are linked.

As I've said before - Alan has a very privilaged position on this site, both having the senior member badge and having threads stuck in nearly all sections of the forum - one that I first found nearly a decade ago linked off the DBA website as the official forums, no doubt many still associate it as such. I believe that makes it more important to correct the record with his posts - and I personally enjoy the knowledge I usually can gain by double checking reality in doing so.

It is extremely unfortunate that he is now seemingly driving away some really good contributors, hopefully nbound's greener pastures are ones I frequent.

Edited by GoForMoe

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MLXXX,

There is no more B channels, they disappeared with the restack. You can see from the channel tables there is only one UA channel there is no UB channels anywhere.gg

As for moving CTS to another UHF channel, that is old news, prior to the Minister's recent decision to move main metro transmitters for CTV to channel 10. As I have predicted it would go to VHF all along.

Why do you think I am still on this site from the beginning, it is because I have more than half a million views and many thousands of downloads.

Also even under provocation from a small group of posters who know who they are, I have never use rude, insulting language.

Alanh

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MLXXX,

There is no more B channels, they disappeared with the restack. You can see from the channel tables there is only one UA channel there is no UB channels anywhere.gg

As for moving CTS to another UHF channel, that is old news, prior to the Minister's recent decision to move main metro transmitters for CTV to channel 10. As I have predicted it would go to VHF all along.

Why do you think I am still on this site from the beginning, it is because I have more than half a million views and many thousands of downloads.

Also even under provocation from a small group of posters who know who they are, I have never use rude, insulting language.

Alanh

The text I have highlighted is a bald-faced lie.

A more correct statement may be:"I have never used profanities when I constantly talk condescendingly* to other posters".

*Condescendingly:adj.

Displaying a patronizingly superior attitude

Which is of course insulting people.Seeing you're a wanna-be intellectual,I figure you figure the rest of us are too dense to work out that by talking down to us you're being insulting.The funny thing is,you're probably lucky to have an IQ over 100 (I'm being generous),and yet in your mind you're a ****ing genius.You fail completely to see that,to all but a handful of newbies here,you're a deluded,befuddled old man raging against everything and everyone.

You never,ever acknowledge your own (frequent) mistakes;you never provide direct proof when your "facts" are constantly disproved by the actual intelligent posters of this forum;you never reply in a polite friendly manner on the rare occasions you do reply to a direct post (which you only do to regurgitate your previous misinformation)...

Seriously-why are you here? My guess:you've successfully driven every single person that's ever been in your life away from you with you constant,desperate desire to be RIGHT! And the ego-maniacal obsession with being HEARD! (or read,if you prefer) and,as a result,having absolutely nothing else to do with your time these days.

Or maybe those in charge (!) here genuinely do let you ramble solely for the "hits" your bullshit brings in others attempting to correct you.

Edited by dbrmuz

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Guest Malich
As for moving CTS to another UHF channel, that is old news, prior to the Minister's recent decision to move main metro transmitters for CTV to channel 10. As I have predicted it would go to VHF all along.

Except for all the times you predicted it would join SBS's mux, or stay where it is (e.g. here, here, or here).

(edit: link to search of "community TV" in Alan's posts removed as it did not work properly.)

When you predict the 3 most likely possibilities, is it any wonder one of them eventually turns out to be correct?

Why do you think I am still on this site from the beginning, it is because I have more than half a million views and many thousands of downloads.

That's a specious argument; quantity has nothing to do with quality, and only a fool would claim it does.

Or are you saying you post mainly as a game to collect views & increase your post count, and are more interested in big-noting yourself than discussing possibilities or technical details, or learning the truth?

Also even under provocation from a small group of posters who know who they are, I have never use rude, insulting language.

Well, that's another Alan Hughes lie that's easily disproven...

(edit: Note that Alan's original post was removed by the mods - not at my request, mind you - presumably because of the "rude, insulting language" he used...)

Edited by Malich

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When you predict the 3 most likely possibilities, is it any wonder one of them eventually turns out to be correct?

This.

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I noticed on the My Switch website there is a new section called retune information and it has given a proposed date of the 18th March 2014 for the digital TV restack for Sydney. Where this relates to this topic is that it looks like SBS will not move to Ch7 straight after the analogue switch off, it is also proposing that community TV Sydney will stay on Ch29 post March 2014. If this is the case a band 3 antenna only will be the wrong choice of antenna for people wanting all Sydney digital channels. The situation regarding community Tv could change between now and the completion of the restack, it will be interesting to see what happens.

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Why do you think I am still on this site from the beginning, it is because I have more than half a million views and many thousands of downloads.

You have been here since 06 Sep 2003 (less any periods of suspension) because of the high tolerance shown by moderators, despite the hundreds of posts complaining about your approach to posting on this forum.

This forum is rarely moderated. It is remarkably laissez-faire. Members are expected to exercise self-discipline.

I have been here since 10 Sep 2003, simply because I chose to register on that date.

Also even under provocation from a small group of posters who know who they are, I have never use rude, insulting language.

Actually I find a great number of your posts discourteous, as you appear to take little trouble to read and understand what you are commenting on. And you appear to take little trouble to check the accuracy of your own facts, and the clarity of your own explanations.

In addition, on a wide variety of different topics I find you frequently accuse others of being wrong or ignorant, when -- if I bother to look into the matter -- they appear to be right, and well informed. Oftentimes you have simply misread the post of the other forum member.

I noticed on the My Switch website there is a new section called retune information and it has given a proposed date of the 18th March 2014 for the digital TV restack for Sydney. Where this relates to this topic is that it looks like SBS will not move to Ch7 straight after the analogue switch off, it is also proposing that community TV Sydney will stay on Ch29 post March 2014. If this is the case a band 3 antenna only will be the wrong choice of antenna for people wanting all Sydney digital channels. The situation regarding community Tv could change between now and the completion of the restack, it will be interesting to see what happens.

Yes it will be interesting. Advice to install band 3 antennas immediately in Sydney, or many other locations, would appear to be premature.

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